Podchaser Logo Rate on Podchaser

Episode 101

Getting to know you, with Anna Kolak, and Beccie D’Cunha

How much do you know yourself?

Sometimes the choices we make in life are dictated by unknown forces that seem outside of us. But what if they're actually inside us and we just have to look.

The careers we fall into, the businesses we start and the partners we choose are all guided by our perceptions, beliefs and personality types. Doing the inner work of getting to know yourself can help you make sense of how you got to where you are now and where you go next.

On this episode, Carlos and Laurence are joined by Beccie D'Cunha and Anna Kolak. Both are coaches and have worked with the Enneagram, a system of personality typing that describes human personality as a number of interconnected personality types.

It's one of many frameworks and models out there, but this episode focuses on how the Enneagram can inform us about what really drives our decisions. The four discuss the pros and cons of using these types of tools, what it means for a coach, and how they build their business and serve their clients.

If you've ever been curious about yourself and wanted to take more control of your direction in life then this is the episode for you.

Links

Transcript
Carlos:

today we are going to be exploring, partly I think we're gonna try not to geek out too much on the Enneagram, but we will be talking about the Enneagram quite a lot.

Carlos:

The reason why I'm interested in this is this whole idea around how much we actually know ourselves and what does that mean and how, how do we go about doing that?

Carlos:

And there's so many different profiling tools and, and gurus out there who will tell you who you are, um, and why is that useful?

Carlos:

Uh, and if that is useful, um, how are you gonna use that in your lives and in your work?

Carlos:

So I think we're gonna have a bit of a deep dive into what these tools can do for us and how maybe they can steer us in the wrong direction sometimes.

Carlos:

I'm, I'm, I'm a bit of a skeptic around this.

Carlos:

And I've done the Enneagram test, so I know what type I am, so I'll be curious to find out what that means and how to use it.

Carlos:

And we're joined by Anna.

Carlos:

Or Anya.

Carlos:

Oh no, actually, sorry.

Carlos:

Annie

Anna:

Okay,

Carlos:

Before we start the call, Anna said that she does not like being called Annie cuz it just reminds her of someone horrible at school.

Carlos:

And so of course I decided to just use that knowledge.

Anna:

I love it.

Carlos:

Let's just go there.

Carlos:

And Beccie.

Carlos:

So to begin with, I thought what would be useful is to set the scene is one of you.

Carlos:

share what the Enneagram is.

Anna:

You know, I, I was looking this up the other day cuz I'm always curious how people talk about it, and generally I saw it described as a, um, like a personality framework.

Anna:

And it is that, um, and I think that's maybe an easier way to describe it.

Anna:

But, but I actually don't think of it that way because it's not, it's not like a personality typing tool the way that so many others are out there.

Anna:

And it's not even really a trait typing tool.

Anna:

So there's like the Big Five and the Myers Briggs that talk about kind of different traits and you have this certain.

Anna:

kind of, you know, recipe of traits and then that determines what your type is and your personality and how you act.

Anna:

Um, and that's sort of like a superficial element of the Enneagram, but what the types actually are.

Anna:

So there's nine types.

Anna:

They're actually, they're types of motivation, like core motivation.

Anna:

So a core mo motivation might be, um, sort of like a deepest need in a way.

Anna:

You know, the deepest sort of core thing that motivates like who we are and how we act, um, and what we want and don't want in life is, is the sort of core motivation like to be loved, to be unique, to be not vulnerable, to be safe.

Anna:

And so there's nine patterns of that.

Anna:

You know, I mean there's, you know, there's infinite kind of personalities and ways of expressing personality, but you know, there, there aren't that many patterns, right?

Anna:

And so there's about nine, there's nine patterns of core motivation.

Anna:

And from those patterns, our personalities develop, I mean, not just from those patterns, but you can sort of see how a different person, like if someone doesn't ever wanna be vulnerable, you can see how their personality might develop over time, compared to someone whose core need is to feel loved.

Anna:

You know, but it's not starting from the personality, it's starting from this deeper motivation, which is, um, why it can be sometimes hard to figure out what your type is.

Anna:

Because the way we talk about it is with, you know, behaviors and sort of typical ways.

Anna:

Oh, this person's, you know, they're totally a four, they act like a four, but you can have a someone who acts like a three and they're an eight actually, because why they're doing what they're doing is what the Enneagram is really rooted in.

Anna:

And as far as what it is, there are modern Enneagram teachers.

Anna:

There are people who have, you know, people have sort of traced it to, you know, hundreds, some say even thousands of years ago.

Anna:

It seems to be, I think because it is really about patterns of these organic beings that are humans, you know, like we have the patterns that we have and things change outside of us, but we have, we're still human.

Anna:

So these things have kind of come up over the, you know, millennia potentially, and people have sort of identified and noticed these patterns.

Beccie:

I guess it's often called, yeah, it's often thought of as a system and I think that's a good word.

Beccie:

But I also like the idea of it being a map.

Beccie:

Cuz there's something about the dynamism in it and the movement in the Enneagram that I really love that, I guess a lot of personality style things when it typing can make people feel like they've been boxed.

Beccie:

And I've always resisted that and like labels and boxes.

Beccie:

Um, but what I like about the Enneagram is the concept that it's about, it's a bit easy to say this, but it's a key to unlock the box in some ways.

Beccie:

Like it's a key to growth.

Beccie:

It's a, a map, a pathway to growth, I think, and to transformation, and, and spiritual and psychological, I guess.

Beccie:

It's deeper than most psychological kind of personality typing models that are out there.

Beccie:

And that's where I really like it.

