Build a human-to-human business

Carlos: 00:01:24

Today we are joined by, oh, I'm trying to, how do I pronounce your surname?

Carlos: 00:01:28

Chalif?

Andy: 00:01:28

You can pronounce it any way you want.

Carlos: 00:01:30

We're we joined by Andy Kaha?

Laurence: 00:01:32

Not that.

Carlos: 00:01:34

Uh, Andy Chaleff.

Carlos: 00:01:35

Author, coach, multipotentialite, I'm gonna have to say, I'm gonna hand over to you to describe a bit more.

Laurence: 00:01:41

Actually, I'm found interesting.

Laurence: 00:01:42

You describe yourself as a mentor, not a coach or what you do.

Andy: 00:01:45

Yeah.

Andy: 00:01:45

Yeah.

Andy: 00:01:45

Isn't that interesting?

Andy: 00:01:46

I'm very distinct in why I do that.

Andy: 00:01:48

I actually created an XY access.

Andy: 00:01:51

My mentor died and about seven years ago, it was very emotional time for me because I, I, I, I, I changed my whole life just to work with him.

Andy: 00:02:01

I moved country and just really wanted to, as, as Carlos would say, marinated his presence.

Carlos: 00:02:06

Mm-Hmm.

Andy: 00:02:06

And, and when he died, I had a challenge.

Andy: 00:02:08

I think when we find a mentor, especially someone we're very close to, we'll sort of give over to them.

Andy: 00:02:13

So we lose our own sort of strength because we're, deferring to somebody else's experience so that we can kind of allow that to, guide us a bit.

Andy: 00:02:22

And there of course is some traps in that, right?

Andy: 00:02:25

You can go into a sect and you give over your agency to another.

Andy: 00:02:29

So you know it, there, it's not without risk.

Andy: 00:02:32

But when he died, I had to sit there and say, what do I actually do?

Andy: 00:02:35

Like he, I'm like him, but he had such a different personality, like what is it?

Andy: 00:02:40

And then I created like an XY access to make sense of it.

Andy: 00:02:44

And, I realized that the x axis was inquiry for me.

Andy: 00:02:48

A coach can be a really good coach in just inquiry, which would mean, asking questions like, you know, how was that for you?

Andy: 00:02:55

What did you learn from the experience?

Andy: 00:02:58

How has that changed you going forward?

Andy: 00:03:00

So coach would just, like, you could learn those questions and be a great coach, right?

Andy: 00:03:05

You wouldn't necessarily need to have any guiding principles to say, Hey, this, this decision is better than that decision because of A, B, C, right?

Andy: 00:03:14

So x axis for me was more about, rules and defining.

Andy: 00:03:18

So it was more equivalent to what a teacher would look like.

Andy: 00:03:21

So a teacher would say more like, Hey, do this this way.

Andy: 00:03:24

And I saw the combination of these two was sort of what I felt like the mentor role was, which was basically where you have very strong understanding of principles, ways to work, ways to operate, that'll prove to be more effective over time.

Andy: 00:03:37

And then with the capacity of inquiry, you know when a question is required for someone to discover for themselves what it is that would suit their general awareness or general ability to sort of integrate the complexity of the situation that they're currently facing.

Andy: 00:03:57

So, what I saw with him was that he was very good as a teacher.

Andy: 00:04:01

He was exceptional, but there were times when the inquiry was down.

Andy: 00:04:05

so I had to say, oh, I'm trying to balance this being a more mentorish activities and also the coaching activities.

Andy: 00:04:12

And so I'll tell people, you're being stupid.

Andy: 00:04:15

No, stop that.

Andy: 00:04:16

Like if people in strong high positions, like, wellknown, personalities.

Andy: 00:04:22

So they'll have everyone saying yes to them and validating, or they'll share their problem and I'll be far more directive, like, okay, the way you're doing it has this fundamental challenge that I can't see being dealt with if you do it that way, I have to give you a principle that you're not

Andy: 00:04:39

following so you can decide if you wanna follow that principle or if you wanna go this other route, which you'll learn another lesson potentially.

Andy: 00:04:47

Experience makes you more and more valuable as a mentor.

Andy: 00:04:51

A coach really, if you have the right predisposition, you could be a great coach from a very young age without a lot of experience.

Andy: 00:04:59

If you have very strong empathy, if you're able to have people feel seen and they can feel vulnerable in your presence, those qualities make for great coaching.

Andy: 00:05:09

But then imagine someone with no business experience, going to someone with a lot of business experience and telling them that their decisions are fundamentally wrong, where they haven't had that experience themselves.

Andy: 00:05:18

That gets into some dangerous territory.

Andy: 00:05:21

I think.

Carlos: 00:05:21

I had a conversation recently with someone in our community who is an accountant, and is looking to move into a more coaching space.

Carlos: 00:05:30

Because as an accountant, there's things that she can definitely say that's wrong.

Carlos: 00:05:34

That's right.

Carlos: 00:05:35

Do this.

Carlos: 00:05:35

If you do this, you're gonna be in trouble.

Carlos: 00:05:37

If you don't do this, you'll be fine.

Carlos: 00:05:39

And so, talking a bit to your mentor role, there was some clear instruction that can be provided.

Carlos: 00:05:44

Then there's this level of like, but what do you actually want?

Carlos: 00:05:47

You know, what is it you are trying to do with all of this money or this business?

Carlos: 00:05:51

How do we get that out of you?

