Episode 98
Resetting in nature, with Sally-Anne Airey and Arno de Jong
There's something about being in nature that helps us reset our nervous systems.
Maybe it's the wonder and awe it can create in ourselves. Carlos likes to think, particularly when around mountains, the awe of being near such massive and ancient structures drowns out the noise of our everyday lives.
And without that noise we can start to think differently and more clearly.
Every year, before the pandemic, Laurence and Carlos would take groups of entrepreneurs and professionals to the French Alps to take some time away from their busy lives and have an opportunity to think about things differently.
It wasn't about following a program or improving ourselves. It was about giving space for the ideas and intentions that we never have time for during our hustle and bustle.
These things get forgotten. And sometimes they're the most important messages we need to hear in order to live more intentionally.
On this episode of the podcast, we are introduced to two friend that Laurence and Carlos met in the mountains and share their stories and our stories of why taking a natural pause is so important.
Links
Transcript
This fireside is really, um, I think speaking to Laurence's and mine and a number of people in our communities need for nature, uh, and also the need to take a break, um, which is gonna be a very difficult thing, particularly if you are a founder.
Carlos:So one of the things that we will be talking to is this idea of like the, the value of, um, taking time for yourself, uh, and giving yourself space.
Carlos:Uh, and, and particularly in the Startup world, there seems to be a, a badge of honor from burnout, you know, this real need to, you know, this part of the journey to just like, work incessantly and, and continuously.
Carlos:Uh, we'd like to maybe challenge that narrative if possible and see why doing something different and not just focused always on work might be of benefit.
Carlos:We'd love to hear any, uh, dissenting voices around that.
Carlos:So if you have a challenge, please.
Laurence:They're too busy.
Laurence:You're not on this.
Carlos:I know.
Carlos:Exactly.
Carlos:Ah, we've failed already.
Carlos:That's why it's a podcast.
Carlos:We'll just like shove it in the ears another way.
Carlos:so, uh, For those of you who are unaware of, um, why we're talking to Sally-Anne and Arno, um, these two are wonderful people that we have met through another person who is also listening Jack Hubbard, while doing our Alptitude retreats, uh, out there in the Alps.
Carlos:How long have we done this, Laurence, these retreats since pre pandemic?
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:2015, 2016?
Laurence:Yeah.
Carlos:Seven years.
Carlos:So we
Laurence:with a two year break.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:With an unfortunate two year break, but we won't talk about that ever again, I hope.
Carlos:Um, but yes, uh, we've, we've had many experiences together.
Carlos:We've, uh, enjoyed wonderful times in the mountains.
Carlos:Um, and while it sounds like an amazing holiday, I've also discovered how beneficial it's been, um, to spend time, uh, in nature in the Alps, and particularly with these two people and all the other people that we bring along with us, um, for the, for the retreats that we run.
Carlos:But to give you a bit of context, I thought what would be first useful to do is just to get a bit of a, a little potted history of both Arno and Sally Ann, so you, you get to know them a little bit more, um, uh, and get to get connected with their stories before we actually talk a bit more about, um, kind of the reasons for this call, really.
Carlos:Uh, so.
Carlos:Um, Sally Ann, why don't you kick us off with a little, um, maybe share what you do at the moment, a and a, a little bit of a story of how you got to, to where you are now.
Sally-Anne:What do I do now?
Sally-Anne:Okay.
Sally-Anne:So now after living here for about nine years, uh, and when I say here, you can see the background is the kind of, uh, loft space that we mainly live in of a, of a big farmhouse, uh, that some of you listening in I know have, you know, have seen and been to, um, It's in a little village called 63 Al in the Jiro Valley, which is
Sally-Anne:Uh, but in the last nine years what I've done is I've been looking ultimately to see how to combine this space.
Sally-Anne:Not only the space of our home, but you know, the wider space with the work that I do in, uh, coaching leaders.
Sally-Anne:Because I'm very interested in leadership.
Sally-Anne:I'm very interested in helping good leadership to, to grow, um, and to help people who, you know, don't lead so well to do that better.
Sally-Anne:So, you know, as a leadership coach, I was just trying to see how I could do more of that here in this place.
Sally-Anne:Um, and in that sense, you know, the pandemic and let's name it, um, helped with that in, in that sense.
Sally-Anne:And so my work over the last, you know, recent years has, has really, um, become more concrete, more tangible.
Sally-Anne:Um, and I think that's been a lot to do with pivoting to, you know, what's possible in this en environment.
Sally-Anne:Um, that said, you know, it is easier for me because I'm living here.
Sally-Anne:Um, and so I can, you know, see what's possible.