Beccie:

And I think the reason it's deeper is like Anna was saying, it's it's about understanding our kind of, our compulsive behaviors, our habits of thinking, feeling, acting, and why we do that, and trying to then bring a consciousness to that so that we don't just go into that unconscious kind of mode of slipping into these patterns that can be quite destructive.

Anna:

You can get really deep with the Enneagram and it is very deep.

Anna:

There's many layers, there's many nuances to it.

Anna:

You can get really spiritual, you know, people do.

Anna:

And also, you know, what you just said, Beccie, that there's this dynamic aspect to it.

Anna:

It's a map and a path.

Anna:

Like, it's also just very rational.

Anna:

There's patterns of motivation, you know, and personality patterns that are related to it.

Anna:

And then because there are those patterns, there are pathways for development.

Anna:

So like, you know, you can get really deep about it, but it's, it also makes sense like if your, if your core motivation is to to be right, to be good, like you can imagine there are certain pathways for growth from that point.

Carlos:

I think what I'd like to just tap into there, just to kind of set the scene as to ex, you know, why is this interesting or important to people?

Carlos:

What, what do you mean by this pathway to growth and what does that mean in terms of transformation?

Carlos:

What, what benefit?

Carlos:

You know, I'm an old dog.

Carlos:

Why do I need to need no new tricks?

Carlos:

It's like, this is me.

Carlos:

Fuck you.

Beccie:

Look, I think, I think it's a, I think there's, there's a really good point there, Carlos, because I think what the Enneagram helps us to understand or, um, shines a light on are the things that kind of worked for us in childhood.

Beccie:

Like our ways of, um, feeling loved or feeling safe or, um, et cetera, how Anna was saying.

Beccie:

And those things are effect in some ways, the personality trappings, they're, they're kind of they're, um, things that work to a point.

Beccie:

But then I guess they get to, it gets to a point where we don't need that anymore or it's not actually doing us any good.

Beccie:

So on a surface level it could be, so for instance, as a, I'm an Enneagram two, those that know what that means will save it more in due course.

Beccie:

And can I out you as well, Carlos, that you've just found out that you're an Enneagram two, same sub type as me?

Anna:

You just did.

Laurence:

Too late.

Laurence:

Publicly outed.

Beccie:

I'm kind of getting revenge on Anna's behalf.

Laurence:

Yeah.

Beccie:

Um, and so for me, there's a lot of things about being a two that have helped me succeed in, um, work and life, if you look at it on a surface level.

Beccie:

So twos are good at influencing people.

Beccie:

Twos are good at befriending people, winning people over.

Beccie:

And I've kind of always taken pride in that, in a sense.

Beccie:

So that, if someone complains, I can generally turn that around and turn them into an advocate.

Beccie:

I'm the mediator so I can kind of win people over, et cetera, all of that stuff.

Beccie:

But when I started to, started to explore the Enneagram, I realized actually how compulsive some of that is.

Beccie:

That, um, some of it, although it kind of serves me and that it's helped me to be successful in aspects of my work, that actually under the surface when I've looked at why am I doing that, that there's a compulsiveness there, that there's a pride that, um, I hadn't even been aware of, cause I'd always been told my whole life that I'm humble.

Beccie:

And two, but twos have a lot of, like, there's this compulsive desire to be, seen in a particular way, to be liked, to be approved of.

Beccie:

And that can drive compulsive behaviors.

Beccie:

But what it's not doing is meeting the deeper needs that we have, that we are kind of avoiding in that.

Carlos:

I hear you.

Carlos:

And I'm going, la la, la, la, la.

Carlos:

I don't wanna hear, I don't wanna know.

Beccie:

Yeah, me too, I mean.

Anna:

You know, another answer to your question, Carlos, is like, you know, you don't have to, I mean, I personally don't think that there's any sort of absolute reason for anyone to grow and develop.

Anna:

You know, I think like if someone wants to, you know, maybe it's, you know, just someone who's into growth and development or if, if something happens, you know, sometimes people come to growth and development because of some sort of breakthrough or breakdown, and they're interested in doing that.

Anna:

You know, I mean, there are thousands or more ways of doing that.

Anna:

And you know, I think that any, from what I've seen, you know, I've investigated many of those thousands over the years.

Anna:

The Enneagram, I don't think it's like the tool to end all tools, but it's a really, really helpful tool and, you know, framework and sort of thing that supports growth and development, any kind of human growth and development.

Anna:

Because there's like something there.

Anna:

You're not just sort of flailing around.

Anna:

Um, I mean, that's a way to do it too.

Anna:

Yeah.

Anna:

I personally don't love that.

Anna:

You know, that's part of my own work is, you know, learning to let go of frameworks and just flow and, you know, whatever flowing people do.

Anna:

You know, but, so yeah, I mean, you don't have to like, you, you know, like no one has to care about the Enneagram or anything else like that.

Anna:

But if you're interested in getting past limits.

Anna:

And also, you know, it's not just about fixing, but it's also just about, you know, like thriving, too.

Anna:

You know, you can look at the Enneagram in terms of, you know, like, oh, these are things I need to fix or work through.

Anna:

And it's helpful for that, but also these are strengths.

Anna:

Like as an eight, I've been told over the years, you know, variations of like, you're too much, you're too intense, you know, and then I sort of started to hide because of that.

Anna:

And Enneagram stuff has helped me have a very different perspective on that and become much more comfortable with who I am.

Carlos:

So I want to take it to Laurence actually, cuz uh, you know, you were trying to get onto this Enneagram thing this morning and you spent ages just even trying to get the,

Laurence:

Which is a classic whatever number I am.

