Episode 142
Can I be paid to be me?
When people join the Happy Startup School’s Vision 20/20 program and talk about what they want to do, one phrase pops up again and again:
“I just want to be paid for being me.”
But it’s not always easy to get to this point. Sometimes it takes a circuitous route, as we get more and more used to showing up as our full selves and discovering what it is we truly want to do.
One such alumnus of our program who’s taken the long way around is creativity coach Mark Steadman. As someone who’s able to do it all, from coding to design to writing, he’s become a legend in our community for his ability to “ship” - to transform ideas into reality and get them out into the world.
But he’s tired of constantly cranking out new projects and hustling all of the time. He wants to take a break from constantly “doing” and allow himself to “be” more instead.
He now wants to use his knowledge, experience, and skills to help other creative people unlock their own creativity. He’s realised that that's the thing that brings him the most joy.
But to do that, he needs to put other projects to rest. And that’s tough. To make this change, he needs to give himself permission.
Carlos and Laurence talk to Mark about what it’s like to be a “relentless creative” who has constantly made and shelved projects while he’s discovered what he really wants to do now.
They discuss what it’s like to constantly put out new projects while you try and find “your thing”, and what that's meant in terms of finding his purpose. And they explore whether it’s possible to be paid for just being ourselves.
They also ask him how he feels about putting all of his different creative endeavours in one place, under his own name for the first time, so that he’s finally embracing his role as a creativity coach.
Transcript
Welcome to our Happy Startup School podcast.
Carlos:Uh, the Friday fireside is, uh, we're still trying to work out how best to, so just a little bit disclosure, a little window into our world at the Happy Startup School, you know, we go through occasional existential crises of like, what, who are we, what are we called?
Carlos:Does it work for us?
Carlos:You know, it's about Happiness, but it's also about the challenges of business.
Carlos:It's, we call ourselves Startup, but a lot of people don't necessarily identify with startups.
Carlos:We, we call ourselves a school, but we're not teaching people so much.
Carlos:We're just helping them give the space to just learn.
Carlos:It is like, ah, what do we call ourselves?
Carlos:And then there's, what's the podcast called?
Carlos:I just wanted to share with you if all of any of you like struggling with a name for a business or trying to work out your branding and stuff like that, you know, we all have that thing as well.
Carlos:Even if, even 10 years in a while, still, dunno, 10 years old.
Carlos:Uh, and, and it's a, it's a curious question, you know, and it's like, and I'm, I'm really verging on the, on the question of like, could you tell us what you'd love this podcast to be called?
Carlos:So it can help work out.
Carlos:I love Terry's bit in the chat.
Carlos:yeah.
Carlos:The thing is like, how many likes do we get on that, on socials, and then who's gonna identify themselves with life anxiety?
Carlos:Maybe they will.
Carlos:Maybe that's how we attract the customer anyway.
Carlos:we're trying to work out a better name for this Happy Startup School podcast, I think, So we might not know what it's called and we might not know exactly know who it's for, but we know what we're gonna be talking about today
Laurence:with our podcast producer, Mark Steadman.
Mark:Exactly.
Mark:Uh, that's the worst advert for my services.
Mark:It's Dream Creativity
Laurence:Coach, uh, hustler Extraordinaire Business.
Laurence:Um.
Laurence:Great giver of hugs
Mark:and also someone who's in a name transition.
Mark:Um, because as after, oh God, I mean seven years of freelancing in this stint.
Mark:Um, but 18 years since I first became a freelancer, I am for the first time trading under my own name.
Mark:Wow.
Mark:Rather than a, a collection of different brands or pseudonyms or whatever.
Mark:So yeah, I, I also, I, I identify with the, uh, the slight existential, um, uh, moment.
Carlos:Existential business identity crisis.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Um, I, so, alright.
Carlos:Actually, let's, let's start with that.
Carlos:'cause what I've got in my head now is a massive draw full of names and projects and ideas and, and, and the slowly closing of that draw and the elbows on the table and the fingers.
Carlos:And this is me.
Carlos:so for, for anyone who's stumbled across this, uh, Crowdcast or listening to the recording and who ha have they haven't met you before or heard of you before, do you know, give a brief intro, uh, just about what, how you'd like to describe yourself right now and then we can go into this evolution piece.
Mark:Gosh.
Mark:Um, I, uh, would have traditionally described to myself as someone who, who, who helps people make podcasts.
Mark:as I, uh, evolve and as things are changing, um, I'm thinking more of myself, um, as someone who helps people with their creativity, not necessarily helping people create stuff because you don't need help creating stuff because that stuff is already within you.
Mark:But what you might need is someone blocking or some permission or some structure.
Mark:And those are the kinds of things that I really like to, to help with.
Mark:Um, it's something that over the last couple of years, uh, I've discovered, it turns out it's something I can do, which I never knew I could do.
Mark:Um.
Mark:And do so in a way that makes, that helps people feel safe and held.
Mark:And that, you know, one of the crucial things is that they're not gonna look silly.
Mark:Um, I won't make, I won't, um, counts that, you know, I'm not gonna do anything that's, that's gonna make them look silly.
Mark:I won't let them walk out into the, the, the world, um, without their marathon metaphorical creative trousers on.
Mark:Um, and so, yeah, I, it's now I still slightly bristle against the word coach.
Mark:It still doesn't quite identify with me.
Mark:Um, but, you know, a partner, a sparring partner, a playmate, a, an advisor, um, a guide maybe, uh, to help you do the stuff that's within your heart that maybe you haven't allowed yourself to do otherwise.
Mark:Okay.
Carlos:let's get some definitions down so that we know what we're talking about.
Carlos:So, first thing, Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:Creativity.
Mark:Mm-Hmm.
Mark:What
Carlos:does that mean?
Carlos:What are you trying to say?
Carlos:What does that, you know, I, I, I'm assuming, let's make an assumption that lots of people have different thoughts of what creativity means,
Mark:I
Mark:hate it when you, you use the word within the definition, but it's, it's making up a world in some respects that didn't exist otherwise.
Mark:And you are creating that in someone's mind.
Mark:Um, or, or, or heart.
Mark:You can do it in the physical world as well, obviously.
Mark:Um, and so it's, it's making something that didn't exist otherwise, but it, it doesn't have to be a physical thing.
Mark:Um, and it doesn't have to be purely.
Mark:Utilitarian.
Mark:That for me is creativity.
Mark:It's a, it's, it's a little piece of you.
Mark:It's a little piece of your emotion, a little piece of, of what makes you tick that you then fashion into something, whether that's in writing, in speech, in song, um, in art.
Mark:That's, I think creativity for me.