Carlos: 00:05:53

What is the space that I need to create as a, as someone who's gonna help?

Carlos: 00:05:57

And so you kind of drift into this coaching role of trying to go into an inquiry mode to help that person find their own clarity.

Carlos: 00:06:05

'cause you can't tell them what they want in life.

Carlos: 00:06:06

You can't tell them what a good business is for them.

Carlos: 00:06:09

And then there's this thing like, I want that, but I'm not doing the things to get that, to make that happen because of something deeper.

Carlos: 00:06:16

Whether that's a pain, a trauma, a limiting belief, something that's really painful and hard and then you shift into therapy.

Carlos: 00:06:22

And I feel this is where I feel it can be dangerous sometimes when people call themselves coaches, but really want to go really deep and might not have dealt with their own stuff, which I'm gonna hopefully talk to as we go on this journey of talking about the connection playbook.

Carlos: 00:06:35

And so they're trying to fix others.

Carlos: 00:06:37

A without the skills and B, without the self-awareness.

Andy: 00:06:40

What I love about my journey was, and I think it happens to a lot of people, is that it begins with some degree of arrogance.

Andy: 00:06:47

Like, we can fix everybody.

Andy: 00:06:50

Like there's this feeling deep inside, like, I've got it, figured out.

Andy: 00:06:52

Like, 'cause in some ways one might have figured out some things for themselves, and then they get enthusiastic about bringing that to others.

Andy: 00:07:00

And I certainly was there, I'm embarrassed if I think about myself, you know, whatever the 10 years ago, like, oh, how my wife dealt with me.

Andy: 00:07:06

If I just think about the discussions we were having then.

Andy: 00:07:09

And then at some point, as you become more adept at interacting with individuals where you go to that line that you talk about, that it becomes more therapeutic, more issues that are kind of on a subtle level, so deep that the person can't even touch that emotion themselves, then what I've

Andy: 00:07:28

kind of found is that the nuance there is what's the best way to help that individual figure out or connect to what's going on at a deeper level?

Andy: 00:07:39

And that's when I find the humility of one's capacity has to then kick in really strong.

Andy: 00:07:45

Meaning I would say there many people that I'm working with, I will sometimes just buy them experiences.

Andy: 00:07:52

I'll say, listen, you've paid me, but I want you to go to this holotropic breath work, or I want you to go to, another experience which will enable you to access parts of yourself that I don't see I'm able to, through words.

Andy: 00:08:05

Somatic work, obviously another great category of these deepening experiences where as you begin to create more of a thought awakening, more of a, I understand stuff, that the more you understand can create the illusion which many have that they actually understand their emotions more.

Andy: 00:08:24

And that's a great illusion.

Andy: 00:08:25

'cause you get with people who will explain their emotions to you, but be totally out of sync with it when they're explaining it.

Andy: 00:08:32

And I always laugh 'cause sometimes I want to be on the verge of tears at any moment.

Andy: 00:08:39

If those tears are what I'm feeling at that moment.

Andy: 00:08:41

It took me into my forties, into my fifties to allow the pain of a moment to also be present and not say, oh, I'm on a podcast now I have to be professional, or, you know, I cried when I was on the biggest morning show in San Francisco on my last book tour.

Andy: 00:08:58

and I cried.

Andy: 00:08:58

The guy asked me a question that, was not meant for a logical answer.

Laurence: 00:09:03

Mm-Hmm.

Andy: 00:09:04

And I wrote a letter to my mom that she received hours before she was killed by a drunk driver.

Andy: 00:09:08

And then he asked me if you could have written anything in the letter that you didn't, what would you write?

Carlos: 00:09:13

Mm-Hmm.

Andy: 00:09:14

And even now I feel it.

Andy: 00:09:15

So I wasn't gonna step away from the emotion, but that took a lot of self love and being okay with that, that pain is just okay, you know?

Andy: 00:09:24

And I spent most of my life pushing it down so that I could function in society.

Carlos: 00:09:29

I believe there's a fear.

Carlos: 00:09:31

I've experienced it and the fear of.

Carlos: 00:09:33

Showing emotion can be a sign of weakness and how that might make someone else feel uncomfortable.

Carlos: 00:09:37

And I think there's a wider context of people's ability to access painful emotions or be with other people's painful emotions.

Andy: 00:09:46

Yeah.

Carlos: 00:09:46

And how that, how people can run away from that.

Carlos: 00:09:49

Not physically necessarily, but just not be present anymore with the person who's experiencing that.

Carlos: 00:09:54

And this hopefully is part of this whole conversation is like when we can talk about these more human interactions, not forgetting that those interactions are in place when we're doing business, rather than think, oh, it's a different sphere, it's a different thing.

Andy: 00:10:08

Yeah.

Carlos: 00:10:08

Gotta have our game face on.

Carlos: 00:10:10

We gotta be the cold-hearted person because we are making big decisions that are important that emotion can't be a part of.

Laurence: 00:10:16

Had a call the other day, Another lady on there is a bit emotional and she was apologizing the whole time.

Laurence: 00:10:20

I'm so sorry, I shouldn't, you know, I shouldn't be like this on this call.

Laurence: 00:10:22

And all it did was create conditions for other people just to, just to open up.

Carlos: 00:10:27

I think it is, it is part of our, our own personal ability to navigate this stuff, and not assuming, that everyone is the same, which again, I think can talk to some ideas that I hope Andy can share.