Carlos:

But I, I'm curious from your perspective in terms of this, you know, one of the things I know about you is that you hate rules.

Carlos:

You don't want to be like, stuck into these.

Carlos:

What, how does it come across to you, this whole idea of, you know, these typing tools and putting yourself in a box nearly?

Laurence:

Well, I think this, this does feel different, and again, I'm not talking from firsthand experience here, but it feels different in terms of the amount of people I know who really, who, who I respect, including these two who, who talk about it in a way that sounds very helpful.

Laurence:

So I think in the past, like a lot of you might have been scarred a bit by Myers Briggs and, and also there, there seems to be like different camps, isn't it?

Laurence:

There's people who are like big on strengths and the strength finder and all of that.

Laurence:

Then there's the Myers Briggs camp, and then we've been coached live on air by Beccie with the Lumina tool.

Laurence:

So there's lots of tools out there, isn't there?

Laurence:

And, and so, I'm curious about this in terms of, like you said, it doesn't sound so rigid and that's what I'm more curious about.

Laurence:

Um, but yeah, I think, like Anna said, I don't think there's any one tool that's gonna, you know, change everyone in, in the same way.

Laurence:

I think it just feels like being open to using this in a way that's more exploratory.

Carlos:

Well here's a question for you then, Lars.

Carlos:

You know, we did the Lumina thing.

Carlos:

Did you find that helpful in any way?

Laurence:

I actually found it helpful in terms of us two together.

Laurence:

I wouldn't say I've worked with it since, but just having a visual picture of like our personality types map together, I've found interesting just to see, oh, okay.

Laurence:

That's why we work well together because we have complimentary, uh, traits almost.

Laurence:

And, and to just see how we both approach different situations.

Laurence:

So I found that bit useful, as a team rather than necessarily as a personal growth tool.

Carlos:

Is there something around why you haven't looked more deeply into it as a personal thing?

Laurence:

I get bored easily, so maybe it's something around, I just don't have the, uh, sort of

Carlos:

You're such a seven.

Carlos:

I think maybe we can go into a bit more detail now as to, alright, what is it, where are all these numbers?

Carlos:

What are we talking about with 1, 2, 3, 4?

Beccie:

I think it's hard to find really good, um, descriptions or labels for each of the types.

Beccie:

So for example, for twos, considerate helper for me isn't a good description.

Beccie:

It's actually, I think it, there's a bit of a myth almost in there that that's what twos are like, that we're givers, we're helpers.

Beccie:

It almost implies that we're behind the scenes kind of cleaning up or whatever, and that isn't it.

Beccie:

But twos do give help sometimes, but quite strategically and I think a better description.

Beccie:

Bit, Beatrice Chestnut, who I trained with, she talks about, she's a two as well, and she describes twos as a befriender, and I think that's a much better description.

Beccie:

It kind of gets to the motivation that it's about connecting with people and relating with relationship oriented.

Beccie:

So for me, I prefer to just use the numbers, but at the same time, I think it's a lot to cover in an hour or less, uh, less now.

Beccie:

So it's good to have a starting point, but just some of them are kind of imperfect.

Anna:

I think the naming is different teachers or different practitioners sort of attempt to really nail it down.

Anna:

And sometimes, you know, it's great, sometimes it's not, you know, I mean, I, I sort of notice them, but I think of it more in terms of the number because that's, you know, just sort of more uniform.

Anna:

Like, so mine, I'm an eight.

Anna:

Active controller.

Anna:

I don't, I don't love that name.

Anna:

I think it's, I don't think it's very nice.

Anna:

Um,, there might be some truth to it, but, you know, it's, it's not my favorite.

Anna:

And also the other thing I generally don't love about the naming is that it does focus on t sort of typical behaviors or characteristics.

Anna:

And while that's valid, it's definitely not always true.

Anna:

You know, like in my twenties even, you know, for a lot of my life when I wasn't happy and very healthy sort of emotionally, I was not anything remotely like an active controller.

Anna:

You know, In fact it took me many years to, to determine what my type was.

Beccie:

I think it's useful to start by saying that, as a way in, that there are three centers of intelligence that the types all fit into.

Beccie:

So at the top eight, nine, and one, they're in the body or instinctive or gut center of intelligence.

Beccie:

Two, three and four are in the heart center.

Beccie:

So feeling or emotional center.

Beccie:

And five, six, and seven are in the thinking center.

Beccie:

So the head center.

Beccie:

It's a good way in, particularly if you don't know your type.

Beccie:

I think not everyone does it this way, but I quite like to think first about the centers and then, so there's three centers, nine types, and then within each type there are three kind of subtypes.

Beccie:

But there is a, say that cuz there's a complex, there's a depth and a complexity in terms of there's 27 types really, or 27 subtypes.

Carlos:

So, um, why don't we take a, a, a whistle stop tour of the different types then, and your impre, maybe your own summaries.

Carlos:

Uh, I'll say a number and then I'll pass it on to one of you to then just give your perspective on what that type means.

Carlos:

So let's start off with ones,

Anna:

So one's core need is to be right or to be good..

Anna:

and maybe another thing to say about that is our core needs tend to come from sort of like an original wound or a narcissistic wound.

Anna:

You know, it doesn't have to be anything traumatic.

Anna:

Sometimes it is.

Anna:

Um, but that's just part of what happens to us as, you know, in our human experience.

Anna:

You know, like when we come out of the womb, it's traumatic and it's just like this, you know, sort of Oh shit moment.

Anna:

And then there's something else that happens early on that's another sort of Oh shit moment that has us realize like, oh, I'm separate, you know, from my mother, from other people and the world.