Laurence:I think of it as the ultimate form of expression in some ways.
Laurence:So, it can be linked, like Mark said, to creating things, but also just to ideas or ease in terms of just being in a natural state.
Laurence:So for me, it's um, sort of removing the blocks so that we can just be in a state of opportunity, possibility, and to play with it.
Laurence:So I think of it as like, yeah, expressing myself as a human being in a way that doesn't come with judgment or fear.
Carlos:Okay.
Carlos:Alright.
Carlos:So hope we, hopefully that's kind of the boundaries around this word.
Carlos:Creativity.
Carlos:Let's go for coach.
Carlos:mark?
Carlos:What's, what's your relationship to that word?
Mark:It's, it's a positive one when I've been coached.
Mark:Um, and I think for me that's a word that feels like it, it has to carry some kind of, it carries a, an authority to it.
Mark:Um, and there's maybe some, some old pre Happy, Startup, School mark baggage.
Mark:Um, like when I, when I've spoken to people outside of the Happy Startup, um, bubble, uh, uh, you know, as it were, um, about having a coach or working with a coach, you, you sort of sense a, an eye roll because people have a misconception of what that means.
Mark:so, yeah, I think, I think for me, um, coaching is about listening.
Mark:It's about supporting, being supported, being listened to, um, and maybe being encouraged and maybe sometimes being, uh, and Lawrence has been, has been wonderful at this, um, giving a prod or a kick up the ass gently, but when it's needed, um, to, you know, say you are holding yourself back or you are letting something in you saying you can't do something.
Mark:So I'm gonna call BS on that and, um, yeah,
Laurence:yeah, I have an equal challenge with it.
Laurence:Not an issue with it, but just I find, I don't like calling myself a coach.
Laurence:I feel, I feel like, I think Anya put this on, I feel like more of a mentor.
Laurence:partly there's a bit of imposter syndrome 'cause I haven't done any coaching qualifications.
Laurence:So there's an element of like, oh, I see all these people placing their certificates about, you know, all this accreditation they've done.
Laurence:And yeah, I definitely feel like I'm lacking in that.
Laurence:So there's an element of, uh, what is a coach, you know, in terms of a professional badge.
Laurence:but also I think there's something about a lot of the people that I work with are trying to do things like we do.
Laurence:They're trying to create products, communities, and followings.
Laurence:Um, they're trying to express themselves creatively, get paid to be them.
Laurence:So for me there's an element of we've walked this path, we've got experience doing this.
Laurence:We haven't got all the answers, but we are trying to guide them towards something that's quite clear in some ways.
Laurence:So it's not as open as maybe a coach would be.
Laurence:It's more guiding them to an outcome that they want.
Laurence:And so there's an element of sharing knowledge, contributing, giving back, as well as there is.
Laurence:Facilitating and coaching in traditional sense.
Mark:And I think there's so, and, and I, I, I love all of that, um, because that, that's what I, I think I try to articulate and poorly.
Mark:but there's also sharing your experience as well.
Mark:Uh, not necessarily all always having to be from your knowledge, it's, it's also like, here are a bunch of mistakes.
Mark:Here are, here is a bunch of things not to do.
Mark:Here's a bunch of stuff that I've tried.
Mark:Um, and, you know, figured out maybe where this thing doesn't work or that thing doesn't fit.
Mark:And that also being really useful as well because it comes from your, your lift experience.
Laurence:Cool.
Laurence:And, and the thing I'd add to that is there's a, maybe a worldview or a philosophy that I think a lot of us have that in some ways is, you know, there's a belief system that you're trying to align on.
Laurence:And so if people align on that, then cool, this is the path.
Laurence:But it doesn't mean that it can be a coach for everyone.
Laurence:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:and I'm hoping that anyone who's, who struggles with the word coach, uh, is gonna get something out of this.
Carlos:There's an aspect of this is just owning a word.
Carlos:Um, and there's also an aspect of this is like, how is anyone gonna know what you do if you don't have a name for it?
Carlos:So, we are talking about can I be paid to be me?
Carlos:Part of what, at one level it's about who am I firstly, you know, what does that mean in terms of the work I wanna do?
Carlos:And, and we can explore that.
Carlos:But then if you're gonna get paid, people gotta know what they're getting, they're paying you for.
Carlos:So they need to know, alright, what does it mean to be a creativity coach?
Carlos:What does it mean to be a coach?
Carlos:Do I use the word coach?
Carlos:If I use the word playmate, what does that actually mean?
Carlos:So, I've heard some really interesting definitions about different ways we help people.
Carlos:and the mentor is very much.
Carlos:I will share my knowledge and experience, and if you are following the path that I'm following, do what I say and you'll get to where you need to get to.
Carlos:These are, this is my, uh, with the knowledge that there's a context aspect of it, but ultimately you've done this before.
Carlos:I'm gonna tell you what to do.
Carlos:Then there's like the consultant aspect.
Carlos:It's like, you've done, you haven't, I know how to do this.
Carlos:You don't have to do anything.
Carlos:I'll do it for you.
Carlos:I'll come in, I'll tell you what, I'll, I'll actually do the work for you in a sense.
Carlos:And then for me, the coach aspect, and it's interesting 'cause I've heard so many people talk about qualifications aspect.
Carlos:Oh, I need to coaching qualifications.
Carlos:It's like, there's this thing around basically, and someone said it in the, in the group facilitating someone else's process in whatever that way is.
Carlos:Whether that's asking questions, whether that's holding space, maybe that's just cheerleading and, and getting obstacles out of the way.
Carlos:But I.
Carlos:There's something more about, there's less to do with your knowledge, but more about how you interact with someone in a sense is how do you hold space for 'em?
Carlos:How do you give them an opportunity to find their own epiphanies?
Carlos:And this is where I'm hearing your, where you are getting to mark in terms of the creativity coach.
Carlos:'cause you, what I heard you say before that it's already inside them.
Carlos:You're just trying to get it, help them, get it out of them.
Carlos:What?
Carlos:And whatever's getting in the way, you're trying to help them remove those obstacles.
Mark:And that speaks to, I think, the transformation that we, uh, in, in the work that we do, that we wanna enable.
Mark:So then it sort of becomes, as you know, as you were listing these different things, we're thinking, okay, at some point we might need to put something on a, you know, the, the, uh, H two tag of a website.
Mark:But what's actually really important is what are, what is the transformation that you are gonna create for people?
Mark:Where are you gonna move?
Mark:Where are they now?
Mark:And where are you gonna move them to?
Mark:And that is the really important thing.
