Episode 130
Belonging matters
What if you were unapologetically you? What impact would that have on your work, life and relationships?
Unfortunately, too many of us aren’t prepared to bring our whole selves to work… or even life. We either create a mask or hold back on what’s really wanting to be seen.
When we’re not prepared to show our full selves, it means we may not allow others to show their full selves too.
This disconnection doesn’t help in work or life. It limits what’s possible in what we do and how we act.
Vanessa Belleau is an inclusion and belonging consultant, as well as executive coach. She works with individuals and organisations to create more inclusion and belonging at work. She’s both unapologetic and humble as well as serious and joyful in her approach.
How can we create belonging in a world that feels more and more polarised? What does it mean to find belonging for ourselves while celebrating our differences?
When Carlos first started out in business, he wasn’t sure if he belonged in the business world. He didn’t feel able to conform to the norms, so questioned whether this was the space for him. He had similar feelings growing up when I’d get teased for how he looked.
Being different felt bad. However, fundamentally we are unified by our basic human needs and experiences. If we tap into these, we can let go of the idea of being separate and feel more permission to take space, which then frees us up to be more us and do the work we’re supposed to do.
We’re all called to contribute in our own unique way. Let’s embrace this uniqueness so that we can impactfully collaborate and contribute by being ourselves.
Links
Transcript
So my name is Vanessa Belleau and I say it's again because I'm French.
Vanessa:You may have noticed now.
Vanessa:But people call me VB.
Vanessa:I have my own business.
Vanessa:I've been an entrepreneur, which is actually only a word really, that I use this year because now I understand that, okay, this is me now, took me a minute.
Vanessa:But I have my own business.
Vanessa:It's called High 15.
Vanessa:And within high 15, I'm a solopreneur, but what I do is three key things.
Vanessa:The first thing that I do primarily these days is actually diversity and inclusion, but actually belonging strategies.
Vanessa:And I say strategies because a lot of people will say, yes, I'm a coach, I'm a consultant, which I am.
Vanessa:But I think it's very important actually to take, or consider belonging or diversity and inclusion as a business strategy.
Vanessa:So that's the first thing that I do.
Vanessa:And I have a lot of clients who care and I'm very thankful for that.
Vanessa:And we want to make it part of their DNA in their every day.
Vanessa:So that's why the strategy is needed.
Vanessa:I'm also an accredited executive coach.
Vanessa:I've been doing this for a few years.
Vanessa:That's because I thought, okay, you know what?
Vanessa:I need people to change or to see the light, and maybe change their behaviors.
Vanessa:And the only way for me to do that is to learn how ,to you know, ask powerful questions and get people to really connect to themselves.
Vanessa:And I did, I recognized maybe that I didn't have the skills, so I studied and I got accredited.
Vanessa:My background actually, before doing diversity and inclusion, which I started in 2017, is in mar comms and trend forecasting.
Vanessa:So I also then in my business advise on inclusive marketing, uh, because I have a principle that I call the synchronicity between the internal and external expression or experience of the brand.
Vanessa:And so in this capacity today, I can really help a brand to show up in a inclusive manner, promoting belonging, but also by working on the infras, the internal infrastructures so then employees feel also like they belong.
Vanessa:Because too often I see companies not treating their employees like their clients.
Vanessa:And that actually, I think it's baffling.
Vanessa:I don't understand why we don't do that.
Vanessa:So that is me.
Vanessa:So I do the three key things and I paint also.
Vanessa:I I'm an artist in my spare time.
Vanessa:And now I'm a vegetable grower as well.
Vanessa:Wow.
Laurence:Actually, a quick question before we go.
Laurence:I'm curious to know your love of color.
Laurence:You're calling your dog Purple, The artwork, is that always been there?
Vanessa:Yes.
Vanessa:I'm French Caribbean.
Vanessa:Right.
Vanessa:My mom is from Gulu, my dad is from Martinique.
Vanessa:And I don't, I think in our car, the Caribbean culture, when I saw fabrics or any pictures, you know, and we even a picture of food is so colorful that, I don't know.
Vanessa:I think, yeah, I've always connected to color in a very emotional way actually.
Vanessa:And also I think it's because I'm a black woman, and I think, you know, when you are, you know, black is such a, some people would call it a non-color.
Vanessa:And I remember my mom actually wearing a lot of colorful clothes and because she just wanted to express herself and not feeling dragged down, I think by whatever weight was put on her, you know, by the society.
Vanessa:So yeah, color is definitely something that speaks to my soul, and that enables me, I think, also to connect and communicate with others without words,
Carlos:You, you talked about tapestries or cloths or something like that, and it was quite interesting 'cause I, I get the sense that you've woven various threads of your life into this single tapestry that you are, of your work right now.
Carlos:And I had a conversation earlier this today about this idea of the midlife reset.
Carlos:This idea of like, okay, I've done lots of things up until now, not necessarily serving in me in the way I want to be served.
Carlos:Wanting to do more work that is aligned to who I really am.
Carlos:Then the question, who am I?
Carlos:First thing.
Carlos:But then there's also, you know, there's a wealth of experience and knowledge and, situations that I've I've been through in my life, how do I weave them together into something that seems meaningful and purposeful?
Carlos:And in your intro and then your sharing of this, yeah, this rainbow of things that you've done in your life, it's now coming together into something that feels very grounded and directed.
Carlos:And also you said something about being more comfortable to call yourself an entrepreneur now.
Carlos:So in sense, it's a two prong question.
Carlos:It's like, how is this emerged or was it always clear that you were gonna go in this direction?
Carlos:And then what is the, what was the shift of being from being uncomfortable being to being comfortable about calling yourself an entrepreneur?
Vanessa:Okay I'm French, as I said, I came to this country, so to London, to the UK and to London 18 years ago.
Vanessa:And France has, is the very elitist, I think system, just simply.
Vanessa:So, I have two master's degrees.
Vanessa:I went to a business school and you know, like, and you feel, I always felt that it was even not, that was not even good enough, you know?
Vanessa:Because it's not going to a business school.
Vanessa:You need to be going to the best business school to the top three, to the top one, you know, to.
Vanessa:So I always had this feeling of whatever I can do or will do or could do in this country in France was not good enough.