Anna:

Um, and so, you know, whatever the ones' core wound was, it had them sort of develop this deep need.

Anna:

Plus their personality, like sort of genetics, to be right and to be good.

Anna:

Um, and so, you know, the way that that often plays out in personality is, you know, ones tend to be, you know, very buttoned up.

Anna:

You know, sometimes, you know, you can sort of feel their energy.

Anna:

It's, it's sort of like introverted energy often.

Anna:

And you know, they often look really sort of put together simple, not over the top.

Anna:

They're strict perfectionists, you know, they, they want things to, to be right, to work right.

Anna:

They will often sacrifice anything, you know, their own comfort.

Anna:

You know, sometimes relationships Happiness in life in order to do what they believe is right.

Anna:

So there's sort of this, there is a kind of a belief that there's sort of an absolute truth.

Anna:

Authority can be, you know, something that a one, you know, even if they don't agree with it.

Anna:

Again, not always, but um, even if they don't agree with it, you know, they tend to really kind of respect it because that's the, the right thing

Beccie:

Chris has just put in the chat about the reformer.

Beccie:

That's another title that some use for the ones.

Beccie:

And ones, there is that drive to perfect reform.

Beccie:

And some ones it's expressed as a perfecting of themselves.

Beccie:

Some it's about perfecting others.

Beccie:

Some it's about perfecting the world.

Beccie:

So they can be, some can be campaigners and social justice reformers, for instance.

Beccie:

Um, but yeah, there's, there's a strong, often a strong inner critic.

Beccie:

Ones often repress anger.

Beccie:

Anger is a, important emotion for eights, nines, and ones in the body center.

Beccie:

All of those numbers have a different relationship with anger, but for ones it's often repressed because anger doesn't seem like a right way to behave.

Beccie:

They might feel irritation or resentment, but there's an anger that are often repressing.

Beccie:

And in terms of some of the gifts, I guess I hesitate to say gifts because I think with all of the types, the gifts, uh, Achilles heels as well, and they're kind of e they're still ego kind of trappings in a sense.

Beccie:

But the gifts in terms of the, the are and the positive things that you'll see in ones are, they're, they're often reliable, ethical, structured, hardworking, reformers for change.

Carlos:

Well all you ones are there.

Carlos:

You've just been totally read Now, um, I'm gonna accelerate this a bit because we do have quite a few to get through.

Carlos:

So, um, sevens, we have a number of sevens here.

Carlos:

Beccie, do you wanna give us, uh, a high level seven description?

Beccie:

Yeah.

Beccie:

So sevens are in that triad.

Beccie:

The not triad, the, um, center intelligence, that's the thinking center.

Beccie:

So with fives and sixes, so sevens, um, are, um, they love ideas.

Beccie:

They, they love planning.

Beccie:

Um, but they do a lot of planning, uh, often as an avoidance of pain.

Beccie:

So they're kind of running away from pain often.

Beccie:

They, they're, they're pleasure seekers.

Beccie:

They're aven, they're often adventurous, can be hedonistic.

Beccie:

Sometimes there can be a scatteredness because there's so many possibilities for sevens.

Beccie:

They, they love, uh, yeah, keeping those possibilities open.

Beccie:

And, um, so sometimes there can be a lack of focus with that.

Beccie:

They want to kind of do everything.

Beccie:

And in terms of the gifts, again, the, the, there's a, there's a real optimism.

Beccie:

They're like master reframers.

Beccie:

They see a difficult situation and they can see the positives in it.

Beccie:

They can see the opportunities in it.

Beccie:

And they're really charming.

Beccie:

They're fun to be around.

Beccie:

There's a great energy.

Beccie:

They, they're interested in new experiences, new learning, new people.

Beccie:

Um,

Carlos:

Okay.

Carlos:

Uh, I'm gonna move us onto four.

Carlos:

Anna

Anna:

So, um, fours, fours core need is to be unique, to find meaning.

Anna:

But there really some, there is really something around kind of being unique, being special, genuinely unique and special.

Anna:

fours can be known for being very sort of, dramatic, um, and they like that loving different, any sort of emotional experience of life.

Anna:

So like, if they're happy, it's just this like delicious, happy thing, you know, if they're depressed, if they just watched a sad movie or if something, you know, like terrible happened, you know, I mean, they're feeling the feelings that maybe didn't want it to happen, but at the same time there's this sort of like, like, oh, this is delicious.

Anna:

any sort of range of, of feeling or depth.

Anna:

And their, um, their passion or their vice is, is envy.

Anna:

And some of their, their strengths are also around originality.

Anna:

So, I mean, seeing the, the beauty in all emotions and all kind of, um, aspects of, of life and art, in a really unique way.

Carlos:

I'm gonna pause for a bit on the, going through that because I, there's a couple of questions that are coming up and I think they're gonna be relevant.

Carlos:

So we have, uh, jelly asking, is it possible to be a mix of different types?

Beccie:

It, it, it's not, but it's quite, um, what, what I'd say is it's hard to find an accurate test there is, um, one that I've started using that, um, I know Annie uses, which is IEQ9.

Beccie:

So that is a, a, a more thorough, accurate test.

Beccie:

But most, as you've said, jelly, um, might come up with ones that are possibilities.

Beccie:

And actually it took me a long time to land on my type.

Beccie:

I thought I was a one, I discovered the Enneagram in my twenties and I thought I was a one for a long time, and then, uh, realized that I, I was a two and when I did eventually it was a lot of reading, a lot of workshops, seeing panels, et cetera.

Beccie:

There's a lot of good resources out there to kind of get a feel for which you might be.