Mark:And, and you know, to some degree then it doesn't matter whether you categorize yourself as a coach or consultant or advisor, a facilitator, if you can deliver on the promise of that transformation that I'm gonna, you are feeling stuck now I'm gonna move you to confidence or your feeling, uh, inert and I'm gonna move you into action, whatever.
Mark:Well, not I'm going to, but with my help, you are going to do that.
Mark:Um, then the, the sort of the nomenclature around it, I think maybe is, is less important.
Mark:And then it becomes, if you wanna call me a coach, if you wanna call me this and that and the other, that's fine.
Mark:I call myself this.
Mark:But actually what's important is where we're gonna move you from.
Mark:Uh, and to, yes, I'm gonna
Carlos:agree with you on one level because it is the most important thing is about the change and the words we use and how they land with other people.
Carlos:Is going to be as fundamental to how you get paid and where, how you build the business.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:For instance, we have the word Startup in our name.
Carlos:Anyone who doesn't consider themselves a Startup is gonna have a bit of a speed bump when they first hear about us.
Carlos:No, that's not me.
Carlos:And so I'll just saying there is an importance in the words and owning those words.
Laurence:well, I think of the word mentor, for example.
Laurence:Mentors traditionally are people who give their time for free, I would argue.
Laurence:So people wouldn't traditionally pay to be mentored.
Laurence:Mm-Hmm.
Laurence:In the, in the, certainly the Startup world or the business world, you know, people give their time prob no to give back to the next generation of people starting out.
Laurence:So it is an issue, I think, like Alice says, if you are trying to tell yourself a story, why would I pay for this service?
Laurence:Oh, maybe I can get a mentor elsewhere for free.
Laurence:Mm-Hmm.
Mark:Checked out.
Carlos:And so I think, uh, the, the thing below this really, I think is, is, is owning whatever we're gonna call ourselves, uh, because that's us.
Carlos:That's me.
Carlos:I, I am a coach, say I own the word, and because it's, um, that I identify with that role in a sense.
Carlos:Um, but then it's getting to that place.
Carlos:I, I think what I'd like to explore a bit more is your journey to getting closer to that.
Carlos:All right, this is the work I'm gonna do.
Carlos:But beforehand, you, you've been trying lots of different things and lots of different projects and you've just been exploring a lot.
Carlos:And so I'd be curious to hear, about that experience of being a very prolific creator, but it kind of feeling like a massive smorgasbord
Mark:of stuff.
Mark:Noodle soup.
Mark:Yeah.
Mark:Soup.
Mark:More of a soup or a stew.
Mark:Yes.
Carlos:More of as stew.
Carlos:And now it feels like something's happened that started to coalesce and you are gravitating towards kind of focus in on it.
Carlos:But before that, there was like a lot of stuff.
Carlos:Can you tell us about that being in that space of just like incessantly creating?
Laurence:So this is like, um, creators is anonymous.
Laurence:My name is Mark.
Laurence:Yes.
Mark:I'm Mark Steadman.
Mark:Um, yeah, I think for me, uh, one of the things I realized about myself a couple of years ago is how much control is important to me and being able to control things or feel like I have some control.
Mark:And so when things are uncertain.
Mark:Um, I revert back to what I know and what I know is creative expression.
Mark:It's, it's, I've made things, I've created things since I had access to, to things, you know, made, made songs on the piano.
Mark:Um, uh, when I got a computer, I started building websites pretty quickly.
Mark:I'd made animations.
Mark:Like I, I couldn't not do that.
Mark:Uh, I used to take videos that came on video CDs and cut out the characters in Microsoft Paint and make animations using all these different characters and stuff in PowerPoint.
Mark:And I'd be in the a level, uh, computer lab messing around with stuff.
Mark:like, you know, it's, it's what I, it's what I do.
Mark:It's what I know.
Mark:Um, and so when it comes to work and to business, I.
Mark:Using those things feels like, okay, that's a gear that I know how to shift into.
Mark:And when I'm faced with a problem of I'm, I'm not getting the customers, or I don't seem to have the traction, or the money's not coming in, or I'm uncertain about what it is that I actually wanna do, I, uh, I sort of try and create my way out of that problem because it's something I can do, you know, and that the capital D do word is really, really important.
Mark:because not doing feels like surrendering control.
Mark:And it feels like, well, the universe isn't gonna happen, nothing's gonna just happen to me unless I like force it to make it happen.
Mark:And so over the last few years after selling, uh, my previous company, I've had this moment of going, okay, what hat fits?
Mark:Um, what is that sort of, um, the, the, the.
Mark:Icky guy, the Japanese concept, where do I sit in the middle of, you know, what I'm good at?
Mark:What, um, is needed in the world?
Mark:And, and, you know, in, in the middle Sits, sits your purpose.
Mark:Um, trying to find all of those different things and exploring it through creativity, through newsletters, the podcast videos, um, and you know, and all sorts of things.
Mark:And then I think what happened this year, at, summer camp is I finally just stopped and, and sort of asked myself the title of this, uh, of this Crowdcast is, you know, what would happen if if I just got paid to Be Me?
Mark:and then further to that, thinking about what would happen if I just stopped, like not stopped creating.
Mark:'cause again, it's what I do.
Mark:I love it, but without it all feeling like it has to matter.
Mark:And that was the big thing.
Mark:So you had this control.
Mark:And then on the other end, when you are, you know, looking down the barrel of a, of a, a mortgage.
Mark:Uh, statement or whatever.
Mark:There is this thing of, okay, I'm doing all this creativity 'cause it's the thing I know how to do.
Mark:This has to work and that, that just heaps so much pressure on you.
Mark:Or, you know, heaps so much pressure on me.
Mark:Um, that every piece has to work, every blog post has to have traction, every episode has to get comments, whatever it was.
Mark:and if, and if I wasn't getting that quickly, okay, fine, iterate, I'll go onto the next thing.
Mark:and just finally just stopping and going.
Mark:What would happen if I just let you know the universe or whatever?
Mark:Um, if I just listened, if I stopped and looked and listened to see what was going on, see what was around, and practiced that for a bit.
Mark:And experiment with a bit of quiet and a bit of silence and a bit of, uh, relaxed, fun, artistic creativity rather than this hashtag content.
Carlos:I, I, I feel that we, we are, or we've been living at least over the past 10 to 12 years in this kind of content, gold rush.
Carlos:People just like think, oh, this, I, I have a medium now to communicate with everyone.
Carlos:I must now make as much content as possible.
Carlos:Have
Mark:to make all of the content.
Carlos:Make all of the content.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:Because then I'm seen, and then there's, if I make content, I get customers.
Carlos:That's the mantra of all the marketing wizards out there on Instagram and YouTube and Facebook or wherever there is content gets you customers.