Vanessa:Because I, you know, it's like this expression that you have in English, like, you know, you always have kind of to chase your tail and, I don't know, like start again and not feeling worthy and you have messages as well that was really served to me to tell me that, because I was a young, and I used to say this to my parents all the time.
Vanessa:I was like, you know, mommy, daddy, I'm a young black woman, you know, ambitious.
Vanessa:And yes, I was born with 12 fingers, but you know, I'm different and that's okay.
Vanessa:I'm embracing that.
Vanessa:And I think there is all this this drive in me that I was like, okay.
Vanessa:But I never at any moment in time think or thought that, oh, I would be, I would have my own business one day because my own business meant that in my head anyway, meant that people come to work with me, for me, not for me, ie underneath me, but because I'm me.
Vanessa:And I was just like, ha, this is never going to happen.
Vanessa:So then I came to this country.
Vanessa:I felt freed of quite a lot of that baggage, that weight, but actually this was still not within my grasp.
Vanessa:I just never thought I would, I didn't think maybe I was excellent enough.
Vanessa:I didn't think, you know, I, I have self-doubt anyway, but, you know, I was really thinking maybe yeah, you don't have it, you know, you just don't have it.
Vanessa:Until a client, so four years ago I was so I've always been a consultant.
Vanessa:I've always worked with agencies or four agencies.
Vanessa:And I've had a very successful career.
Vanessa:Career.
Vanessa:I got promoted, rewarded.
Vanessa:At the, you know, the last big job I had, I was a director of Europe, middle East and Africa.
Vanessa:When it comes to trend forecasting.
Vanessa:I was traveling all the time.
Vanessa:I was meeting those fantastic people, and people were, and I, and my job was to tell stories, to enable people to see the future and to get ready for the future.
Vanessa:It was so empowering and beautiful.
Vanessa:And one of my clients in the UK who was the world estate company, and that was my only clients in the uk when I decided to leave that job because health.
Vanessa:And the universe told me, okay, Vanessa, it's cute that you're traveling all over the world and things, but you're not taking care of yourself, so you must stop in and reflect.
Vanessa:Is this for, are you doing it because of your ego or are doing it because you know you really believe in this?
Vanessa:Anyway, I decided to step back.
Vanessa:I said, though, this company said come and work for us, right?
Vanessa:We they got me a, there was a big opportunity.
Vanessa:I took it.
Vanessa:But then after 18 months in the position, I, they were like, you don't really do politics Vanessa.
Vanessa:I was like, no.
Vanessa:Then they were like, okay, do you want to have, we love your work.
Vanessa:We love your mind, your what you bring to us.
Vanessa:Do you want to have your own company?
Vanessa:If you do, we'll be your client.
Vanessa:And so I didn't have to then entertain this idea that I was not excellent enough or anything because I had somebody believe in me.
Vanessa:And also my money mindset at the time I was very risk averse.
Vanessa:'cause I was scared.
Vanessa:I'm alone in this country, you know, like.
Vanessa:When I say alone, I don't have family and things like this.
Vanessa:So I was really like, oh, okay, if they are going to be my client, then that means that I'm set.
Vanessa:It's okay.
Vanessa:And so the entrepreneur life got served basically, you know, it's not something that I chose necessarily.
Vanessa:I did choose 'cause I did say yes eventually.
Vanessa:It took me a minute, but I did say yes.
Vanessa:And here I am.
Vanessa:First six months.
Vanessa:First year I was like, okay, that's really good, but I'm doing well.
Vanessa:But this is luck.
Vanessa:And this idea of luck also, you know, I had to work on that a lot.
Vanessa:And then four years later, I'm still here.
Vanessa:Disney is not my client anymore.
Vanessa:And I'm like, well, we're still doing this.
Vanessa:So must there must be something there.
Vanessa:So last year I realized, I was like, Vanessa, you need to start calling yourself an entrepreneur.
Vanessa:And just think, you know that, and connect to that and be okay with this.
Vanessa:So yes, that's just a little story simplified of how I got there.
Carlos:That's wonderful.
Carlos:I think there's so much there.
Carlos:There was a call.
Carlos:And I sounded like very much this health-based and just lifestyle choices that were required to be adjusted because of that.
Carlos:There was luck, like you said, or serendipity.
Carlos:There was a an opportunity to make that switch.
Carlos:There's, there's sounding like there's self-belief that you could do that as well.
Carlos:You know, as much as, yes, you got a client who's willing to pay you, but you also need to step into those shoes and say, okay, all right, I'm gonna stand on my own and, and I am going to be the person to help you.
Carlos:The final bit, which I find most resonant to the kinds of work that we are doing.
Carlos:It sounded like they're gonna pay you for being you.
Carlos:They want you.
Vanessa:Yeah.
Carlos:And, and that's such a while.
Carlos:We don't want to be validated by other people.
Carlos:That's quite a personal validation of like actually being you is valuable.
Vanessa:You know, you said, we don't want to be validated.
Vanessa:I want to be validated by others.
Vanessa:That's what belonging is.
Vanessa:We'll get to that.
Vanessa:But, you know, you want to be validated by others, actually.
Vanessa:Because this, for me, not wanting to be validated by others, that's a lie that we tell ourselves.
Vanessa:You know?
Vanessa:And that's arrogance.
Vanessa:It's misplaced arrogance.
Vanessa:I love to be validated by others.
Vanessa:Listen, I wanna be validated by Purple with my dog.
Vanessa:You know, sometimes I tell her I feel, you know, like we have fantastic conversations.
Vanessa:The two of us, even though she doesn't speak, but this is what I mean, like, you wanna be seen.
Vanessa:You wanna be you valued equals validated somehow.
Vanessa:Do you see what I mean?
Vanessa:And we must tell ourselves the truth.
Vanessa:So I want it to be validated, yes.
Vanessa:And and that's what happened.
Vanessa:And I think with that comes an increase in self-belief and commitment and engagement also, that then enables you to feel like, okay, I, we can, and it's a we can do this.
Carlos:Yeah.
Vanessa:That's quite nice.
Carlos:And I think this is nicely for transitioning to maybe more about the work that you do and, and the, and the wish that you have for others and organizations, people what, you know, however you want to class that.
Carlos:But this sense of engagement, the sense of being valued, the sense of being in the right place as I'm hearing it and then connecting to your, what you're talking about, having that sense of belonging is a valuable business strategy.