Beccie:

So it's good that you might have narrowed it down Jelly to five, six, and seven.

Beccie:

But what that can sometimes tell you is that there's a lot of types that are connected.

Beccie:

So for instance, twos are connected to four and eight through the arrows, and that means that that's about growth or disintegration paths.

Beccie:

So when under stress at my worst and I'm unhealthy, I can take on the downside of eights and fours.

Beccie:

So fours, maybe the moodiness twos can take on, and starting to feel quite down or depressed, difficult emotions around sadness.

Beccie:

And that in at eight I can sometimes just flip and feel the rage or show rage that, uh, eight, eight spike might sometimes do.

Beccie:

Um, but there's a growth path there as well.

Beccie:

For twos, for instance, that I, I know that I need the creativity of fours.

Beccie:

They're looking inwards.

Beccie:

I focus too much on other people's needs and I need to.

Beccie:

Really spend time focusing on my own difficult feelings, unpleasant feelings, and sitting with those sometimes and working out what I need.

Beccie:

And that going to four helps me.

Beccie:

A retreat helps me, creativity helps me.

Beccie:

All the things Fours do really well.

Beccie:

And eights also help help.

Beccie:

It helps me to go to the high points of eight, which is around asserting myself.

Beccie:

Eights and fours are both authentic, very authentic types.

Beccie:

So it helps me to go to eight to learn to express my own needs and to ask for what I want directly, not indirectly, as two often do.

Beccie:

So there's movement and we also have wings either side.

Beccie:

So that could be why for instance, if you're a five, you, you've got your wings of four and uh, six if you are a five.

Beccie:

So that, that's why you can relate to some aspects.

Beccie:

But we are still one, one core type.

Anna:

So another thing that people say is that we're all, we have all the types in us, you know, it's not, you know, like, it's just that there's one that's really expressed the most because of our core motivation.

Anna:

You can actually, As you get to know each type better, you can look to different types for kind of inspiration.

Anna:

You know, there, there was one Enneagram teacher that I worked with who is all about somatic Enneagram.

Anna:

So like all kinds of like body movements and she has sort of her own and then she has people that she teaches develop their own.

Anna:

Like, you know, if I wanna be in the zone of a two for some reason, or a five or a six, like if it's appropriate or helpful with something that's going on in my life.

Anna:

There's even, you know, movements I can sort of practice and take on to feel more in that space.

Carlos:

Well, this kind of leads onto another question really, from Rebecca, and she's interested to know how you apply this in coaching.

Anna:

Sure.

Anna:

I mean, so, you know, I've used it in, in different ways a lot over the years.

Anna:

Um, I used it before, you know, when I was sort of still in corporate and dabbling in coaching, I used it.

Anna:

So, you know, the, sort of, the most overt way to use it, which you know, I do now is, you know, with, with some clients either who are in longer term programs with me or come specifically for any of Graham coaching, um, you know, we'll actually, you know, we'll talk about it.

Anna:

You know, it can be sort of, it can be a focus, you know, they'll do the, the assessment.

Anna:

We sort of talk through the assessment.

Anna:

You know, there's a lot in there.

Anna:

Talk about the type, you know, and some of the things that we just talked about, the wings and the, all of, there's a lot there.

Anna:

Um, and then, you know, can, you know, talk about like what, what in there sort of maybe peaks, you know, sparks some interest for them or feels like, ooh, that might be an interesting thing to look into.

Anna:

And then sort of use that with different practices related to it for development.

Anna:

So that's a really overt way of using it.

Anna:

But I've used it, you know, like over the years, you know, whether I knew someone's type or not.

Anna:

Some, you know, it could be a client, it could be someone at work.

Anna:

But, you know, say it's a client, we weren't, we never talked about the Enneagram.

Anna:

Maybe I didn't know their type, but I could see certain kinds of behaviors or patterns, whether it was their type or not.

Anna:

There are, you know, like because of the patterns in the Enneagram, you know, I could see maybe different practices that might be supportive for their growth, you know, or for kind of like busting out of the box, of personality.

Anna:

I guess one other thing I'll say is I think about my own type, especially as a coach.

Anna:

I mean, in any relationship that I have, but especially as a coach, um, it's helped me become much more aware of like my own, you know, sort of box that I've been living in, um, personality box and, and blind spots potentially.

Anna:

And so I'm much more aware of that as a coach.

Beccie:

Yeah, I, well, I like to use it overtly as well.

Beccie:

Like, rather than, I know some people like to use it as a, even if they're not explicitly saying they're using the Enneagram, they're almost reading people, maybe if they can guess at their type, they might do certain things.

Beccie:

In terms of how they build rapport, I'm, personally, I'm not a fan of that.

Beccie:

I'm not that I don't mind other people doing it, but I think I naturally, I guess there's a two twos naturally intuit what people might be needing and then adapt our style accordingly.

Beccie:

So I, I don't, that does, I don't necessarily do that, but I also don't really like to type people inadvertent, like, uh, covertly.

Beccie:

I prefer to actually do it overtly.

Beccie:

I just find that more honest or more upfront.

Beccie:

So I'd rather, if they want to explore it, I don't really wanna be typing someone in my head.

Beccie:

I'd rather if they wanna explore it, help them do a typing interview or a test, and then to work with them on understanding themselves, doing some of that deep work.

Beccie:

And I guess what I have found useful in becoming an Ingram practitioner, is an awareness of how I'm so in that heart center, who's, you know, firmly in that heart center.

Beccie:

And my coach, often as a coach, as a mediator, as a facilitator and a trainer is, is so about emotions.

Beccie:

And I've realized that actually there's other ways in.