Sally-Anne:I think it's more, more difficult when you're coming in from, uh, you know, from outside.
Sally-Anne:So now I'm in a place where I specifically coach leaders, um, to do that better.
Sally-Anne:And I've developed a nine month program that supports that, which includes people coming here as part of that journey.
Sally-Anne:it began nine years ago by simply asking ourselves, what do we want to wake up to in the morning?
Sally-Anne:So why do I say that?
Sally-Anne:Because I guess it's just an example when I, when I reflect back on how that happened, of when you kind of identify the key question that matters in that moment and you act on it, then other stuff will unfold.
Sally-Anne:You know, it is not that everything resolves itself in one moment with one question, but if you can answer that question, and it does take a little bit of courage to do that sometimes to kind of step out of whatever you were in and say, yeah, we're gonna do this because actually it really matters that we wake up to the mountains in the morning.
Sally-Anne:And then from there you've established, if you like, a starting point from which you can see what else might be possible.
Sally-Anne:And I guess that's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell, is over the last nine years, that's what happened.
Sally-Anne:And it's not that it didn't take a lot of hard work and, you know, um, some other difficult decisions and so on.
Sally-Anne:But, but I think it started with that question, what do I want to wake up to?
Carlos:And on that lovely question about what do we really want to wake up to, arno, why don't you share a little bit about your, uh, your work now and also how to, how you as a Dutchman are now living in the French Alps?
Arno:It's always a bit of a, can be a bit of a long story.
Arno:Uh, and also a and a question I have to answer nearly every day, uh, with clients in the mountains.
Arno:Um, and I think more and more to make it a short version.
Arno:I say I love the life of the beaten track.
Arno:And if there's one country where the life is on the beaten track, it's Holland, everything is beaten in Holland.
Arno:And, uh, the whole life is beaten.
Arno:And, um, I felt like I missed some liberty and some space and nature in my daily life in Holland.
Arno:And I felt a bit like ground up day.
Arno:And I was like, if I want to change this, I have to change this radical.
Arno:And luckily my wife, uh, was it my wife already?
Arno:Yes she was.
Arno:It's a long time ago.
Arno:Um, she agreed and she was like, she dared to take the step together and to leave Holland for a new life abroad.
Arno:And I think that was the best step we ever took.
Arno:And what, if you ask me then what we found here, it's actually, I taught some, some clients last days as well.
Arno:I think we found, yeah.
Arno:Freedom.
Arno:Freedom and liberty and uh, yeah.
Arno:And space in our daily life and making our own choices based on more on our hearts than based on society, which is influencing all the time by everything that's get into in our lives.
Arno:And yeah, that, that feels, feels like freedom.
Arno:I think freedom is a big thing for me, and that's what I've found here in, uh, in the Alps, living in France.
Carlos:So maybe describe a little bit about the work that you do and, and, uh, Sally-Anne, you've just saying you just come back from a trip, maybe give us a bit of a picture of what you've been up to or where you've been.
Arno:Yeah, that's maybe one of the best examples of, of one of the trips we, we do.
Arno:So this one is, um, yeah, developed ones in my, in my mind, like a sort of a dream trip I'd like to do.
Arno:And sometimes you just cross a few peoples, like people like the Jack Hubbards around us who are keen to join those kind of adventures and spread a word around, and then, uh, find a few others who are keen to join.
Arno:And then, uh, back country base camp got, uh, born.
Arno:And it's a ski touring splitboarding trip from, um, uh, TP tents and, uh, a little igloo village, uh, somewhere in the back country, in the snowy back country, away off grid from everything.
Arno:And then doing three days from our base camp into the backcountry, uh, tour skiing.
Arno:And, um, making your own food, uh, going down to find a water source to bring some water back up to the camp, melting snow to have extra water.
Arno:Uh, those kind of very basic things.
Arno:So just creating a, a roof above your hat, uh, finding water to cook, to make tea, coffee, and, uh, cook your pasta, and, uh, because we didn't have a thunder, it's not a good idea on these kind of trips.
Arno:And, um, yeah, surviving for three days and back to basic and just enjoying, uh, nature and, uh, everything that comes with it.
Arno:I love it.
Carlos:Wow.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:That sounds amazing.
Carlos:Yeah.
Arno:And, and no phone connection.
Arno:That's
Carlos:And no phone connection.
Carlos:That sounds scary.
Arno:It can be.
Arno:Yeah.
Arno:So we also do trips, more related to Sally-Anne's um, area, so more, uh, mindful coaching focused.
Arno:Uh, this trip is more focused on, on, let's say the fun part of things, but after there's also something happening.