Carlos:And so maybe we could explore a bit more about that in terms of, and I'm gonna connect it and again, a bit more to our work because I assume that only certain organizations or people recognize that, and that essentially creates your niche in terms of, again, correct me if I'm wrong because I, it sounds like the work that you do, people need to be ready to do it or else it's not gonna be done.
Carlos:And so you present yourself in such a way that you will attract the right organizations.
Carlos:And I'm just curious to hear what that means for you in terms of doing the work.
Vanessa:So, the way that I work in my business.
Vanessa:So first, I, there's one thing that I have to really tell myself every day is Vanessa, we choose joy and we choose not to judge people.
Vanessa:I have to remind myself of that every day, because sometimes I really want to tell clients, you know, like, I'm judging you, you know?
Vanessa:Like, I really wanna go like this.
Vanessa:I like, okay, like, we do that.
Vanessa:Choose joy and we're not judging.
Vanessa:Because we all different backgrounds, we all come, we all have a different understanding of and experience of life, right?
Vanessa:So that's, that.
Vanessa:The way that I run my business is that actually I allow therefore for people who are on the, let's say zero to 10, so, and I start my scale at one to 10.
Vanessa:Zero, 'cause if you're down to zero, then I'm not for you because this, my job is not to convince you that this matters.
Vanessa:But if you are at least on a one, my job is to get you to believe in the one and to get you to, from the one, to the two, to the three to the four.
Vanessa:But I don't work only with people who are on a five plus, let's say, because I think that would be not inclusive, but actually exclusive.
Vanessa:Right?
Vanessa:And therefore, in the way that I run the business is that I do different things.
Vanessa:So with some clients who are potentially, and I have a strategic framework and things, so I can actually understand are you doing this because of a compliance piece?
Vanessa:Are you doing this because you are, you want to really discover what this is about?
Vanessa:Are you doing this because you commit and you want to do more?
Vanessa:Are you doing this because you are championing this and it's a non questionable and you wanna be the best that you can be in this moment in time?
Vanessa:Are you doing this because you now have, you know, the last stage is innovation, you understand that it's all about innovation.
Vanessa:And so for me as, even if somebody is at a compliance stage.
Vanessa:I need that compliance stage still to be the best that it can be.
Vanessa:So we are going to review policies.
Vanessa:We are going to, and I'm going to challenge you in your biases, in your health biases and in your beliefs that you know, and your understanding of inclusion and belonging.
Vanessa:I just do believe that we, everybody has got an opportunity to learn.
Vanessa:Everybody has got an opportunity to do better.
Vanessa:And who I don't have, as I said, again, I don't have kids, but I, who are we?
Vanessa:And even, you know, for those who have kids, who are we to judge somebody else to say, I'm better than you and you're not worthy of getting support if you want it, if you are at least at a one?
Vanessa:So sometimes I will just do deliver training and it'll be an inspirational talk around, you know, why diversity matters.
Vanessa:Sometimes it'll be a, a three hour workshop, so that would be maybe a half an hour.
Vanessa:Sometimes it'll go to an hour.
Vanessa:Sometimes it'll be a three hour workshop.
Vanessa:Sometimes clients will be like, you know what?
Vanessa:We understand and we think, depending on the positioning also, we think that it's something that we can embark on, then that becomes a retainer.
Vanessa:And I'm there once a week or once a month.
Vanessa:Do you see what I mean?
Vanessa:So my, the model, because I work by myself, I had to really think about elasticity and scalability for myself and think about how do I apply my greatness and share some of that with people, with that.
Vanessa:And by giving them some tools.
Vanessa:Because what I'm very focused on is my purpose is really to get people to focus on what matters, right?
Vanessa:To, to their, to customers, to, to, and to their employees and to themselves actually as an executive coach.
Vanessa:And I really want people just to know we can all do better.
Vanessa:And yes, the negative emotions are not going to help us get to wherever we need to be in that world, or in my image in the world, anywhere, which is a place where it's close to, actually a Summercamp where we then singing Kumbaya, you know, like Kumbaya, but it's us being closer together irrelevant, irrelevant of our backgrounds and differences.
Vanessa:And in order to do that, I have to practice that.
Vanessa:So I can't just be like Uhuh, no, but if you are to zero, I'm just telling you here are some resources, similar with it, come back to me.
Vanessa:It is never a no.
Vanessa:It's maybe not yet.
Carlos:Well, I'm hearing the kind of mission driven aspect of what you do.
Carlos:And essentially the more people that adopt and learn from you and, and take on this more, take on belonging as something that's core, then the world will be a better place.
Carlos:But then you are one person.
Carlos:You have only so much energy.
Carlos:You can't be banging your head against every brick wall that comes to you.
Carlos:And so there's, what I'm hearing in terms of your one to 10 scale, there's a journey of awareness, a journey of ommitment that people need to go on and you can facilitate that depending on your capacity and their commitment.
Vanessa:That's it.
Carlos:And so with that, and I'm, maybe we can start, talk to a very specific example just to think about, to help understand the way you work.
Carlos:We have Dennis here, he's an agile entrepreneur enterprise coach and looking for ways of creating community in a large corporate.
Carlos:And I'll just get maybe any stories or reflections that you have about what, what are the challenges that you've seen with that?
Carlos:What things have you seen needed to be addressed in order to get that sense of community?
Carlos:And maybe even talk to, you know, is community the word that you would use for this?
Carlos:And how does that relate to your work and this idea of belonging, particularly in the business?
Vanessa:Yeah.
Vanessa:I use the word community rather than family, that's for sure.
Vanessa:When people tell me we are family, I'm like, no, you are all liars.
Vanessa:Because unless you say we are, you know, like a dysfunctional family, then I'm like, okay, now we are saying the truth.
Vanessa:But the idea of community, I like that a lot because it's about, so, as I said, my background is in Marks, right?
Vanessa:When we look at it from a marketing perspective, we say, okay, I wanna increase my community.
Vanessa:What do I want to do first?
Vanessa:I need to know my community, right?
Vanessa:Who am I speaking to?
Vanessa:Who am I engaging with?
Vanessa:And I think it's actually the same when we look at employees.
Vanessa:Often people would say, and let's not even look at it at a company level, let's look at it at a team level to start with.
Vanessa:Often when I speak to leaders, I did a workshop yesterday, a group coaching workshop yesterday, and I was telling them, okay, I asked the question, I had eight leaders in front of me and I was like, okay, how well do you know your team or your team members?