Carlos: 00:10:39

I wanna rewind a bit 'cause I wanna give people a bit more context about Andy.

Carlos: 00:10:43

I'd love to just get you to just share how you describe yourself now, and then maybe a little bit of a potted history as to where, where you started and how you got to where you're, just to give some sort of a bit of, of a colorful picture.

Andy: 00:10:57

I was gonna say, how far back did we go?

Carlos: 00:10:59

Yeah, you got two and a half minutes.

Andy: 00:11:01

at 18, like I said, my mom was killed by a drunk driver, and my dad was chemically imbalanced and very unsafe to be around for me.

Andy: 00:11:10

So at 20 I left America and I just left and said whatever I'm gonna do, I just need to find a new space to do it, because I didn't feel safe there.

Andy: 00:11:18

I spent years backpacking around the world.

Andy: 00:11:21

I lived in four or five different countries and then I call myself a fugitive of love because I'd kind of find a place.

Carlos: 00:11:27

Mm-Hmm.

Andy: 00:11:27

And then I ended up in Vienna, Austria, and I didn't have any experience, never had a real job.

Andy: 00:11:32

And then I went for a job interview and said, I kind of would like to do something in marketing.

Andy: 00:11:35

I wouldn't have known what the word marketing meant at that time.

Andy: 00:11:38

They hired me 'cause I was American and I did magic.

Andy: 00:11:41

And they said, Hey, you know, if you do, if you're American and you do magic, you, you're gonna be fine.

Andy: 00:11:45

And then my boss quit kind of a month after I joined.

Andy: 00:11:49

So now I was the marketing director of a company that was gonna go public in a month and a half or two months.

Andy: 00:11:55

So I learned like with fear, anxiety, doubt, when are they gonna expose that I know nothing about anything?

Andy: 00:12:02

But I did that for, a good probably decade.

Andy: 00:12:04

And I did that kind of out of fear because although it was exciting and I really loved it, there was a degree to which my dad had disowned me at this point and I was alone in the world and I really only had me as a basis to feel like I could survive.

Andy: 00:12:18

So I needed to figure it out myself, which is a great gift he gave me.

Andy: 00:12:21

But he didn't quite understand that at the time.

Andy: 00:12:24

Disowning me and riding me outta the wheel and doing all that kind of stuff.

Andy: 00:12:27

I was deeply unhappy in those last three years of that company.

Andy: 00:12:30

Not because the company wasn't great, but because I kept asking myself, is this the life I'm gonna live?

Andy: 00:12:35

And if so when I die, honestly, would I think, Wow, that guy really went for it.

Andy: 00:12:40

Like that was the kind of like, no, I just felt.

Andy: 00:12:43

And I was getting paid so Well, and I was getting all these perks.

Andy: 00:12:47

My life was just set the quintessential golden handcuffs.

Andy: 00:12:50

I just had the golden handcuffs.

Andy: 00:12:52

And then I met this guy who came from Amsterdam.

Andy: 00:12:55

He was a very intense, what one would call a non-dual teacher, but he didn't call himself that, but in retrospect, that's what he was.

Andy: 00:13:02

And he just pointed at every kind of inconsistency at me in this director world that I had in Austria, and I realized that he scared the living hell out of me.

Andy: 00:13:13

Because he, he, he pointed at every single thing that I was denying in myself.

Andy: 00:13:18

He did it with grace and he did it with strength and it was what I needed to, to not delude myself anymore.

Andy: 00:13:25

So I sold everything I owned and I moved to live in an attic space, no water, no electricity to do a complete life, do-over.

Andy: 00:13:32

And I did that in, Amsterdam.

Andy: 00:13:34

And I did that for 10 years.

Andy: 00:13:36

And then he died, he had cancer and then he had a heart attack.

Andy: 00:13:39

And after that I had to then look in the mirror because it was funny.

Andy: 00:13:43

I was the director, highly respected, highly paid.

Andy: 00:13:47

I now became the second in command to him where we were basically a nonprofit.

Andy: 00:13:51

You know, my wife would joke with me, just please stop thinking you're running a business.

Andy: 00:13:54

You're just giving out services and trying to, you know, drum a business that never comes.

Andy: 00:13:59

And then when he died, I had to ask, what am I gonna do?

Andy: 00:14:01

And then I said, well, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna write a book.

Andy: 00:14:05

And I didn't even know what the book would be, but I'm going.

Andy: 00:14:08

And then that guided me to the second book, and then the third, and then the fourth is actually already written.

Andy: 00:14:12

They just, it just was, I'll let that guide me without, it was a clear intention without a clear focus on what would come out of it.

Andy: 00:14:19

And then because I was more grounded, I could now be of service to people greater than before.

Andy: 00:14:25

'cause before I was not embodied.

Andy: 00:14:27

I was, I was thinking I knew better.

Andy: 00:14:30

And then trying to tell people how to live, which you can imagine kind of that energy was met with a lot of resistance.

Andy: 00:14:37

And now it's like, I come in, there's no one I don't work with.

Andy: 00:14:42

Where we don't say, I love you at the end.

Andy: 00:14:44

Like regardless of the business.

Andy: 00:14:45

That's not the, the, if, if we're not on that level, we're not, I'm not working with you.

Andy: 00:14:49

And the depth of it is what I, where I won't compromise because.

Andy: 00:14:54

If I do, then I go back to where I was when I left the company, which is why am I doing this, if not for the connection that I get to, have with another human being?

Carlos: 00:15:04

Oh, there's so many angles, directions we can go with this.