Carlos:and there's something here about control.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:I can control the making of the content.
Carlos:I can control the, putting it out there, necessarily control who sees it and, uh, whether they like it or not.
Carlos:But if I ignore that and I just focus on the making stuff, then it feels like I'm doing something productive.
Carlos:Yeah, absolutely.
Mark:And because I think as humans we're, and, and you know, I dunno if it's just uniquely me or my personality or my brain, but I know if there's something that I'm not good at, I'm not good at sitting in that discomfort and, and pushing through it.
Mark:you know, I will, I will if I absolutely have to.
Mark:But given the choice between that and something else, I'd rather do the something else, please.
Mark:because one of the things that I, I discovered, and I was talking about this on, on one of my podcasts a week or so ago, is to, to, to the point that you made about content equals customers?
Mark:Really none of what I've created has led directly to customers.
Mark:And I think that's not unusual, but I think that's sometimes what people think.
Mark:Um, I.
Mark:Having a flashy website, having, you know, making these beau, you know, trying to make these beautiful little objects that hasn't been anywhere near as important, uh, as useful, as valuable as standing up on stage and going, this is me.
Mark:This is what I do.
Mark:Here's my story.
Mark:Got a couple of skills if you need me, I'll be over here.
Mark:That's the stuff that moves the needle certainly for me.
Mark:Um, you know, I've got friends that, that say, yeah, I post on Instagram about what I'm working on and I get work, or I post to LinkedIn and I get work.
Mark:And that's, and that's great.
Mark:My thing is, it turns out that going to places, being with people is what brings things in for me.
Mark:But that's not easy.
Mark:I don't know how to just make that happen.
Mark:And so for, given the choice between, do I sit here for an hour and run through like Eventbrite or some of the websites to try and find.
Mark:Events that I can talk at, or panels that I can be a part of that feels really uncomfortable.
Mark:I've gotta pitch myself to strangers.
Mark:I've gotta do all these, I don't like any of that.
Mark:I know I'll blog my way out of this problem.
Mark:And, and therein lies the, therein lies the cycle.
Mark:this idea of
Carlos:connecting connection, making some connection with people, um, and how that moves the needle more effectively in your experience than just putting stuff out there.
Carlos:And the distinction I'm making is a, a, a one way versus a two way interaction, content creation in, in one, you can think of content creation as just a, a one way exercise because you put something out there.
Carlos:You interact with, whoever reads it, watches it.
Carlos:It's just one way.
Carlos:And so how do you create a relationship that way?
Carlos:Because they may know you very, very well, but I don't, they might not feel seen.
Carlos:So how are you gonna create any trust as opposed to you get on stage, you have a talk, someone comes over, he has a chat, you hear about them, you're able to understand where they're at, you're able to say that, okay, given where you are at, I think you can get here.
Carlos:That's a relationship.
Carlos:You're saying both, both people know each other as opposed to just one person on the stage?
Mark:and it isn't to say that the, the, the, the stuff that we make doesn't matter or doesn't move the needle in other ways.
Mark:It absolutely does.
Mark:But it's the supporting stuff.
Mark:It's the stuff that says.
Mark:it, it, and it may be the thing that you go to the event and you do your talk or you shake hands with people and you hand them a business card or, or you show them your podcast or whatever.
Mark:And then over time you are continuing to build that trust and that relationship.
Mark:Um, but where we sometimes get tripped up, I think, is thinking that each individual nugget is actually gonna be the thing that, you know, this one is the one that's gonna not go viral necessarily, but is gonna, you know, be, be the impactful one.
Mark:And it's actually, it's the cumulative effect and it is the, the showing up aspect.
Mark:Um, and so showing up as a, as a person in a, in a physical space, uh, or a digital space, a live space, that's one thing.
Mark:And then there's showing up in your creativity, in your, in your art, in your work.
Mark:Um, that's the, that's the entire other piece.
Mark:That is also the longer, slower trust building stuff that is, um, also valuable, but without heaping that pressure on top of it.
Carlos:I was hearing there this assumption and there's a particular, that whole viral, I gotta get that viral piece of content.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:Because if I get the viral piece of content, I'm a success.
Carlos:Or if I get all those likes on this post, I'll be a success.
Carlos:So if I get lots of comments, so this is kind of assumption that I just gotta find the right piece of content that everyone engages in.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:And then that means I'm gonna like start building my business.
Carlos:and, and I think saying that, you know, if you don't put anything out, then no one's gonna know who you are.
Mark:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:But there's that step of like, you still need to make a connection with someone.
Carlos:You still need to be able to tell them a story or be able for them to understand what they will achieve by working with you and then having a way for them to really trust you.
Carlos:And I.
Carlos:Even from our experience, and correct me if I'm wrong, Lawrence, it's like it's very seldom someone just discovers us and buys something straight off of us.
Carlos:it does happen.
Carlos:But we can't build a business on that kind of potluck, Russian roulette style way of doing things.
Carlos:A lot of the time.
Carlos:It's been a long build process in terms of building of trust and connection.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:And conversations.
Laurence:yeah.
Laurence:I wrote a post about this, well, a few weeks ago, about this body of trust, I called it.
Laurence:So there are a couple of people who bought, um, a place in our program recently who did discover us fairly recently.
Laurence:So like, like days before they hadn't heard of us.
Laurence:And then they, and it's so rare.
Laurence:Um, equally there's someone who joined the recent cohort of Vision 2020, who had been following us for years, like seven, eight years and hadn't bought anything.
Laurence:So my take on that was that the people who just discovered us, it wasn't just because we've come outta nowhere and they've come outta nowhere.
Laurence:It was they, they could plug into this, community that existed that they could see was visibly a community from the Instagram posts that they saw and summer camp and the stories.
Laurence:And so there was safety, I think, in that consistency I suppose, that we built up over the years of just showing up like Mark said.
Laurence:And yeah, not everything gets traction.
Laurence:Not everything gets, um, results, but over time people see that.
Laurence:And a lot of people are passive too.
Laurence:So I've had, the reason I've sort of learned not to get too tied into the outcome of any post or thing we put out is I've had emails and comments from people who never even engaged with a post, but privately years later might have said something really impacted them.
Laurence:In your head, you're going, why didn't you fucking post a comment at the time?
Laurence:So it's really, I think it's interesting how some people just look and don't engage and I think many people, in fact, maybe most people don't engage, I think, I think it's most people.
Laurence:Yeah.
Laurence:Yeah.
Laurence:So I think it is that sort of equanimity of trying to be balanced when you're never quite sure of what the response is.