Vanessa:And they were like, oh, pretty well.
Vanessa:Oh, you help?
Vanessa:Well, yeah.
Vanessa:And I said, okay, let's start my diagnostics.
Vanessa:Can you tell me if anybody in your team is neurodivergent?
Vanessa:So first of all, I had some faces that, what do we mean?
Vanessa:And I was like, okay, so you do not know what divergent means.
Vanessa:Okay, so I guess you don't know.
Vanessa:Then I was asking, so I talked about ethnicity, not race, ethnicity.
Vanessa:And so because again, in that conversation around diversity, inclusion, belonging, people will go with race, because there was the just murder in 20, in May, 2020.
Vanessa:Actually, when we think about diversity, people are thinking, oh, we are black people, you know, looking under the table.
Vanessa:And I'm just like, diversity, inclusion, belonging is not about only the black people.
Vanessa:Listen, I'm a black woman.
Vanessa:I'm very happy that we, you want more of us, but selfishly, but that is not what we are here to do only.
Vanessa:And I think we have to really start looking at, again, ethnicity, culturally, cultural background codes.
Vanessa:How do you connect with one another?
Vanessa:I asked, I ask clients around age.
Vanessa:So often I have some clients who have actually some targets around, we want to attract X number of gen Z and over forties and whatnot.
Vanessa:And I'm like, okay.
Vanessa:And then on, when you start asking some diagnostic people tell you, well, but I can't ask this question.
Vanessa:Or again, sexual orientation is another one.
Vanessa:Sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression.
Vanessa:But I can't really ask that.
Vanessa:Who's gay?
Vanessa:Who is a lesbian?
Vanessa:Who is this?
Vanessa:Who is that?
Vanessa:And I'm like, you may not be able to ask it point blank day one, but you can create an environment where people will feel just free to tell you at the weekend, I went to a party, I went to heaven.
Vanessa:That's not my reality anymore.
Vanessa:But hey, I went to heaven, you know, in Cherry Cross.
Vanessa:And oh, I met, you know, I'm a woman cisgender, and I met a girl and I was like, do you see what I mean?
Vanessa:So we are, your job is to create that environment where people can speak freely about themselves, about their experiences.
Vanessa:And when you address it this way, straight away, people are like, oh, one of my key strength is common sense.
Vanessa:So of course I serve it, you know, and with, you know, in, in future amount.
Vanessa:But I'm like, this is the piece.
Vanessa:I am not asking you to do something that feels uncomfortable, that feels quite paralyzing and othering, I'm asking you to actually co connect and create a community.
Vanessa:But creating a community goes through the idea of when people come into a room or into a meeting, do they feel welcome?
Vanessa:Simple as.
Vanessa:Do they feel welcome?
Vanessa:And some people will tell me, but well, of course they feel welcome.
Vanessa:They're part of the team.
Vanessa:I was like, Uhuh.
Vanessa:Now I have somebody who started, maybe three months ago, let's say, and they're quite junior.
Vanessa:They're late to a meeting, and that meeting, so the team is there, but they're just, they're running.
Vanessa:When they come into the meeting, they're thinking about the status in theory, right?
Vanessa:Oh my God, you know, I'm late to that meeting.
Vanessa:You know, you have some anxiety, some people don't care, but some, most people would care.
Vanessa:So they'll think, oh my gosh I'm late to that meeting.
Vanessa:How do, how, you know how people are going to judge me the fact that I'm late, et cetera.
Vanessa:Anyway, they come in.
Vanessa:Does this person feel welcome?
Vanessa:And I often tell people when we are looking at diversity, inclusion, belonging, you're not looking at your majority or perceived majority.
Vanessa:You are looking at that person who is going through something atypical, because in those moments, they still need to feel included.
Vanessa:So when I ask in that setup, okay, so how would we make that person who is let feel welcome?
Vanessa:People are just like, they just look at me and I'm like, have you forgotten how to be a human being?
Vanessa:Like, I'm being serious right now.
Vanessa:You see what I mean?
Vanessa:And I'm like, the way you would do that non-verbally, right?
Vanessa:You could actually do it verbally or Hey Tom, you're a bit late, but don't worry, we're just doing temp check.
Vanessa:We are just checking how we are getting on.
Vanessa:You know how we are.
Vanessa:Oh, thank you for that.
Vanessa:I'm sitting down.
Vanessa:That I feel welcome.
Vanessa:And I do this in every single one of my workshops, people are just like, that makes a lot of sense.
Vanessa:And we do that.
Vanessa:Oh.
Vanessa:And I'm like, yes, it's not that hard.
Vanessa:You just need to put your back into this.
Vanessa:Second stage is I'm safe.
Vanessa:Psychological safety.
Vanessa:So Tom is in the room and Tom wants to say something.
Vanessa:We are having a conversation and Tom may disagree, and will have a point to add.
Vanessa:Does Tom feel safe to raise his hand and say, respectfully I love what we're talking about respectfully.
Vanessa:I just want to add something, because from my experience boom, boom, boom.
Vanessa:And if Tom is feeling, is feeling safe to do that, without feeling that people are going to judge him or call him a troublemaker, et cetera, et cetera, then we have some psychological safety.
Vanessa:That's stage two.
Vanessa:Stage three is I am engaged.
Vanessa:So if Tom then does that and somebody in the room says, oh, sometimes you have a stupid question, and Tom says, I'm so sorry, this is maybe a stupid question, but boom.
Vanessa:The per, somebody who's been in the business for a long time, who is more senior, et cetera, says, you know, Tom, thank you.
Vanessa:That's not stupid.
Vanessa:I was actually asking myself exactly the same thing.
Vanessa:Same thing.
Vanessa:Vulnerability and honesty that we're showcasing in the manner to be inclusive.
Vanessa:They try to welcome relaxes.
Vanessa:I'm like, oh, thank you.
Vanessa:Okay.
Vanessa:You feel different.
Vanessa:Stage three, you get to, therefore I'm engaged.
Vanessa:I'm much more engaged.
Vanessa:Because I feel that my thoughts are valid and valued and respected in this room.
Vanessa:I need to listen somehow differently.
Vanessa:When I'm fully engaged, I understand that my action, my ideas are going to have an impact on that bottom line.