Carlos: 00:15:07

And I think the thing, the thing that's coming up most immediately for me is just thinking about how we run our business, Laurence, and our relationship to the people we work with that some people just don't get.

Laurence: 00:15:19

What's he called?

Laurence: 00:15:20

N,

Laurence: 00:15:22

yeah, there's a quote in his book, which is something like, if I can't work with someone for life, I won't work with 'em for a day.

Laurence: 00:15:28

And it ties to that idea, like he said, of that connection that if we wanna do right by people and also who we want to hang out with, then it needs to be those that it feels not effortless, but it feels, um, I can help them.

Laurence: 00:15:41

You know, there's, there's not that sort of transaction.

Laurence: 00:15:43

There's something about us, or me or you that we can offer people that is meaningful for them, and for each other as well as a community.

Laurence: 00:15:50

I think knowing that any conversation we have with someone is gonna be one that someone else will benefit from.

Laurence: 00:15:55

So those are the qualities I look for.

Carlos: 00:15:57

I, I really resonate with this idea of, unless you can have some kind of meaningful connection with someone, it just doesn't just, there's the quality, the quality of the work, just even the quality of the experience as well as the quality of the work changes for me.

Carlos: 00:16:14

I think there's something to do with care and really wanting the best for this person.

Carlos: 00:16:19

So there's something around my own need to feel like I'm of service at the best level.

Carlos: 00:16:24

And then connecting that to business.

Carlos: 00:16:26

I was just thinking.

Carlos: 00:16:27

We always talk about niching and it sounded like a niching strategy is people who I have deep connection with.

Carlos: 00:16:33

So basically that's my niche.

Carlos: 00:16:35

If you can't connect with me deeply, I'm not gonna work with you.

Carlos: 00:16:38

So it helps just filter out.

Carlos: 00:16:40

And I think this is where a lot of people in our community or people thinking about business, they struggle because they have to define it maybe in some kind of demographics, point of view, or based on the amount of money or whatever is location.

Carlos: 00:16:52

But actually there's this sense about knowing who you are and how you want to connect, then help being, I dunno, project that So you will only attract and work with the people who connect deeply with you.

Andy: 00:17:05

I wanna stay a little bit cautious on there, 'cause there's a degree to which there's almost like an arrogant, like, like as if I hold the key to what connection means or anything.

Andy: 00:17:15

And not that you've said it, but I wanna make clear that I will interact or work with people where I don't feel the connection.

Andy: 00:17:24

But I won't deny that it's not there.

Andy: 00:17:27

And I'll consciously go into it realizing that if in whatever time and shape it doesn't feel like it's connected for me, that I then would say, okay, now I've gotta really think about how I wanna engage now.

Andy: 00:17:40

So sometimes it'll deepen over time.

Carlos: 00:17:43

Hmm.

Andy: 00:17:43

'Cause if I said to you, Hey, Carlos, if I don't like him, screw 'em.

Andy: 00:17:47

I'm done Like that, that that isn't also authentic.

Andy: 00:17:50

Authentic is that some people need time to see and understand and connect with you.

Andy: 00:17:54

And that's a journey that I consciously make.

Andy: 00:17:57

I mean, I'll often trigger a person and the first conversation, and I'll trigger them knowing the intention is to see how far are we able to interact around difficult discussions.

Andy: 00:18:10

Not as a game, not as a, like a provocation for the sake of provocation.

Andy: 00:18:15

Because the defense of an individual will define how deeply you can go in a discussion.

Andy: 00:18:21

And people will defend either subtly or more assertively.

Andy: 00:18:25

if you say something they might deflect with a joke or they might deflect with a Yeah, but you do it too.

Andy: 00:18:30

Or they might say, yeah, yeah, but you don't really understand.

Andy: 00:18:33

Like all of these simple, nuanced ways of putting a little barrier.

Andy: 00:18:38

if you can engage those ways, you know, okay, we can go further.

Andy: 00:18:42

But if someone has a very strong belief system, then basically all you're gonna be spending your time on is listening to them tell you what it is they already know and ask for your validation so they feel more comfortable within that belief.

Andy: 00:18:56

And that's the challenge is, is I'm looking for where can I sort of touch the boundary of your comfort and how much do you see the love in me that you're ready to sort of, let me get a little bit closer, even if it isn't comfortable?

Carlos: 00:19:09

So for me, this talks to a bit of your book, which is around this idea of not holding too tightly onto an outcome.

Carlos: 00:19:17

The way I'm relating to what you just said is like if this person is so wedded to an idea and wanting, basically having this interaction with you in order to validate this thing that they're already thinking, there's a lack of connection.

Andy: 00:19:30

There's a great chapter in the book.

Andy: 00:19:32

The exercise was called Lady Liberty.

Andy: 00:19:35

And I'm always thinking about myself in terms of how do I stay centered at moments when I'm not feeling comfortable?

Andy: 00:19:45

And how do I look and understand that dynamic in myself?

Andy: 00:19:48

The Lady Liberty is to say, I'm going to say I really, really want this outcome.

Andy: 00:19:55

I'm not gonna hedge, I'm not gonna say, yep, it'll be fine if it's not, but I really, really celebrate.

Andy: 00:20:00

I want the damn book to be a New York Times bestseller and I'm okay if it fails and flops it and no one enjoys it.

Andy: 00:20:08

And if I can make peace with those two things simultaneously, I'm now just centered with you in this interaction and that is not impacting how we're connecting.