Laurence:And sometimes the best things I've written I thought would do really well and didn't.
Laurence:Other times you do something, it takes two minutes and it gets, you know, amazing engagement.
Laurence:So yeah, I think there's an element of some of this stuff's just out of our hands, but yeah, it doesn't make it easy if you're trying to get to an outcome, like you said, trying to connect with treat people.
Laurence:We're trying to grow your list, trying to bring in people for your next, uh, course or program or event.
Laurence:But, um, yeah, doing nothing doesn't seem to help either, so, no.
Mark:Yeah, that does make me think about control.
Mark:Again, it's like, You can control the output, you can control what you make.
Mark:When you make it, how often you make it.
Mark:You can't control people's reaction.
Mark:And that's, that's the difficulty.
Mark:And that's what, um, for me, I think yes, I, I can control I can make the best thing I can make in the time that I've got, but there has to be that surrender of control.
Mark:And that's one of the things I'm learning is yeah, once it's out there, like if it needs, if, if it's not getting the, the doing the numbers, if it's not doing the numbers that you want it to do, what you have to remember is exactly what you just said, Lawrence, is
Mark:that like it's, you know, I call it the body of work, but I also love that the body of trust, like it is absolutely adding to something.
Mark:Um, one of the things that I was thinking about a while back is, and not everybody wants to do this, but I, I love the idea of making a little nick, a little mark in the like ledger of.
Mark:The world, like having, doing something.
Mark:It could be really small, but something that has an impact in a small way that just says in the, in the vast timeline, I was here and I did a thing and that might be committing one line of code to a project.
Mark:That, that it then turns out that thousands of people use, which I managed to do.
Mark:Uh, just an event.
Mark:Like there was a, there was a thing on, you know, how to contribute code to a big project and I did it.
Mark:And now, you know, a thing that I made, maybe it's been overwritten now, it was, you know, back in 2015.
Mark:But the point is like there is actually a public record of that.
Mark:There is a public record that I did a thing.
Mark:And like I said, not everybody wants that.
Mark:And it doesn't have to be big, but I think there's something really special in, we don't all have to make a dent in the universe, but we can make a little nick and just go across the vast span of the internet even.
Mark:I was here.
Mark:Like I was, I was at this point I made, you know, somewhere along the graph I made a mark.
Mark:And that, ah, kind of, kind of gives me goose goosebumps.
Laurence:Reminds me, you shared that Aing Cleon tool this week, and there's a bit in that where he talks about these people are vandals, making dents, making marks, making nicks in the universe.
Laurence:I know it's,
Mark:it's, it's an antithetical to that, but I kind of, you know, I, I dig it.
Carlos:there's a premise here around, you do marketing or content creation, it will not guarantee you clients.
Carlos:If you do no marketing and no content creation, you'll be guaranteed that you won't get any clients essentially, unless you go and talk to them.
Carlos:But basically, if you don't make yourself visible, you won't be seen.
Carlos:You definitely guarantee that.
Carlos:I would challenge that as even if you make, even if you do make yourself visible, you may not be seen.
Laurence:well, my wife, she doesn't market at all and she never does and she never has done, she never sort of work.
Laurence:So yeah, it goes against everything we teach.
Laurence:So there are people out there who word, word of mouth is their marketing.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:But that they're seen because of the work.
Carlos:Um, what I'm talking about, there is, you know, you can guarantee if you don't do any marketing, you know, if you don't put yourself out there, then no one will see what you say.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Yes.
Carlos:She, she gets word of mouth work.
Carlos:Yes, that's great.
Carlos:But it isn't like she's got stuff out there that people can see.
Carlos:It doesn't guarantee you in it.
Carlos:And I think what I'm trying to get at is the relationship that we have to this process of creativity, I.
Carlos:Is the thing that we're talking about.
Carlos:If you, if you put a lot of stock, all right, I'm gonna make this thing, and it has to be a success.
Laurence:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:There's already pressure on that work.
Carlos:There's only pressure on the creativity aspect of it.
Carlos:It has to be productive as opposed to what I was hearing from.
Carlos:And even there's like, it has to make a difference.
Carlos:It has to count.
Carlos:And how that can stop you from maybe being creative.
Carlos:And then what you are saying here, what I'm hearing from you, mark, is like, if I let go of that a bit more, you know, and also it is, it's, and think about what I'm hearing well is that connection piece, trying to connect with people, trying to, essentially where I'm going with this is if you're gonna be paid for use, like knowing who you are and for whom and what you're gonna do for them.
Carlos:And the relentless content creation.
Carlos:If you're not sure who's for, and it's kind of like a scatter gun approach, it's gonna be hard for people to understand, you know what?
Carlos:This, it's gonna be more of a, a, um, less certain that the right people will find you and trust you unless you have a consistent message.
Carlos:And this, what I'm hearing with you is like, you, you are much more clear about who you are and who you want to be for and what you wanna help them with.
Carlos:This is, this is the thing that's sinking in for you.
Mark:It is.
Mark:I think that really, really getting into the fundamental phrase of being paid to be me, what that means for me is showing my work.
Mark:So, um, I'm, you know, I'm working on a Christmas song at the moment 'cause I thought it would be fun.
Mark:Um, I made a game, um, I can't remember late last week.
Mark:I just, I had an idea.
Mark:I hadn't done one for a while.
Mark:I just made a fun little game.
Mark:Um, if, if you're interested, you can Google Galactic Notch feed.
Mark:Um.
Mark:Uh, and, and you know, I've, I've written, you know, kids book a kids book and turned it into a podcast and all these things, I'm over the expectation that they will suddenly break out or make loads of money.
Mark:that's not why I do it.
Mark:Yes, it would be lovely if those things happened, but I've never been motive, I've never sat down and, and, and thought I'm gonna write this song because it's, it's, it's going to be exactly the right formula with exactly the right chord progression that I know the kids are gonna love on TikTok.
Mark:Like, that's never been my thing.
Mark:so what I'm aiming to do is show my work, be kind of a, a bit bold and a bit more vulnerable and say.
Mark:Here is a, here's a video of me sat in front of the guitar or sat in front of the camera with my guitar that I can't play very well with my hair.
Mark:That's a mess with my voice.
Mark:That's hoarse because I've been, uh, drinking, uh, with my Happy Startup School buddies.
Mark:and here's a song that I wrote, and you know what?
Mark:The internet doesn't slap your hand away and tell you that you are a silly person or tell you that you suck or tell you that you should be, go stick your head in the toilet or whatever.
Mark:Um, and I know everybody's experience is gonna be different.
Mark:Um, and I'm, I'm not discounting that, but the, the point in all of this is showing all of that work and saying, if, if you did wanna, you know, sling a five my way, that's fine.