Beccie:

You know, for some people, for people that are body types, for instance, the importance of being held in a kind of more structured environment or, and the thinking types, there'll be other ways into like, they might need to, to gain trust and rapport.

Beccie:

They're, they're gonna need different things.

Beccie:

And so that, that's helpful for me to just kind of broadly speaking to just remember that there's different centers and, and to use all of them and adapt a bit more and not get so stuck in emotions.

Laurence:

I love what Anna said about self-awareness, really about, you know, as a coach to know your blind spots.

Laurence:

It sounds quite useful as a even just in in that of itself.

Laurence:

I think Rebecca said that too as a starting, uh, she's starting out, you know, just to have that awareness of yeah, what are you missing out on?

Laurence:

Um, So, so yeah, I think, this feels like a big sales pitch.

Laurence:

, have you convinced me that this is for me?

Carlos:

Well, I think that bit I'm trying to connect with here is one of the things we do on our Vision 2020 program, we do the single to purpose playbook.

Carlos:

And this whole idea, like what is it is motivating me to do the work, to make the things in the world, to make the impact that I think I wanna make.

Carlos:

And so what is the motivation?

Carlos:

And so in an element of this, where I connect it with the Enneagram is like, what are these things that drive me to, you know, say, oh, I need to create, or I need to make impact, or I need to help people, or whatever it is, so that there's more awareness in that process of like, okay, what is the work that will suit me best in terms of how this whole Venn diagram of making money, doing good, being happy is, is, you know, what does it mean to make myself happy?

Carlos:

How can I do good in a way that's actually aligned and not a destructive behavior because I'm trying to overextend.

Carlos:

And when it comes to making money as well as like, you know, what aspects of my character and personality stop me from doing that, for instance?

Beccie:

I was reflecting on that before this actually, because what helped me in terms of Vision 2020, that purpose playbook, I loved that exercise and that working out what, um, my core needs are and then coming up with the bit that, where we came up with a almost a mantra.

Beccie:

And what it, it really tapped into the Enneagram two thing for me because my mantra ended up being, you might remember this, Laurence and Anna ended up being, because I'm worth it.

Beccie:

And, uh, yeah,

Laurence:

The L'Oreal, L'Oreal approach.

Beccie:

And it's kinda relevant on so many levels.

Beccie:

Cuz on one level I realized that like today, so often I, uh, don't even take time to wash my hair and, you know, cause I'm not, I'm kind of, you know, there's this, this neglecting of my own needs sometimes.

Beccie:

So there's something about L'Oreal ad that reminding me to, you know, blow dry my hair and feel fabulous.

Beccie:

But also it linked into so much around pricing around it, you know, for twos there's this real deep fear of not being worthy of love, and, and being fearful of rejection, which can then mean that I underprice stuff, and the pricing course that, you know, Carlos and Ben did, just to plug that for you, that that was really helpful in kind of what, understanding some of those, you know, linking it to the Enneagram, some of those core kind of beliefs and limitation limits.

Beccie:

So for me it, it, it really helped with that stuff cuz it also made me realize, I teach what I struggle with the most.

Beccie:

I, as a mediator and a coach, I'm, it's all about help.

Beccie:

A lot of my work is about helping people to understand what they feel and need and express it to others assertively and empathetically, and I don't do that enough myself.

Beccie:

So all of that stuff, it helped me to realize what I'm really good at, but also to work on the deeper stuff.

Carlos:

And I, I just wanted to actually throw this over to Anna as well because like what I heard, uh, you Beccie's staff was like this, there's the needs thing that we did on Vision 2020.

Carlos:

I'm seeing a lot of this, particularly now with the Enneagram.

Carlos:

There's a.

Carlos:

, if you want to, there's an opportunity to have a deeper investigation as to where are those needs coming from.

Carlos:

And Anna was saying like, you know, I think, I think you said about ones, you know, some wound in the past.

Carlos:

It's like, do you see that connection where you say, oh, a high level, I see these needs, but actually where are they coming from?

Anna:

That's, that's actually the question.

Anna:

I mean, is, is where they're coming from.

Anna:

That's where I think just almost like, you know, like massive kind of insight and growth can, can happen.

Anna:

We don't, we don't have to know that.

Anna:

But you know, like even if you take something like perfectionism, right?

Anna:

Ones are, they're called perfectionist.

Anna:

They're known for being perfectionist, but they're, and so people will hear that and often think, well, I'm a super perfectionist, so I must be a one.

Anna:

That's what I thought for many years.

Anna:

Like, I am a perfect perfectionist.

Anna:

I mean, it is such a core part of my personality, but it turns out I'm not the reason I'm doing it, like that's, that's where insight happens for me, and understanding and growth.

Anna:

Like, I'm not a perfectionist because I need to be good or need to be right.

Anna:

I Used to really wanna be right, but you know, like I actually care about that.

Anna:

I'm a perfectionist because, you know, on some core level, I came to believe that doing that would help me not be vulnerable.

Anna:

So it's a way to stay sort of safe in a way.

Anna:

That unlocks so much insight for me, um, understanding that like, oh, like, you know, you know, like one eights are known for, sort of a loss of innocence that happened very early.

Anna:

You know, usually in childhood they often, they're often, you know, kids who kind of grew up sooner than a kid should have to.

Anna:

And so they seem really strong and really tough and like very, you know, invulnerable, you know, or when they're vulnerable it seems like, oh, it's so easy for them to be authentic.

Anna:

But understanding that like everything I do is actually about this, like really deep fear that I didn't even know I had.

Anna:

I, I don't even know if I have words for how helpful that's been.