Andy: 00:20:18

Because I can guarantee if I wanted the book to be the, the, the bestseller then the way I'm gonna interact with you is gonna, you're gonna feel that.

Andy: 00:20:26

Oh yeah.

Andy: 00:20:26

Carlos, the book is really special.

Andy: 00:20:28

It's got several chapters.

Andy: 00:20:30

These QR codes are there to help readers connect.

Andy: 00:20:34

In fact, you can feel this dripping note like, I'm so trying to fight for an outcome that, what am I doing to the other?

Andy: 00:20:42

Like, oh God, get away from me or the other side.

Andy: 00:20:46

Oh, Carlos.

Andy: 00:20:47

you know, so many people have written other books like this and, and I, I guess my book, you know, it's, I don't see anything special in it.

Laurence: 00:20:54

Just adding to the noise.

Andy: 00:20:55

Adding to the noise, you know?

Andy: 00:20:56

So it's these two things of celebrating both and then just being with Carlos and Laurence and just the two of you.

Andy: 00:21:04

And then we get to enjoy our time together.

Carlos: 00:21:07

On that, I love the YouTube videos.

Carlos: 00:21:09

so I'm gonna have to plug that if you are.

Laurence: 00:21:12

The QR codes.

Carlos: 00:21:13

Yeah, if you're interested in that.

Carlos: 00:21:14

There's a lovely set of future videos on each chapter where Andy talks, I think really enriches the learning experience for me anyway.

Andy: 00:21:24

Christopher O'Conor,, cognitive scientist who, who basically looks at me all the time and says, Andy, it can't be that easy.

Carlos: 00:21:31

It's a fascinat for me as, as a scientist or as someone who's trained as a scientist, there's the cognitive side of the conversation and then this kind of heart centered side of this conversation, and then this journey to meet each other in some way, which, uh, I think feels like a metaphor for the book as well in the sense of what you're trying to do with sense of connection.

Carlos: 00:21:50

I wanted to rewind a little bit because I, you know, this is something that struck me in the book.

Carlos: 00:21:55

I, I'm gonna say you have a superpower for connection because you, you are very aware as I understand it, of the energies of people in a room, or you are conscious of that.

Carlos: 00:22:06

And so I wanted to just maybe get you to share a bit how that came about or how you discover that, what is it you think?

Carlos: 00:22:14

Because the, we have, I think, you know, Floris Koot.

Andy: 00:22:16

Oh yeah,

Carlos: 00:22:17

I do, yeah.

Carlos: 00:22:17

Charlie's friend.

Andy: 00:22:18

Friend.

Carlos: 00:22:19

And he talks about turning your weaknesses into superpowers.

Andy: 00:22:22

Yeah.

Andy: 00:22:23

I was more sensitive as a kid.

Andy: 00:22:25

Yeah, that, that there's already a predisposition.

Andy: 00:22:27

So in some ways I think it's important to note some things that one might project as a skill or just a predisposition.

Andy: 00:22:34

I was just born a bit more sensitive.

Andy: 00:22:36

Added to that sensitivity I had, as I mentioned before, this bipolar father who would explode any given moment without knowing why.

Andy: 00:22:45

and he'd often, really like, get aggressive, not physically per se, but always yelling and making snide remarks and putting me down for no reason.

Andy: 00:22:55

It would, and it would shift over time, right?

Andy: 00:22:56

So it's not like I could ever say, oh, it's gonna happen then, 'cause it always happens, then I had to live on edge.

Andy: 00:23:02

So when you're living on an edge as a young person, you're actually starting to look at every damn micro expression, every movement, everything that would precipitate a moment that he's gonna lose it.

Andy: 00:23:17

And living with that high, high intense feelings, where you're just waiting for the explosion means that you're weirdly developing skills that you're not even aware of at the time.

Andy: 00:23:29

it's survival.

Andy: 00:23:30

You're just surviving, but you're surviving in a way which is helping you develop this capacity to sort of understand and see things more deeply, where people who wouldn't pay that much attention wouldn't think that you could understand an individual like that, on that level.

Andy: 00:23:49

And that's how that, that's really where I saw my own skill.

Andy: 00:23:53

Then, where I see it really gained kind of another level was when I no longer was fearful of sharing what I was seeing for fear that I couldn't deal with how the other person would react to it.

Andy: 00:24:08

That was when I became more adept.

Andy: 00:24:10

Because when I saw, I joked.

Andy: 00:24:13

Because joking was the easiest way to get it out of my system and not have to hold onto the heaviness of the emotion I was feeling.

Andy: 00:24:20

And then, and then my mom would label me like her little shit stirrer, because she's like,you say everything that you're seeing, knowing it.

Andy: 00:24:28

But she always saw with the intention of creating, you know, a little bit of havoc.

Andy: 00:24:32

In time, what I began to see was that's, that's just where when someone says, like, why do you see it?

Andy: 00:24:38

When I see emotions in them, I always laugh.

Andy: 00:24:40

It's not, I don't see it in you, I see it in me.

Laurence: 00:24:44

Mm.

Andy: 00:24:45

I know where that feeling is in me, and I know when I'm feeling that I talk the same way you do.

Andy: 00:24:50

So I'm not really looking at the world as a examination of Oh, they're that way I see it.

Andy: 00:24:57

It's like I am that way.

Andy: 00:24:59

I know that of myself, and there's a compassionate way in which I can interact with them, knowing what that I'm in touch with.