Mark:But the point is what I wanna help you do is do this stuff as well.
Mark:Whether it's creativity for its own right or creativity to support a wider purpose so that you can do all of that stuff without the pressure that it has to work.
Mark:That, that, that, that clinging cloying sense that it has to work, that it can just be the thing.
Mark:And so where I wanna be paid to be me is not that I'm trying, because I'm realistic.
Mark:Like I know what my music's like, I know you know where it might have appeal and where it absolutely doesn't.
Mark:And that's fine.
Mark:I don't have those grand delusions.
Mark:What I want to be paid to do is help people with their own stuff, help people get outta their own way, get outta their own head, be more productive in a healthy sense, fit creativity into their lives and their work, uh, around, around that stuff in again, in a healthy and balanced way.
Mark:And, and be paid to do that.
Mark:And also get to make the music and get to do the stuff.
Mark:Because that, to me, showing my work, um, working out loud
Carlos:for me, this is all of it in a nutshell.
Carlos:Because what you're doing is you're being you.
Carlos:You are walking the talk.
Carlos:And the trouble is, and this is the thing, I'm really stressed if you don't share that with anyone, no one knows that that is you.
Carlos:And this is the thing about the marketing piece I was trying to talk about, Lawrence, is that yes, you can be really good at your work and you can get word of mouth, but if you don't talk about it, which is what we did, 'cause we did walk the walk, you know, you spend years blogging, you know about this whole journey of the Happy, Startup School.
Carlos:Without that evident and being out there in the world, then no one would relate to this thing that we're trying to build.
Carlos:And so this, I think being paid to be you is also showing up as you, and this is where I'm hearing this coalescing.
Carlos:Like I am a relentless creator, you know, that is me.
Carlos:And I would love to, if anyone wants else, wants to be a relentless creator, show you how I do it so you could do it too.
Carlos:And that's tapping into my experience of creativity and helping you tap into yours.
Carlos:That's the story I think you're trying to tell there.
Laurence:I feel there's an element to this also of just getting to know Mark and Mark's personality, his interest, his world, his passions, because.
Laurence:Just something about this, just an excuse to be together or something.
Laurence:What was it?
Mark:Yeah, it's a, uh, I, I struggle to actually find the direct quote because, uh, it's a comedian called Pete Holmes and he says it a lot.
Mark:Um, or he has said it a lot in his podcast, it's just an excuse to be together.
Mark:And that's what he describes his, uh, his, his podcast as.
Mark:but I think it applies in, in, in lots of ways.
Mark:And, and you're exactly like, you're exactly right.
Mark:Um, I'm trying to share a bit of myself, not out of some sense of, aren't I wonderful?
Mark:Um, you know, aren't I charming?
Mark:But more to the sense of this is my vibe, this is my frequency, this is, you know, this is me.
Mark:if that energy is helpful to you and you, you know, you want sort of, uh, sit with it for a bit and see if there's something that, that is helpful to you.
Mark:Let's have a chat, you know, drop me an email and we'll work something out.
Mark:And that's kind of the point.
Mark:It's like, if, if there's something in me that, that resonates with you in, in my approach or in the way I talk about myself in my, yeah.
Mark:My personality or whatever, and, and you wanna sit with that for 90 minutes and have a session to help you get unblocked or something.
Mark:Um, or just to feel held or just to feel like you are not alone, like going, that's a, that's a huge thing as well.
Mark:Um, then yeah, you've seen enough of my stuff now to get a sense of, of that and, and hopefully that you feel, feel safe and that's, yeah, that's the idea.
Laurence:And I think that we've found that too.
Laurence:We've, I think me and Carlos in the early days, certainly underplayed our own, play a part in this thing we're building because it was very much about the Happy, Startup, School.
Laurence:Whereas now I think we realize actually people just wanna be in the spaces we create or working with us one-to-one or working in the groups that we hold so.
Laurence:By us sharing our story, being more open about what we, we care about.
Laurence:I think that builds that trust before they get to do that.
Carlos:So the story, um, I'm gonna tell here is if you wanna be paid to be you, you are gonna be comfortable being you.
Carlos:And you putting yourself out there, mark, for me, is showing that you are very comfortable being you.
Carlos:I will put it out there.
Carlos:If you're not comfortable being you, you're not gonna want to be seen.
Carlos:And either you've been, you, you'd rather play a role because that's the role that everyone you think respects or you come to a place of like understanding where you've, to basically a bit of self knowledge, understanding the story of your body of trust, body of work saying, ah, this is me and I want show more of me out.
Carlos:So that I can then help others who want to be not just like, be like me, but appreciate the journey that I've been on, and they want to go on a similar journey.
Mark:Yeah.
Mark:And, and adding to the whole thing about whether it's Yeah.
Mark:Vulnerable or, or, or what it means to, to put yourself out.
Mark:Like, one of the realizations that I had at summer camp was thinking about, you know, I wrote this kid's book, I wrote it under a pseudonym.
Mark:I came up with excuses as to why I did that.
Mark:Um, I wanted a gen gen gender neutral name because I didn't want the reader to identify a particular gender with it.
Mark:I wanted a different name because if you Googled my name and books.
Mark:Very different things would come up that were not for kids.
Mark:Um, because I had a stint as a, an adult audiobook narrator for a bit, and I have no shame and no, no problem with that at all.
Mark:And, uh, it was lots of fun to do it, but it doesn't, jo, you know, identify well with the thing that written around for kids.
Mark:But really those were excuses to hide away.
Mark:Um, I, I wrote and performed songs.
Mark:I released a a three P, you know, a, an EP of three songs in 2017 under a different name.
Mark:I then released, uh, two years later, I released a cover song under the same name.
Mark:and it was, that was me absolutely hiding because I told myself I'm a professional, I'm a software developer.
Mark:I'm a, I, I run a company.
Mark:I'm a business.
Mark:I'm an entrepreneur.
Mark:I can't be sitting lonely on a park bench, being sad about, uh, singing a, singing a mid york cover song.
Mark:Like, that's ridiculous.
Mark:How dare the two things come together.
Mark:and, and there had to be a moment where you sort of have to go if you are proud of that or if there's a part of you that's proud of, or if you are proud of a part of it and you go, you know what, that's, that's the best version of that thing that I could have made right Then at that point and it's easier said than done,
Mark:and it's taken me a long time to get there and I, I wanna find out what the switch, where the switch is worth that I can help other people get there as well.
Mark:It is, it's just that moment of going, if you really did care about it, if you really did enjoy it, why are you hiding it behind another name?