Vanessa:So I'm not going to fight also because of my ego, but I'm understanding what's going on here, what we're trying to achieve.
Vanessa:And only then you belong.
Vanessa:And for me I pushed it even to another piece to say, and only then you can perform at your best.
Vanessa:And that's all I'm interested in.
Vanessa:How do we get people, all people, everyone in the business to perform at their best?
Vanessa:By feeling welcome, safe, engaged, committed, and that they belong.
Carlos:So I love those five stages and I'm now thinking about this person, the founder, the manager, the person who is in the meeting already seeing that Tom is entering.
Carlos:What is it that stops them from doing that?
Vanessa:To be honest, it's them not allowing themselves to notice that Tom needs to feel included in that moment.
Vanessa:So often I ask my clients, okay, look, I don't even ask actually, because I think sometimes it's not that I don't ask.
Vanessa:I'll explain sometimes I think I'm very careful with the questions I ask, because again, my goal is for them to leave that room to feel empowered and not to feel guilty or do you see what I mean?
Vanessa:So I don't really like negative emotions, so I don't say, why don't you know, but why don't you do that?
Vanessa:I don't do that.
Vanessa:I'm like, I understand that this is not me.
Vanessa:Maybe something that's, you know, you are thinking about necessarily, but how about thinking about x, y z?
Vanessa:So now that's the scenario.
Vanessa:I'm giving you some suggestions.
Vanessa:What do you think of that?
Vanessa:Then they'll tell me oh yeah.
Vanessa:So for example, yesterday I was telling a, Liza was telling me I don't have time.
Vanessa:My team is complaining all the time that I don't engage with them, but said, I don't have time.
Vanessa:I've got business imperatives.
Vanessa:I was like, okay, how about we come up with a strategic framework about engagement, on how you are going to engage your team that will then empower them, and enable them to do more.
Vanessa:I, and actually I rephrased that.
Vanessa:I said not do more but do better.
Vanessa:Should we think about it strategically?
Vanessa:And they're like, what does this even mean?
Vanessa:I was like, okay, you've got time.
Vanessa:I mean, you know, sometimes you have to go, as I said, to basics, basics.
Vanessa:And I don't judge again.
Vanessa:I just think that people allow, don't allow themselves to go back to the basics, which I think it's a reality in this world nowadays.
Vanessa:And you know, an answer to that is, Hey, let's look at three months, right?
Vanessa:How about you were to commit to, you got, let's say 16 people in, 15 people in your team, and you were going to organize a breakfast of up to 45 minutes with five people at a time once every X time, every X weeks, every X, whatever.
Vanessa:And you protect that time, and then we think about the communication.
Vanessa:They were just like, I could you do that?
Vanessa:Oh yeah, that's easy.
Vanessa:They don't think about the simplicity of what engaging means, engagement means, and how even a five, I call them deep and DMCs, deep and meaningful conversations, how far this can go.
Vanessa:Then they underestimate that.
Vanessa:Because when we think about management, when you think about leadership, when you're climbing that ladder, people are thinking power, status, money.
Vanessa:They're not thinking, connection, community engagement, enabling.
Vanessa:And which means that the narrative that is being served and shared is the wrong one.
Vanessa:And I'm not talking about patriarchy and things like this.
Vanessa:Again, I am not somebody who vibes on those words, but I do think that we need to break some of those lies simply and do different.
Vanessa:That will then enable us to do and find out what better is for us.
Vanessa:And that's belonging as well.
Carlos:When you're talking about the story of what success means, which you mentioned power and, you know, you know, pushing harder, faster, whatever it is, and, and, and this is now connecting to what I was, I was also wanting to hear from you, given your experience as a leadership coach, there's how
Carlos:the group interacts, but then there's something here about how the individual perceives themselves and what it is, what it means for them to be a leader.
Carlos:And so I guess you work, there's times where you have to work one-to-one with people to, to help them shift this mindset that clouds, or makes them unable to see the value and the simplicity.
Vanessa:Exactly.
Vanessa:Yes.
Vanessa:And I love those moments, to be honest, because this is where I love a one-to-one or one to many, really.
Vanessa:I, I just like to create a moment of you know, you know, the light bulb use in English, the light bulb moment, you know, where you are like, oh, yes, okay, I can.
Vanessa:And also that emotional connection or that physical connection almost to, what is it that you say?
Vanessa:You know, sometimes I'm a very spiritual person, so when people tell me something, so I'm like, sometimes I'm like, Ooh, yes, this is it.
Vanessa:I'm feeling into my body.
Vanessa:Let's go.
Vanessa:And that's what I like too.
Vanessa:I'm so dramatic.
Vanessa:I'm telling you.
Vanessa:But I like that.
Vanessa:You see what I mean?
Vanessa:Like, ooh, I'm getting the chills.
Vanessa:Yes, you must do that.
Vanessa:It's not even, we can, we should, you must.
Vanessa:The number one thing, actually, and I used to talk a lot about that at the, in 2020 when there was this awakening of, oh my gosh, you know, in equity is a thing in this world, and especially in the workplace, then we started to, I was talking a lot about self-awareness, and I was like, you've got to really to be self-aware,
Vanessa:and reconnect, connect, reconcile almost, you know, what is it that yourself, the perception of you as a person and what is it that others also think of you?
Vanessa:And this is why I love all the, you know, positive psychology psychometric tools, because that enables you to do that, with the power feedback, I train a lot on feedback, how to give effective feedback, you know, how to give it, how to receive it.
Vanessa:And it's interesting because people are like, but you are a diversity and inclusion 'cause, what are you talking about effective feedback?
Vanessa:And I was like, I don't think about stuff in a, in a box or linear mind.
Vanessa:I think everything is connected.
Vanessa:So if now I really want, it's not now, but I really want people to understand that belonging matters because this is about enabling anybody and everybody to perform at their best.
Vanessa:That means that I have to also really think about how do I get DI to infiltrate, you know, to penetrate to be at the core of trainings that are quite traditional on, you know, management training, so I developed a whole suite of management training, but with, or reviewed actually a whole suite of management training by adding you know, the DDEI principles so then it's just one, it's not an add-on.
Vanessa:'Cause that's a big mistakes I think that people do.
Vanessa:They think that DEI is an add-on.
Vanessa:Oh, I need to, I'm doing my job and then I'll do a bit of DEI, you know, and I'm like no, you did your job and it's already factored in.