Andy: 00:25:06

Part of that in me at that time.

Carlos: 00:25:08

As I understand it, that skill that, predisposition is now the core of your work.

Andy: 00:25:14

Yeah.

Carlos: 00:25:14

You are getting paid because of that to some extent.

Andy: 00:25:18

I get paid to be me.

Carlos: 00:25:20

I'm waiting for that phrase.

Carlos: 00:25:21

That's the phrase I was looking for.

Andy: 00:25:22

That's it.

Laurence: 00:25:23

So he was guiding you there.

Andy: 00:25:24

And, and, and at times it feels weird to charge for it.

Carlos: 00:25:28

Oh, that's another conversation.

Andy: 00:25:30

Yeah.

Carlos: 00:25:32

Um, actually no, I'll, I'll touch on that first.

Carlos: 00:25:35

What is the, what is the essence of that weirdness?

Andy: 00:25:37

oh my God, this is, uh, so the book, the book did well.

Andy: 00:25:42

it sold 700 copies as a self-published book in less than two weeks.

Andy: 00:25:46

I mean, that's beyond, beyond.

Andy: 00:25:48

It got the literary reviews.

Andy: 00:25:49

It won a literary award.

Andy: 00:25:50

It did like it did everything I would've dreamed of.

Andy: 00:25:54

And what happens is I had to, now I have accepted so much, I won't be seen in my love to people.

Andy: 00:26:01

Like, I'll show up and love you, Carlos, but you might not show up in return and I can't blame you for that.

Andy: 00:26:05

So I've kind of allowed myself to accept I won't be seen in that love.

Andy: 00:26:08

So now I'm getting praised by people who I don't even know.

Andy: 00:26:12

And the pain of, wow, I still have that part of my psyche where my dad lives, which I can feel like, wow, it's hard to accept that love, especially from people I don't know.

Andy: 00:26:24

Somebody who reads this book and really sees me like, wow, I never, I've given up on that.

Andy: 00:26:29

I've given up on the idea.

Andy: 00:26:31

and because if you think you're gonna be seeing what's gonna happen, you go in with an expectation.

Andy: 00:26:35

And then you're gonna be disappointed, is like finding and rekindling that part of me, which doesn't need to go away, doesn't need to change, doesn't need to be fixed, but it's just like, wow.

Andy: 00:26:44

I can feel the feelings come up of just people, praising and saying how much the book has helped them on a, on the other books as well.

Andy: 00:26:52

But this was far more in a moment where I couldn't step away from, you know, that experience.

Laurence: 00:26:58

When you said getting paid to be me, it's something we hear a lot, particularly people that join our community or program.

Laurence: 00:27:04

They tend to be at a point maybe where they're not being paid to be themselves.

Laurence: 00:27:08

maybe there's a part of them that's on the outskirts, you know, margins of life, that's them, but work is more transactional.

Laurence: 00:27:15

So I'm just curious, was that a goal to be paid, to be, does it feel success in itself to feel like that?

Laurence: 00:27:20

'Cause a lot of people I know that is the holy grail as Zia said.

Andy: 00:27:24

I mean, going to another discussion right now.

Laurence: 00:27:26

Yeah.

Andy: 00:27:28

I'm kind of, I mean, I don't do, I'm not a big reader.

Andy: 00:27:31

Funnily enough, I write a lot.

Andy: 00:27:33

Someone asked in the questions is, have I done any psychotherapy?

Andy: 00:27:36

Certainly not.

Andy: 00:27:37

I spend most of my time connecting to me.

Andy: 00:27:39

Where am I pulling away from?

Andy: 00:27:41

Just being present and, not a mindfulness practice, just a state of being.

Andy: 00:27:45

And it's not perfect.

Andy: 00:27:46

it's like I've dedicated to being centered and where am I being pulled away?

Andy: 00:27:49

And so when you ask was that a goal?

Andy: 00:27:53

My goal has been never to step away from the discomfort that arises through challenge.

Andy: 00:28:00

It's almost like, as I said, I'm thinking about my funeral service, not about what I do today, like if I did this, what I feel like I've taken a step in a direction that I'm proud of the person that I am five years from now?

Andy: 00:28:14

The humor with a book is I make no money from this book.

Andy: 00:28:17

Most of the people that I work with won't even read the book.

Andy: 00:28:20

This book brings me no financial gain.

Andy: 00:28:22

Who knows?

Andy: 00:28:23

In the future, but that's not the, so I write it because that's my legacy in terms of the life and service I wanna give while I'm alive.

Andy: 00:28:31

And then I see myself get drawn into the goal of it.

Andy: 00:28:34

Now I'm reaching out to more, more agencies or more people.

Andy: 00:28:37

And what's the, the irony is I now lose connection.

Andy: 00:28:39

' Cause now I'm trying, as Carlos said earlier, I'm going for an outcome and, and not staying connected to, and this book needs to held of nothing and it's fucking great.

Andy: 00:28:48

And if I don't hold those in balance, I see myself off center and I'm not able to interact with you guys in the state of just being connected to myself with you.

Carlos: 00:28:57

I wanted to pick up on that idea of being connected to yourself and relating it to a conversation.

Carlos: 00:29:03

Again this morning we had the Like Hearted Leaders crew, about I think who, being ourselves and why it's hard to be ourselves.