Mark:Why are you walling it off from some people and saying, some people get to consume this thing, but other people over here don't.
Mark:Because maybe it is a, something vulnerable and I can't have people identifying with that.
Mark:And I know, like depending on what you do, depending on your line of work, that may be easy said than done.
Mark:But I think it's worth exploring.
Laurence:There's a question that Florist had about, is it an age thing?
Laurence:Is it a courage thing?
Laurence:Is it something you found easier as you've got older to be comfortable, more comfortable in your own skin?
Mark:Yeah, I think maybe the, maybe the, uh, the fucks that I give a dropping off with, with each passing year.
Mark:Um,
Laurence:not quite zero, but less.
Laurence:Not
Mark:quite zero.
Mark:No, definitely not zero, but, but drop, but dropping.
Mark:it's weird actually.
Mark:One of the things I was thinking about earlier is, is I've never been afraid to put my stuff out there, and I've done it all the time, but I've often been afraid to put it out as authentically me as you.
Mark:Yeah.
Mark:And that's the big difference I think.
Mark:yeah.
Mark:You know, I've, I've, I've had creative diarrhea for some time, you know, whether it is like in music or in in other forms, And, and you know, I think there must be something in, in, you know, maybe in what Flores is saying, like hitting 40 and going, okay, now it's time to actually effectively not to, um, Well, what I'm trying to say is effectively like come out as
Laurence:who myself.
Laurence:I'm sure it's no secret.
Laurence:You called your website Hello Steadman.
Mark:Yeah.
Carlos:I think I, I, when it comes to the age thing, mm, yes and no because I think it's deeper than age.
Carlos:You know, you can get old and just belligerent and you can get, and you can be young and very confident about yourself.
Carlos:I think there's an aspect of not feeling ashamed of the bit different bits of you.
Carlos:I think another aspect for this is like, People go through our programs and they're trying to start a business and they've got, they, they suffer from imposter syndrome.
Carlos:is this, am I allowed to do this?
Carlos:Is this the thing I would do?
Carlos:The thing that you could never suffer from imposter syndrome for is being yourself.
Carlos:And I think this is the, for me, why I am really interested in this journey is like when you are able to claim that this is Mark, Steadman, Mark Steadman is a creative Mark.
Carlos:Steadman does lots of weird and wonderful things, uh, which is essentially tapping into this ability to create, uh, and Mark.
Carlos:Steadman would love to help other people cr do that creative piece for themselves for whatever reason.
Carlos:But I, you know, and that is the story you're gonna tell what creativity does for other people.
Carlos:And a label you could put on me is coach if you want.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:If that helps.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:If that helps.
Carlos:Not because I, I can't be a coach 'cause I don't have the qualifications and you know, I feel imposter syndrome around it.
Carlos:No, no I do this and if you want to use that label for me coach, 'cause it's easier for you than to access what I do for you.
Laurence:I think the key thing for me with the term is the bit before the coach.
Laurence:So you're a coach.
Laurence:I think Eleanor Toyota has been on this before.
Laurence:We know, well she said something like, okay, I've felt, I've seen coaches on LinkedIn, like, what are you coaching people on?
Laurence:You know, a football coach doesn't just call themselves a coach.
Laurence:They call themselves a football coach or a sports coach or a performance coach or, so what's the thing, like you said, what's the transformation?
Laurence:Is it relentless?
Laurence:Creativity coach or effortless business coach, or whatever the thing.
Mark:There's a question, um, from Lucia, um, which I, I think it would be, it would be worthwhile looking at, which is, um, it's hard for me to show myself, um, uh, see, I'm looking to do things only if I have a business partner.
Mark:Is this also a way, um, to hide away?
Laurence:The thing that comes to mind for me is finding business partner is not an easy, it's like finding the perfect life partner, Mr.
Laurence:Wright.
Laurence:Mrs.
Laurence:Wright.
Laurence:That can often be a, a way to procrastinate, I think, um, working with Mark as a collaborator or a playmate, finding someone to be accountable to, that's what I think a business partner can offer skills and accountability.
Laurence:Yeah.
Laurence:But you can, you can find that elsewhere.
Mark:Yeah.
Mark:And, and you, I think I, I've been thinking about, um, my tendency to want to go and seek advice from, you know, Oracles on high or, you know, people that I trust.
Mark:And often when that happens, you know, I have such a clear idea, like I see the road ahead.
Mark:So, you know, fairly clearly a lot of the time, I dunno all the steps there, but I can sort of see the destination and then I'll have a meeting with someone and it's like they've, they've completely just thrown me out of the ejector seat of the car that we were in.
Mark:And I'm like, I dunno where I am now.
Mark:Um, and so I think if you see a path.
Mark:Forwards yourself.
Mark:You don't necessarily know what, have to know what all the steps are.
Mark:And that's where you can ask people in, um, for, for different aspects of how do I do this particular thing rather than how do I get the whole journey there?
Mark:Because, uh, there's a sense that I think maybe you have an idea of where you wanna go.
Mark:and if you see that clearly, then maybe a business partner is, you know, they're gonna have a slightly different take on it.
Mark:Whereas working with someone occasionally, one off or every month or whoever it, you know, however you wanna do it, their job is to back you.
Mark:and there's a thin line there to be walked between being backed and having a cheerleader who's just gonna cheerlead you at all costs.
Mark:You know, that's been a big thing for me is.
Mark:Speaking to people, having conversations with, with people who've been real cheerleaders and then turning up three weeks later going, the thing you cheer cheerlead me to do hasn't worked and it's failed spectacularly.
Mark:And then they've suddenly got all the answers and all the hindsight of why it didn't work, and it's like, really Could have used that three weeks ago.
Mark:Uh, and so that, you know, that that's, that's, you know, that's a thing as well.
Mark:Like, just if it's about going through this with someone else, then, yeah.
Mark:Maybe a coach or a friend or, or, or just that accountability is what you need rather than it have to be a straight up business, um, relationship.
Carlos:No, I, I get that and I said it, it Connects to how I was reading this question, but it started off, it's hard for me to show myself.
Carlos:So the picture I have is stepping up on stage on your own in front of a thousand people.
Carlos:Mm.
Carlos:And the feeling that that creates.
Carlos:In you, you know, the heart pounding palms are sweaty knees, weak
Mark:arms spaghetti.
Mark:Yeah.
Mark:Yeah.
Carlos:But, uh, a real anxiety of being there on your own in the middle of a stage as opposed to walking on stage with someone else right next to you.
Carlos:So the focus isn't only on you.
Carlos:There's someone else who's also there being seen.