Carlos:

There's an element here and I'm just trying to sort of like pick up on what Rebecca was asking.

Carlos:

He's like, this is like border on therapy.

Carlos:

Do I really want to go there?

Carlos:

This is like quite, this is a Pandora's box potentially of, of all sorts of things that for instance, oh, all I wanna do is start a business.

Carlos:

I didn't actually wanna deconstruct my whole life, just turn into a gibbering mess on the floor.

Carlos:

And I think this is the thing that I, why I'm very curious about this stuff is like on the surface level, yes, we're trying to help people find new ways of working, find a new way of building a business, put themselves out there.

Carlos:

And you can tell people to the cows come home that this is the best thing to do for you to actually get a customer or price well or whatever it is, but without really understanding what is the resistance below that, then you're just basically banging your head against a brick wall.

Carlos:

And then there's a level here of, uh, if you want someone to grow and transform, you somehow need to get their buy-in to want to go there as well.

Carlos:

Because I think that's one of the challenges we may have and we've had in the past, whether it is as an agency or as a Happy Startup School, we really want the people to change, but are they ready to change?

Carlos:

So there's a level I think, here in terms of, uh, maybe we can finish off here about the compassion around this work.

Carlos:

And, you know, there's, I think there's a, there's an evangelism maybe we are having here and oh, this is amazing, but at the same time, we're gonna meet people where they're at as well, it seems.

Beccie:

Yeah, it's a tricky one cuz I guess Enneagram can be used.

Beccie:

It is used in coaching and therapy.

Beccie:

It's worth saying, I think there's a lot of therapists that use it, and I guess it's a bit like coaching in some ways.

Beccie:

You can do kind of pragmatic work, goal setting, et cetera, all of that stuff, and you can do some good work, and you know, short bouts of therapy that do some good work like cognitive behavioral therapy or whatever, that can address some patterns of thinking and behaving, but maybe you'll just only get so far, but you can still do some good work, I guess.

Beccie:

But yeah, for me, I remember, you know, with pricing challenges I have sometimes when I've, you know, just priced too low, maybe undervalued what I'm offering, but probably because of the fear of rejection.

Beccie:

Before, you know, quite a few people have said to me in over time, uh, you know, other entrepreneurs just double your prices.

Beccie:

And it's always really frustrated me because it's like, I can't do it, I physically can't do it.

Beccie:

Or if I did, it would be absolutely excruciating.

Beccie:

Because it's so much more complex than that, it's gotta be the question of why, why do I struggle with that?

Beccie:

What's the, what's getting in the way?

Beccie:

What is it?

Beccie:

What is my, what are my beliefs?

Beccie:

What are my motivations?

Beccie:

What are my fears?

Beccie:

Fears is the big one.

Beccie:

Okay, it's a fear of rejection.

Beccie:

It's a fear of how I'll look.

Beccie:

Will I look greedy?

Beccie:

It's a fear of being greedy.

Beccie:

Maybe it's a, all of that stuff.

Beccie:

And actually until you uncover some of that.

Beccie:

But I think there is, coming back to your question, Carlos, I think there is a, a way of doing it gen gently.

Beccie:

And I think it has to be done.

Beccie:

Um, that's why I like doing it overtly.

Beccie:

I don't wanna manipulate.

Beccie:

I think it has to be done, you know, with gentle questions around help, help me understand why that's difficult for you, or help me understand what you are most worried about there.

Beccie:

and if someone's fearful of going there, I kind of wanna understand that too, I suppose.

Beccie:

But again, people have a choice whether they answer the questions or not.

Beccie:

And some types we'll have a natural fear of, a natural skepticism towards any personality typing or models.

Beccie:

It's worth saying that.

Beccie:

Someone asked that question, I think in the chat about some types, are there different responses to the Enneagram?

Beccie:

Like fours tend to love it cause it's looking inward, it's really exploring the depths of their personality.

Beccie:

Other types like sixes, there might be a natural kind of skepticism of it and a suspicion around it, for instance.

Anna:

So I, I guess I sort of think of things as like, our capacity for what we can do in this world, for kind of our thriving and our contribution and our impact.

Anna:

And, you know, if you're an entrepreneur for what you can do in your business, is in a lot of ways determined by how deep we're willing to go inside.

Anna:

I mean, I guess the other way of looking at it is that can be really limited by how deep we're willing to go.

Anna:

And I don't think, I mean, that's, that's neutral.

Anna:

It's not good or bad.

Anna:

I mean, people can choose what they wanna choose there.

Anna:

But for the people who, you know, wanna go, I mean really to any level of depth, something like the Enneagram is really useful.

Anna:

Again, like, I mean, Beccie said it's, it's sort of, it's a map.

Anna:

And I like that, you know, not, I don't think it's the best tool on the planet ever of all time, but it can be really handy to have this sort of map of patterns.

Anna:

And whether it's, whether it's for your type or not.

Anna:

I mean, even if you're just looking at perfectionism, for example, whether you're a type one or whether you know somebody that you're coaching as a type one, just ju But if perfectionism the pattern shows up, it can be a really handy way to sort of look at, you know, like if you wanna do something about it, if you don't love the perfectionism, or if you love someone who is a perfectionist, it can, any gram can be a really handy way to sort of sort out what might I do there?

Anna:

How might I respond, how might I grow?

Anna:

And I mean, there's people who thought through all of these ma you know, huge combinations of patterns.

Carlos:

I just saw, um, Chris say, I'd hate to coach a one.

Carlos:

Oh, Enneagrams, a Enneagrams a filter for your clients.

Anna:

Oh, they're fun.

Anna:

They're fun.