Carlos: 00:29:13

So I, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts around that, because I, I heard when you were doing the marketing role, it didn't feel like you, and maybe speaking to those who might listen to this, where they, they don't, they don't feel centered, but they don't, may, maybe they might even not have that language yet.

Carlos: 00:29:32

Something's not quite right.

Carlos: 00:29:33

And it sounds like you went on a journey to recenter yourself and still are maybe.

Andy: 00:29:38

Carlos.

Andy: 00:29:38

There's so, and I don't wanna step away from there's a general belief in it that I think can actually make people's lives worse off.

Andy: 00:29:49

Is that in the end they should find something where they can fully be themselves, or that you haven't figured life out till you figured out life's purpose, or that there's something that you haven't figured out in general, and if you did, you'd be happy.

Andy: 00:30:04

And what I see in that, and it's such a subtlety that in a lot of ways, I think it's become part of a societal narrative where everyone kind of thinks, oh yeah, have you found your life's purpose yet?

Andy: 00:30:14

You know, because you haven't figured out how to live in your authenticity yet?

Andy: 00:30:17

So in a way, I see a big trap there.

Andy: 00:30:21

And for me, I, I laughingly call myself like an existentialist, which will get me in fights with some of my friends who don't feel the same.

Andy: 00:30:29

Because that I, I, I feel that life is inherently meaningless, and then I feel like I give meaning to life through the meaning I decide to give it.

Andy: 00:30:38

Which feels like a contradiction, right?

Andy: 00:30:40

Because in a way it's like, there's that sort of thing when you were born 300 years ago in the blacksmith family, you'd be a blacksmith, that would be your life's purpose, right?

Andy: 00:30:48

Now, life has got complicated because now your last name doesn't define your job or your role.

Carlos: 00:30:53

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos: 00:30:53

' Andy: Cause now we have to figure that out for ourselves.

Carlos: 00:30:55

And now, what if life was us just being here present with one another and enjoying each other's company?

Carlos: 00:31:01

And no more than that.

Carlos: 00:31:03

For me, it's the ultimate surrender.

Carlos: 00:31:05

It means that I define what I make meaningful.

Carlos: 00:31:10

I have agency over the life I wanna live.

Carlos: 00:31:13

No one can tell me your life isn't meaningful.

Carlos: 00:31:17

'cause you haven't found your purpose yet.

Carlos: 00:31:19

One of the journeys I took is I wrote, drove, you know, four months across, or three months across America and sat with 60 groups inviting them to write a letter to a person as if it's the last letter they're ever gonna send them.

Carlos: 00:31:31

And that was like for me, saying, I'm gonna make my life purposeful with an act.

Carlos: 00:31:36

And I don't even know why or what's gonna come up, but I'm gonna do this.

Carlos: 00:31:40

And the humor was at the end of that I was so depleted, I was so exhausted.

Carlos: 00:31:44

I thought I could have died of a heart attack.

Carlos: 00:31:46

from 60 sessions and three months driving, you know, across a zigzagging, across the USA to give my life's purpose to others.

Carlos: 00:31:54

The irony of it is that I saw that the purpose of me doing something really beautiful, all of a sudden was consuming me and I wasn't connected to myself anymore.

Carlos: 00:32:03

And so what I realized is I chose to give, my life meaning through that act, and then I chose to spend the next year doing nothing and give that meaning as whatever I wanted to give it without feeling the guilt that I needed to be doing something, because life has a bigger purpose, right?

Carlos: 00:32:18

That would be the narrative that gets people stuck because like, oh my God, I'm not living my full purpose.

Carlos: 00:32:24

Oh, that feels like just a small amuse bouche to a much bigger conversation that I'd love to have with you.

Carlos: 00:32:30

Because I think that for me, I think there's freedom in being able to have that perspective, but it also feels such a hard place to get to because of so many narratives.

Carlos: 00:32:42

Well, at least I have anyway, whether it's religion, society, parents, yeah, just the weight of needing to be, have a purpose, be meaningful, whatever that means to the people around me.

Carlos: 00:32:53

One of the things that we talk about within the community and as the Happy Startup School, is this journey from the inside out.

Carlos: 00:33:00

I, I think we touched a lot on kind of, how we interface with the world, how we view it in order to act in a way that is, purposeful and meaningful.

Carlos: 00:33:10

The way I hear Andy's very much present, you know, present with the thing right now that needs to happen.

Carlos: 00:33:16

But there's this other aspect and, and just maybe wanna finish off on, is this self-awareness piece, this understanding and how that relates to how we connect.

Andy: 00:33:26

The funny thing about writing the book, writing anything, is you write it to clarify your own thoughts more than for somebody else, 'cause as you're writing it, you're like, oh my God, but all of this is meaningless if I don't address this.

Andy: 00:33:37

So, so the book on connection with oneself came later because I said I, I, I really felt almost like dangerous.

Andy: 00:33:45

I'm sending a book into the world about connecting with others, when in actuality I know that it's meaningless if a person isn't centered in themselves beforehand.

Andy: 00:33:53

And then I thought to myself, how do I center myself?

Andy: 00:33:58

Because I have to start from, and then I did my graph.

Andy: 00:34:00

So, what, what I'm always seeing with people is their behavior.

Andy: 00:34:05

And when we spoke earlier, when I see a behavior, I look and I say, okay, well there's a feeling underneath the behavior.

Andy: 00:34:13

And that feeling created the behavior.

Andy: 00:34:16

And then underneath that feeling, there was a thought that generated, that created the feeling that then became a behavior that I recognized.