Vanessa:And that's how we win.
Carlos:What came across to me was this holistic approach that is kind of, in a sense genetically engineering the DNA of the organization.
Vanessa:Yeah.
Carlos:It isn't just an add on.
Carlos:It isn't like, oh, just, okay, we're gonna put on this suit.
Carlos:I've got these new glasses.
Carlos:It's like at the core, how are we gonna like get it changing so then that just ripples out?
Carlos:And the other thing that sprang to mind around this, how we turn up as leaders, as bands, as colleagues ,that creates this real sense of belonging, being seen, being accepted.
Carlos:It made me think about, and I'm going to turn to Laurence for a little bit here.
Carlos:The difference between leader and host.
Carlos:Because I'm thinking about Summercamp, in this case, Laurence, you know?
Carlos:We could turn up as being the leaders of the event and listen to us.
Carlos:There's something here about the way we host rather than lead.
Carlos:I dunno if you wanted to share some thoughts on our take on this.
Laurence:Well, I think what Vanessa said about creating a safe space for others to be themselves ultimately is what I'm hearing.
Laurence:Like not just being proactive and prompting people, but actually giving them space to actually just feel comfortable sharing and feel comfortable putting their hand up or saying what's not being said.
Laurence:And so I suppose, particularly at Summercamp, me and Carlos aren't particularly visible as the host.
Laurence:I mean, we do an intro and we're sort of around the site, but I kind of see our role as more of designing the whole experience and designing the container and bringing great people together, and in some ways trusting them to get on with their job, but also allowing us to just be there for people so we can listen and spend time and be present.
Laurence:Rather than, I always think of like, if you think of a wedding, not let me call us married, but we're kind of business married.
Laurence:You think of like a wedding that you go to where the bride and groom are like super stressed and they've got lists coming out of their backside and something's going wrong.
Laurence:The favors aren't right.
Laurence:That ripples out to the rest of the group, like, and so, I compare that to like a wedding where the bride and groom is still on the dance floor at 2:00 AM everyone's let their hair down.
Laurence:Everyone's just being themselves and that feeling of permission to.
Laurence:Ultimately lay your head down and no judgment.
Laurence:And that's, I suppose what we try and strive for is that feeling of you can come to camp, Summercamp, say anything, meet someone you've just met, and there's no feeling of someone's gonna judge you or not allow you to have your voice heard.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:There's um, know, aspect of this for me is modeling the behavior that you wish to see in, in, in the group, whether that's an event or in a business.
Carlos:And the other thing around the hosting that I that I picture in my mind is a metaphor.
Carlos:And it is because we're not stood there as leaders trying to control what's going on.
Carlos:We, we have helpers, we have people, volunteers, wonderful volunteers who carry a lot of the load.
Carlos:It's because we can be the person who gets a glass of water for someone.
Carlos:We can be stood around and saying, oh, hello, welcome.
Carlos:How are you doing?
Carlos:What's going on?
Carlos:It's like, we have the space, like you were saying, I don't have time to do is.
Carlos:Like, we, it's designed in a way where we have the time to see someone sat on their own and just sit next to 'em and say, how are you?
Carlos:How are you doing?
Laurence:Well, I think what Vanessa's saying, which is important is tuning in to what's needed or what's not being said, or what someone needs.
Laurence:Sounds like something that you're almost having to teach or train or demonstrate to people that this isn't just a skill in business, in a meeting, it's a skill for life.
Vanessa:That's it.
Vanessa:And I think to be honest, everybody can, you know, sit down.
Vanessa:There is one thing that I ask.
Vanessa:Okay.
Vanessa:You may have gathered it by now.
Vanessa:I'm quite a provocateur sometimes when I do my my trainings and things like this.
Vanessa:So when I do my consultancy, and there is one question.
Vanessa:So when people, when I do an immersion, often I start with an immersion just to understand, you know, the culture, the codes, because even though, of course my expertise and my expertise, I don't, I always kind of flex it because, you know, again, in the spirit of diversity inclusion, you have to flex it.
Vanessa:But there's one question that I ask often.
Vanessa:So two leaders, and it's always very interesting who says hello and thank you to the cleaners?
Vanessa:Some people look at me like I come from a different planet.
Vanessa:Like, how, what?
Vanessa:Like where is this question coming from?
Vanessa:And I'm just like, and then I show up sometimes as a bit of an auntie and I'm like, your parents would be ashamed of you right now.
Vanessa:Do you see what I mean?
Laurence:Yeah.
Vanessa:I think this is the piece that we've got to look at.
Vanessa:We all have time.
Vanessa:It's about priority.
Vanessa:So I'm like, We have to be clear.
Vanessa:Some people just tell yourself, you didn't care because you didn't understand the impact.
Vanessa:Maybe it was a little flimsy intention, but you never prioritize it, which means that it had no impact.
Vanessa:Today and from now on, this is about your understanding that the flimsy intention needs to actually really become the, the be all and end all for you, and that you are going to commit to having impact.
Vanessa:Because I see too many people also have been confronting intentions and the impact is so bad.
Vanessa:So this is the thing that we've got to look at.
Vanessa:You know, we, everybody's got time.
Vanessa:It's about priority.
Vanessa:So there's no ifs, no buts, you know, then you start with all the cheesy expressions that you have in English that I love, and then, you know, people are like, okay, fine.
Vanessa:We got the message.
Vanessa:I like, okay, cool.
Vanessa:Now we build, you know.
Carlos:When you're talking there even about this idea of just saying hello to the cleaner, the the porter, whoever may be within the building or the vicinity.
Carlos:Not doing that, is creating a sense of separation.
Carlos:You know, I'm separate to people.
Carlos:And I would say for classic driven types where there's a story of self-reliance, where I am the master of my own destiny, and I do this myself, there is an intrinsic sense of separation.
Carlos:I don't need to rely on others, but because of that I get blind to the fact that there are other people around me.
Carlos:So I'm wondering from your experience, I don't know, what does that mean in terms of the leaders who don't look like that or who don't be like that, you know?
Carlos:How is that a shift that you see in people?
Carlos:Are those the types, are they the types who are so driven that they forget the people around them?
Carlos:And is there a type that's actually much more aware that they're not just one person driving everything?
Vanessa:Yes, you do.
Vanessa:Of course, you've got different type of people.