Carlos:

Laurence, what have you learned today?

Laurence:

What, I don't know.

Laurence:

It sounds like.

Laurence:

A whole rabbit hole of Enneagramness.

Laurence:

I'm thinking, you know, there's tools that we've integrated into our work.

Laurence:

the bit I'm always interested in is like, what's the accessible way in for, for people that's not, yeah, even just when you have these different types and the naming, it can, like you said, it can pigeonhole people or just put people off maybe because they resist it.

Laurence:

So yeah, I'd be curious to explore it more to see what can we learn that we can integrate in our work to get people if they want to go on that path, more curious about, about it.

Laurence:

So, in some ways, yeah, just simplifying, simplifying some of it, it sounds like without diluting it, which is, I guess, a skill with these things.

Laurence:

It's hard to do.

Laurence:

If there was a, a number that you would hate to be in a room full of lots of them, which would it be?

Beccie:

I dunno if I'd wanna be in a room full of any of them, to be honest, cause

Laurence:

Okay.

Laurence:

This is where you like, offend a lot of your clients.

Beccie:

But as in, there's something about the need for balance,

Laurence:

That's sitting on the fence.

Beccie:

I know it really is, but yeah

Laurence:

that's thing to do.

Beccie:

You need to ask Anna that.

Beccie:

She'll be more direct in answering that one.

Anna:

It would probably be fours for me.

Anna:

Even though I lo I love fours.

Laurence:

Yeah.

Laurence:

And all my fours are listening that pay me.

Laurence:

I love you.

Anna:

I have a lot to learn from fours, because I tend to wanna, like, if there's a feeling that I don't like or some, you know, I just wanna like, you know, deal with it, move on quickly.

Anna:

And you know, fours can be the opposite of that.

Anna:

So there's just a lot of like feeling.

Anna:

If it was a room for a full of fours, it would be a lot of feeling.

Anna:

But I also appreciate that

Beccie:

and actually what you said, Anna is a good answer for me.

Beccie:

It, it shows that there's the chemistry between the types, like that might make a difference in people Laurence, cuz for some that would be a, uh, you know, that would be a helpful kind of energy or a, but for others, so probably if you ask different numbers, which they'd find hard it would be different.

Beccie:

Like for twos, maybe being in a whole room full of fives might be challenging because there's a withdrawing in fives sometimes and twos wanna move towards in terms of the relationship.

Beccie:

So, you know, it just might be, it's different, different numbers I guess.

Carlos:

On that, there's a curious note here cuz, so talking to the skepticism, when I first did this, I was a five, and then I did this other thing and now I'm a two.

Carlos:

So that's, and I identified with both.

Carlos:

I was like, huh.

Carlos:

Okay.

Carlos:

On the whole, which, you know, would, which, which type would you not want be in a room full of?

Carlos:

I remember, uh, Alptitude one time, Laurence, what was that thing that Richard Olsen Alderson did with the kind of that quadrants of the leadership thing and put yourself in a quadrant?

Laurence:

Um, um, wealth dynamics, isn't it?

Carlos:

I'm not sure about wealth dynamics, but was something around, basically I was the only one on the other side of the room.

Carlos:

Like there's a whole bunch of fucking visionaries there and I was kind of the, the, the lonely ox who wanted to just get shit done.

Carlos:

All the boring stuff.

Carlos:

So yeah, that can be a bit boring when you're just like full of a room, full of people with ideas.

Carlos:

In terms of the using of the Enneagram, I, I love the idea of the invitation for some deeper reflection, and I think talking to what Laurence is saying, I think there's a, one way that someone's described what we do is like, we just open a door to another little world of things, of toys and, and ways of looking at the world.

Carlos:

And we try and make that door as inviting, as simple to open as possible.

Carlos:

But it's very hard to simplify some of the deeper work.

Carlos:

I think, you know, we, I don't think it's easy to simplify the Lumina, the Enneagram because they are the next step after you thinking, ugh, okay, there's something I wanna work on a bit more deeply.

Carlos:

And so I'm thinking about particularly when we, we do accountability groups, Momentum.

Carlos:

We're trying to get people to do stuff and there's that, that classic whip cracking.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Do it.

Carlos:

You know, what did you do?

Carlos:

What, what did you do?

Carlos:

What'd you achieve this week?

Carlos:

We're gonna achieve next week.

Carlos:

How have you done it?

Carlos:

Like that kind of stick approach.

Carlos:

And then there's maybe of a carrot, like, oh, what is your vision?

Carlos:

What do you feel like you're gonna create in the future?

Carlos:

How are we gonna work towards it?

Carlos:

But all of that won't work unless you really know why you're not doing something or why you really want that thing in the world.

Carlos:

And so to get people to understand some of those motivations, I'm thinking like, okay, they need to open up.

Carlos:

And so to what Beccie was saying, I think is like, how do we gently caress people into that state of like, oh, I, I, I think I need to find out more.

Carlos:

So there's carrot or caress people into actually taking action in the world.

Carlos:

I'm saving that up for the past 20 minutes.

Laurence:

I'm not coming to your camp.

Carlos:

But ultimately we want to get people to, to, to do stuff that's useful to them and, and how do we do that in a way that doesn't feel like we're, we are forcing our own needs on them, I think is the thing that's really interesting.

Carlos:

And that's what, when Anna was talking about our own awareness of what we are is so useful with this work.

Carlos:

Awesome.

Carlos:

Okay, thank you everyone.

Carlos:

Have a great rest of the day.

Anna:

Bye

Laurence:

Cheers guys.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for The Happy Entrepreneur
The Happy Entrepreneur

Listen for free