Andy: 00:34:22

And finally, of course there's the belief.

Andy: 00:34:25

And if I have a belief and it's different than your belief, then it's like a magnet.

Andy: 00:34:29

Like immediately that belief will attract certain thoughts.

Andy: 00:34:32

And you and I will have very different thoughts depending on if we have beliefs.

Andy: 00:34:35

Like one of the core beliefs I see that defines so much of the thoughts are is people are inherently good.

Andy: 00:34:42

If I believe that people are inherently good and then I see them do something, the thought I have is it's a shame that they do that, they don't actually see the consequence of that behavior.

Andy: 00:34:52

If I believe that people are inherently bad, then what I see is that person did that for suspicious reasons.

Andy: 00:34:58

That's the thought.

Andy: 00:34:59

And then the feeling comes up a negativity towards them, and my behavior towards them will be congruent with that, which is I probably treat them with some guard and maybe not, not kindly.

Andy: 00:35:10

So this the same, same interaction with the same person with the belief that people are inherently good or people are inherently bad, would actually have an incredibly different behavioral, outcome.

Andy: 00:35:22

Just because the thoughts I'm attracting are gonna be so different in those two scenarios.

Andy: 00:35:26

So when I am looking.

Andy: 00:35:28

and connecting with a behavior that's there, the thought or the belief, sorry, the feeling, the thought, and then what's the belief underneath all of this, and that's the journey I'll do over and over again in myself so that I say, oh, Andy, there is that belief.

Andy: 00:35:41

Not denying it, not trying to fix it, not to do any, not to judge it, but not to, to not see it means it's still defining me.

Carlos: 00:35:50

I really appreciate that, that framing of not changing it.

Carlos: 00:35:55

I see a lot on social media and you know, these adverts for particularly around being more successful in life, as change your beliefs.

Carlos: 00:36:06

Change your beliefs.

Carlos: 00:36:07

Change your beliefs.

Carlos: 00:36:07

You know, in the sense that you can just throw some out and bring some new, new ones in.

Carlos: 00:36:12

And I think it talks to what we started off with this idea of like, I am a narcissist and it's a there, but maybe by accepting it's there, it's a bit smaller, but not trying to deny that thing.

Carlos: 00:36:24

Oh, I'm not like that.

Carlos: 00:36:25

I'm not selfish.

Carlos: 00:36:25

I'm not an arsehole.

Carlos: 00:36:27

And like, for me, there's something here around how we can be more aware of the beliefs that we are holding as opposed to trying to either throw them away or hold onto them too tightly.

Carlos: 00:36:39

That's my understanding.

Carlos: 00:36:40

So they're.

Andy: 00:36:40

I'd rather there, Carlos, I'm a narcissist and it's effing great.

Andy: 00:36:44

That's what I, that's what I want.

Andy: 00:36:47

And I'm saying that Carlos, again, I'm just gonna, because I get to have a moment with you in the middle of all this because in that celebration of that part of me, I don't need to resist it.

Andy: 00:36:58

And then not needing to resist it means I'm just centered with you again.

Andy: 00:37:01

Do you feel the difference if you've celebrated and then how we'll interact together against, if I make reference to you being a bit of a narcissist and then you have somebody come up in your system like, oh, I don't really wanna be seen that way?

Carlos: 00:37:12

Yeah, getting there.

Carlos: 00:37:15

What I'd like to do to end off with is firstly for those of the listeners on the podcast or those listening live that may want to engage with you more or, follow more about your work?

Carlos: 00:37:27

We have the website that we can share again, but are you appearing anywhere that people

Andy: 00:37:32

In general.

Andy: 00:37:33

So it's quite funny, it's interesting I always say I love people.

Andy: 00:37:36

I don't like people.

Andy: 00:37:38

Is like, I love to be in connection.

Andy: 00:37:41

I hate trying to explain to anyone the way they should live their lives.

Andy: 00:37:44

I'd rather model it and say, okay, I see the person I wanna be because it's reflected in another individual.

Andy: 00:37:50

So I don't, in that sense, I'm a bit, anxious to, too many courses of training or teaching, I'd rather just model the behavior that I'm hoping to see more of in the world.

Andy: 00:37:58

So I use the books, the Connection Playbook as my way of supporting people in the world to connect to themselves and of course to others.

Andy: 00:38:07

So in answer to your question, I will go out of my cave.

Andy: 00:38:11

but it's normally to really loving environments where I don't have to defend anything, I can just be in the group and be almost a member of the group and not any authority and, and, and yet still share my experience and let other people resonate with that.

Carlos: 00:38:24

Well, it definitely answers my question because there's a place that I know about, it's called the Happy Startup School Summer Camp, where people can just turn up and be part of a loving environment.

Carlos: 00:38:34

So maybe we can talk about something like that in some, some point.

Carlos: 00:38:37

But in the meantime, check out the link to Andy's website.

Carlos: 00:38:40

Really urge you to get all three books.

Carlos: 00:38:43

I think they're definitely, worth marinating some more in Andy's words.

Andy: 00:38:49

You know, I often will say after anything in my life concludes like, was I able to be me with you?

Andy: 00:38:58

And, I can't blame another person for however I show up, but I know that I'll show up either feeling safe or not safe.

Andy: 00:39:05

And so what I'd say is thank you because I felt I could be me with you and that isn't always easy.

Andy: 00:39:12

And it made that very easy.

Andy: 00:39:13

So thank you.