Vanessa:The ones who are very driven and think that they're just getting there because of their own greatness, I call them my special projects, then I'm like, okay, but what are we actually talking about here?
Vanessa:Do you see what I mean?
Vanessa:Then you, when you then put them into different scenarios, there is always an I.
Vanessa:And I always of, I often ask the question, but you do realize that without people, you don't have a business?
Vanessa:Because you are not, if you're solo pointed like me, fine, but even so, you know, like I have to show up in a certain manner in front of my, I have to be au well, I have to I don't have to, but I want to be authentic with integrity, et cetera, in front of my clients.
Vanessa:I have to liaise, I have to co-create, I have to collaborate, you know, with my clients in order to win.
Vanessa:But yeah, those are my special projects.
Vanessa:And to be honest, often, with this idea of no judgment or little judgment I call it now there is trauma.
Vanessa:And we must acknowledge that there is, you know, there's a narrative that have been served to people which they believe that they cherish and they often do not realize that it's coming from a place with a very negative and traumatic place actually.
Vanessa:And then when you actually, what I notice is that I'm not a therapist, so I tell this to people.
Vanessa:So I ask questions in order just for me to have enough information.
Vanessa:And then when we get to a therapy territory, I'm like, I think you should do that, you know?
Vanessa:But when I stop here, that means that I've got enough now to know we can work together, because there is vulnerability.
Vanessa:There is something that you gave me here that actually enables me to understand that if I help you to connect, not to the past, but to that feeling of feeling othered, that fee, because I say rejection feeling of that is not only for equity seeking groups, it's not only for women, it's not only for black people.
Vanessa:And I often, you know, often I'm in rooms of senior leaders and I'm the only black person, the only black women at that.
Vanessa:And I'll tell them, I said that, do not tell me that, you know, in high school or in wherever school you had a crush on somebody, and you, and it got reciprocated all the time.
Vanessa:You know, that.
Vanessa:And the, and some of them are like, and I was like, don't lie, that's rejection.
Vanessa:Connect to that feeling.
Vanessa:Did that feel good?
Vanessa:And so when we go back to this, then people are just like, yeah.
Vanessa:And I'm like, I'm being a bit facetious and a bit mischievous here.
Vanessa:But it's for you to understand that do you want your team, do you want your employees to feel that way?
Vanessa:And then when you actually take it that way, the people are just like, okay, this is not a pity party also.
Vanessa:It's not a pity party.
Vanessa:And I think we have to talk about, you know, the word privilege, the word.
Vanessa:People have been, I think the nar it's not people, I think the narrative that we have served, and I say we, because I do believe, and I do blame some DAI consultants, I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to name them, but I do blame some of them who have really used privilege as a piece against this
Vanessa:actually against you, the idea of belonging and inclusion, and again, I don't vibe on bad vibes or negative vibes, so I don't use privilege this way.
Vanessa:I say we all have privilege, actually.
Vanessa:I even run quizzes, you know, around privilege.
Vanessa:And people then realize that, yeah, I, I hold, you know, I hold some privilege and that's okay.
Vanessa:Now it's about, let's say Carlos, zero to 10.
Vanessa:Nobody actually, and I've done this exercise so many times, nobody's called as a zero.
Vanessa:The minimum number was a one.
Vanessa:So, and one to 10.
Vanessa:But my number is a three, for example, on the quiz that I do.
Vanessa:And let's say if your number is a seven, then three plus seven equals 10, and then Laurence, maybe your number is a five.
Vanessa:That's plus five equals 15.
Vanessa:That is collaboration corporation, and that's belonging.
Vanessa:Because look at us now as a picture.
Vanessa:We are different.
Vanessa:You see, we have different backgrounds.
Vanessa:Different experiences, love of dog, no love of dog, whatever.
Vanessa:We found that commonality, that chitchat at the beginning is not a chitchat, it's a temp check, but it's a moment for connection, relatability, commonality.
Vanessa:And you do that.
Vanessa:We did that first.
Vanessa:We've been talking for 57 minutes.
Vanessa:You see what I mean?
Vanessa:And I feel you're my friends, you know?
Vanessa:So I think this is the piece that we have to you know, de demystify.
Vanessa:Is that what we saying?
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:I love that.
Carlos:I mean, again, it, I, for me it talks back to the simplicity of all of this and the shared experiences that we all have.
Carlos:And you know, just even talking to this idea that we've all experienced some kind of other ring or rejection.
Carlos:And you were definitely strumming your pain with my fingers.
Laurence:I think there's one girl in particular that I can think of that Carlos might have had a crush on at school
Carlos:Then, Then resurface the trauma tolerance, then resurface the trauma, we're not in therapy today.
Carlos:But yeah, I think being able to, well build empathy I think is what you were doing there and to tap into that ah, okay, that's how it could feel.
Carlos:And maybe that's what I'm, might be stopping me as well, from reaching out or connecting.
Carlos:So, um, so yeah, I really appreciate that.
Carlos:I, I was, I really wanted to talk to this because we have been talking about organizations and leaders and this idea of like, actually people who are just feel so driven to do things on their own, despite they have this team around them.
Carlos:And if they only just reached out and made them feel to belong, maybe they could have more time, maybe they could be more effective.
Carlos:And as a solopreneur, and I've seen this happen, we feel that we have to do things on our own.
Carlos:We feel like we're the only person who has to tackle this problem, and we don't necessarily reach out to people around us, or we don't seek community as solopreneurs.
Vanessa:I wouldn't be able to be successful, whatever success means to me, and I hope it makes something different than it means to you.
Vanessa:But it's I wouldn't be able to feel, yeah, successful or fulfilled if I didn't have my community around me.
Vanessa:I just couldn't.
Vanessa:And we have to think, when we think about community, it doesn't have to be a large community.
Vanessa:Because frankly I, I, I could just tell you the PC and say, oh, I don't have time to connect with a lot of people.
Vanessa:Truth be told, I don't want to.
Vanessa:I don't want to, I just don't want to.
Vanessa:I, you know, my energy is very precious and this is something that I, you know, nourish and take care of.
Vanessa:And I am very particular regarding sharing it with others because I need to feel nourished somehow.
Vanessa:And sometimes nourish should, could just mean feeling heard.
Vanessa:So you had somebody on this on this podcast called David McQueen.
Vanessa:But David McQueen host, actually a writing group in the morning, in the morning.