Carlos:And so on one hand, yes, there's the business staff and the aligning of the mission and need, you know, and then there's this companionship aspect, this feeling like I am not alone in the fear.
Carlos:And I think that's for me when a lot of people say, oh, I wish, I wish I had a Lawrence, or I wish I had a Carlos, I wish I had a business partner.
Carlos:I wish I could find someone who could work on one hand.
Carlos:They're, they're thinking, oh, someone who could do all the, you know, other bits of work that I'm bad at.
Carlos:I think ultimately one of the things, the thing that most people are looking for, at least in our community, is that feeling I'm not doing this on my own.
Carlos:whether that's winning on my own or failing on my own.
Carlos:And that's what I'm hearing from Lucia is like, I wanna show myself, but I find it so much easier if I showed myself with someone else.
Mark:I don't mean this to be as, um, infantilizing as it might sound, but, um, I think a lot of the time we need someone to hold our hand.
Mark:Um, and that's, that's what that is.
Mark:It's, it's, it's walking out on stage and knowing that someone's holding your hand through that and.
Mark:They're there with you, um, or they're gonna be there just in the wings afterwards that you can, you know, run over to them and go, oh my God, oh my God, was that okay?
Mark:You know, and they can go to the, you know, next
Laurence:summer camp.
Laurence:Me and Carlos are definitely good walk on stage, holding hands just to,
Mark:it's, I, yeah, it's, it's that, it's that degree again.
Mark:Like it's that thing of presence.
Mark:It's that thing of, it was a, uh, Josh Pugh, the comedian had a thing that went, uh, I think a bit viral this week about mates.
Mark:You know, dude saying like, dude, I've got you.
Mark:And it's like, what does that actually mean?
Mark:You know, I've, I've got you.
Mark:I I I'm here for you, bro.
Mark:And it's like, yeah, but in what tangible way.
Mark:Um, and to me, that tangible way is give you a great example and then I'll we'll shut up.
Mark:Um, is the wonderful and sparkling Anya Pearse who is in the chat and who has been peppering with, with links to my things and Thank you Anya.
Mark:Um, one of the things that, uh, she offered.
Mark:When I was doing a Crowdcast, ooh, the end of 2021 I think was, um, just before I was gonna turn everything on, she said, I'll join you for 10, 15 minutes and regulate your nervous system.
Mark:And basically what that meant was just sitting with you for a bit while your, while your energy's up here, up, up and out space, and you are spiraling and go, oh my God.
Mark:You know, million different things to think of.
Mark:Someone who can bring, who can match that first and go, that's where I know you are.
Mark:And then bring slowly, sort of bring that down and match your body language and you know, you mirror me, I mirror you, and it comes down.
Mark:Um, and then you are able to, to go out and do the thing.
Mark:Um, and so when someone says, I got you.
Mark:Um, you get to say, okay, can you be with me 15 minutes before I've gotta do a thing.
Mark:Can you be with me 10 minutes after?
Mark:Can I call you?
Mark:Can we have a chat about this thing?
Mark:And that doesn't have to be a business partner.
Mark:That just has to be a really good friend who's, um, who cares about your success and, and wants things for you.
Carlos:How are we leaving Lawrence?
Carlos:What are you taking away?
Laurence:Well, I think this idea of, well, a just in some ways, like you said, loving yourself to the point where you're happy to share yourself with the world.
Laurence:because if you're looking for validation from LinkedIn or Instagram, then it's gonna be a lonely road.
Laurence:So there's an element of, like you said, mark, stepping into the full version of you and being comfortable sharing that.
Laurence:And if people like that, come work with me.
Laurence:If you don't, it's not for you.
Laurence:So this feeling of.
Laurence:There might be thousands of coaches or millions of coaches, but there's only one Mark, Steadman.
Laurence:So if you wanna work with Mark, this is Mark.
Laurence:So share more of Mark.
Mark:one of the things that, um, I come back to a lot and, and I think ties up with what we were just talking about is how important just company and connection are.
Mark:during the, the height of the pandemic, um, I, you know, as someone who, who lives alone, single guy, um, I was down the virtual pub every Friday on Zoom, getting absolutely, uh, with, with my, with my friends and one of them I couldn't stand, but I was there because the connections were what were important, the connections with the other people and spending time, sharing time with people.
Mark:And sometimes that is an overrated thing.
Mark:Um, and something that we can, we need to look for.
Mark:And, and our, our art can be, our creativity can be a way of facilitating that as well.
Mark:It's the excuse to be together.
Mark:Um, and so, you know, go make your thing and find people to, to connect it with.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:I'm gonna maybe build on that, uh, 'cause I was really taken by the choose question about being hard to show up.
Carlos:Herself.
Mark:Yeah.
Carlos:one of the things that I, I'm always blown away by and warmed at summer camp is this feeling that people feel so comfortable to show up as themselves.
Carlos:And so whether that's doing that more often because you've got a business partner or doing that more often because you have friends you get pissed at with on Zoom or doing that more often because you're part of a community that kind of are happy to see you as you are.
Carlos:The conversation today about when you follow this more or less conventional path of trying to build a business around you and your Happiness and that doesn't align with the people around you, how lonely that feels and how hard that, how much harder it becomes to make stuff and do stuff and to have the energy.
Carlos:'cause you have people around you just don't understand what that feels like.
Carlos:People like whether it's a business partner, me and Lawrence, or we're having a community, like we have the Happy, Startup, School.
Carlos:Having business friends that we have that then in a sense validate the way we're going so it doesn't feel so lonely.
Carlos:Then I think we've got more chance of doing the stuff that is us.
Carlos:And it's lovely to, well, here your journey Mark, uh, and claiming that creativity coach aspect of you.
Carlos:I
Laurence:can't wait for the Christmas song.
Carlos:I'm, I can't wait to see you get loads of people to create their Christmas songs.
Laurence:Yeah.
Laurence:This next course,
Mark:well just for 30 seconds, um, give you a sense of, you know, of, of where this whole relentless creativity thing comes from.
Mark:Again, in the height of the pandemic around May, I think 2020, I was going a bit mad and I said to my whole family, um, over WhatsApp, let's make a music video.
Mark:And we all made, we made a music video of Journeys, don't Stop believing with everybody in their homes.
Mark:And I edited it together and it was a thing of like, it was wonderful.
Mark:It was so much fun.
Mark:It was riotous and, and silly and fun and loud and, just the, the, the balm, you know, that was needed.
Mark:So, yeah.
Carlos:Are you, are you amazing?
Carlos:Are you, are you dangling a little carrot there?
Carlos:A happy start called Christmas video?
Mark:I mean, I mean, I, I, yeah.
Mark:I, I don't hate the idea.