Vanessa:Seven to eight every single day.
Vanessa:We, there's a group of us and we meet and we write either our journal or LinkedIn posts.
Vanessa:People write books.
Vanessa:Some people work already, you know?
Vanessa:And then we do a promoter.
Vanessa:So it's a 50 minutes on camera, off camera, but silent.
Vanessa:And then we connect for 10 to 20 minutes at the end of that.
Vanessa:And the power of that.
Vanessa:And we are not talking about our numbers and you know, like our business is just that community of, we are here together, even though we all work for different entities.
Vanessa:It's just beautiful.
Vanessa:It's just it's I don't wanna get emotional, but it's just something that has no price.
Vanessa:No, it is just fun.
Vanessa:It is just amazing.
Vanessa:And also, I have people like Leanna that you mentioned.
Vanessa:You know, I have, you know, few people around me where sometimes, you know, you go through something difficult and you're like, Ugh, a client, or what a situation.
Vanessa:And you're like, who can I call?
Vanessa:And you have some of these people like, okay, I need to talk to you right now, do just a minute.
Vanessa:And then you know, two hours later you are on the phone.
Vanessa:But it's been nourishing again.
Vanessa:And that is and, and I'm very blessed.
Vanessa:It's something that took me a minute, because again, I didn't believe that I was an entrepreneur member, so it took me a minute to actually lean into this.
Vanessa:But now that I am completely in it, I just think it's beautiful.
Vanessa:And I really encourage people actually to do so.
Vanessa:Because that's not weakness.
Vanessa:That's not, you can't do it all.
Vanessa:Do you see what I mean?
Vanessa:It's because often we don't even exchange about work.
Vanessa:It's actually about everything around that, that enables you to actually shop.
Vanessa:That enables me anyway, to shop in a joyful manner with little judgment.
Vanessa:you know?
Carlos:Thank you.
Carlos:I really appreciate you saying that.
Carlos:'Cause I think it's important to underline this and Claire Perry Louise who's been listening along with us, she runs a community called Like Hearted Leaders, and it worked was this morning on her community that getting the same sense.
Carlos:We're not talking about our numbers, we're just talking about stuff around the business.
Carlos:And maybe some stuff that is just very personal and, and human.
Carlos:And to be able to have that, within the space of work is very unique.
Carlos:And I think people don't, a, don't understand that it's possible, but also don't appreciate how really valuable, like you said, this is priceless stuff.
Carlos:And it's one of the things we hope to work, play with at Summercamp.
Carlos:The term colleagueship was brought to us.
Carlos:This idea of colleagues and friendship and how does that work, where it isn't just about a transactional approach to business where, you know, I give you business, you gimme business.
Carlos:No, no, it's more, there's more I need a, an advice, maybe some thoughts, whether it doesn't feel like I owe you.
Vanessa:Yeah.
Carlos:And there's abundance in it.
Vanessa:You are not paying their day rate, they don't need to pay your day rate.
Vanessa:You know, it's really, it's this genuine, I think I, I bot it at this.
Vanessa:Is this genuine feeling or willingness to see you win.
Carlos:Yeah.
Vanessa:You know?
Vanessa:And your success, their success is your success.
Vanessa:There is no jealousy.
Vanessa:There's no competition.
Vanessa:And that in the world of solopreneurship, very rare.
Vanessa:But you have to go on a certain journey, I think, to then get there.
Vanessa:And I allow that too.
Vanessa:I understand that, you know, not, it's not everybody who can get there straight away.
Vanessa:You know, you've gotta go sometimes through things to different phases and then be like, it's okay.
Vanessa:I, I found my fit now, I'm not competing.
Vanessa:Let me think about how I'm adding and all the people are adding to my, to me, to my business, you know?
Carlos:And I, I would say for anyone who does feel like they can't lean on anyone else what I'd like to offer is like, what if someone needed to lean on you?
Carlos:Would you say no?
Carlos:Because I think that's where sometimes we feel like, oh, I don't wanna be a burden.
Carlos:Well, does that mean you, you'd never want to have someone be a burden for you?
Carlos:Yeah, to end is there anything that you would like to share with people, the, where they could find out more about you, learn more about your ideas, where can we point them to?
Vanessa:So I would love for you to connect with me on LinkedIn.
Vanessa:I'm on a venture at the moment where I'm trying to really define how I can only work three days a week.
Vanessa:So then I can paint one day and then do gardening another day uh, like researching and, you know, do things.
Vanessa:And so I, yeah, during those days, for example, I could always connect with people.
Vanessa:So I would love for you to connect with me because, you know, when you do those type of things, it's, it is difficult to know how, you know, your message has resonated and things like that.
Vanessa:So, yeah.
Vanessa:And I need validation.
Vanessa:As I said, I'm not shying away from saying this.
Vanessa:I need validation.
Vanessa:I'm a millennial.
Vanessa:I need, I gratification.
Vanessa:Thank you so much.
Laurence:Oh, well, well, blown away by your energy passion, and I think the thing I'm taking away is just the way you simplify or try to attempt to simplify a very complex and loaded topic and make it accessible and fun.
Laurence:And I don't know, I can just see how, why you are so busy with work and so in demand, because I can imagine your energy radiating out to all these companies and cultures that you work with.
Laurence:So yeah, looking for some of that energy to rub us on us.
Carlos:The word colorful tapestry, or the words, this kind of idea of just, there's this unique person that is you, that is a combination of very many strands that, that just seems to work together in this beautiful way, to make this being me business, this business of just you.
Carlos:And this is what you do and this is why you love doing it.
Carlos:And I just permeates the way you talk and also the way you present yourself.
Carlos:So I'm really grateful for your energy and I'm really looking forward to hanging out with you, at least at Summercamp.
Carlos:Maybe in the mountains.
Carlos:Let's talk.
Laurence:Our people will talk to your people.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:And we'll do that.
Vanessa:We'll talk, because that's You're gonna to me.
Laurence:We'll do that.
Laurence:Let's pretend just don't tell them.
Vanessa:Okay.
Vanessa:Okay.
Vanessa:To be honest, actually, that's the thing.
Vanessa:I don't if people do that.
Vanessa:I have a hello@high15.com, pretending that it's somebody else, but it's me.
Vanessa:Oops.
Vanessa:I sent it on this podcast.