Arno:There was a guy, for example, he was not really in a, in a great shape.
Arno:He was a bit ill on day one and uh, he got even a bit emotional.
Arno:And so I, and I didn't know him and I was like, whoa, maybe, maybe there, you know, he's maybe struggling with something more mentally, maybe overwhelming.
Arno:Some people can get just overwhelmed by, by what's happening by, by the, the, the peacefulness and, and nature.
Arno:And I think, I think there was, he didn't say, he didn't deny he denied it, but I think it was part of it.
Arno:I think he was not only physical, he was just tired and a bit unfit.
Arno:But I think there was also something happening to his, to his mind, which is fine.
Arno:And I try to, to, to tell him.
Arno:You know, this is, this is alright.
Arno:It's, it's fine.
Arno:It's good to, uh, it, it, it is quite overwhelming to, to experience kind of things like this, especially after those two years, maybe not experience, um, experiencing these kind of things.
Arno:Uh, but it's, it's mainly, uh, being away from everything from a bit and, and just focused on each other.
Arno:I call it unplug and reconnect.
Arno:So unplug from all your modernities, like laptop phones and everything, and reconnect and have proper chats with each other and have time for that because there's no need to go home because we stay there.
Arno:And, um, yeah, it's just enjoying that, um, uh, the space really with each other, which is, uh, which I think it's really rich.
Arno:And I think when these people got home and they look back on those pictures, and even me, I sometimes can't believe that we did it.
Arno:Mm-hmm.
Arno:and imagine coming from Holland, never done this kind of stuff.
Arno:It would be, yeah.
Arno:It's, it's crazy.
Arno:I think, it's, um.
Arno:And also a, a thing of achievement.
Arno:It's like, hey, I'm able to survive three days into the wilds, uh, with just a tent or an igloo and water and some foods, a little box of wine, I have to say and, um, yeah, of course we,
Laurence:and a box of cheese, no doubt.
Arno:No cheese.
Arno:No.
Arno:No cheese.
Arno:No cheese.
Arno:No, no.
Arno:It's too happy to bring.
Carlos:Um, well, I'd like to pick up on, no, there's two things each of you.
Carlos:One thing each of you said each was like, one was like what, this real clear question about what is it I wanna wake up to in the morning or whatever that question I feel is equivalent to each person.
Carlos:And then what from Arno is this thing of going off the beaten track, and which for me seems to be quite key to a lot of the work both of you are doing, but also connects to the work that we are doing about having pinpointing what is it that needs to change, I feel, and then realizing that might not be a thing that other people automatically do, might be something you have to try that's different.
Carlos:And what that means in terms of your own experiences personally or maybe the people that you work with of working with that, of making a decision that's quite big.
Carlos:And then, moving forward and making it happen.
Carlos:And you've already touched on your journey and story about it, but maybe to start off with, what is it you think holds most people back?
Carlos:And in your experience of the people who have tried to answer that question of what do I wanna will up wake up to in the morning and then try to make that happen?
Carlos:What is it that motivates them and pushes them and keeps them going?
Sally-Anne:I think what holds us back, you know, as human beings generally is, you know, is some kind of fear, right?
Sally-Anne:And, uh, fear is completely human, completely normal, and, uh, In my experience, what's really helpful is when we can just realize what it is.
Sally-Anne:It's almost, oh, there high, hello, fear, you know, and kind of befriend the fear.
Sally-Anne:Acknowledge the fear first.
Sally-Anne:You know, recognize what it is, maybe name it, whatever you know, and befriend it because it's there to tell us something.
Sally-Anne:It's there to warn us, and it's for us then to judge if you like, whether or not that fear is, um, reasonable, something we ought to take into account.
Sally-Anne:Or, or perhaps not necessarily that it didn't necessarily stop us from what another part of us really wants to do.
Sally-Anne:And I think what happens when we come into nature, and particularly the mountains and the whole metaphor of the mountain, you know, huge and immense and majestic, and something that you climb and all of that.
Sally-Anne:I think what happens is we get some of that into perspective.
Sally-Anne:I think it helps, as you know, Arno was just saying, at least what I was hearing was, you know, when you get out there in the back country, it might bring up some, some deeply held emotions that have been, you know, perhaps buried a bit, maybe.
Sally-Anne:And, um, you face them and you get through it and uh, you know, you start to realize what really matters, I think.
Sally-Anne:So you might come away from a week in the mountains, and something significant might have happened inside, and you can feel it, but you're not quite sure what it is.
Sally-Anne:And I think then what's helpful is to take the time to process it, whether it's with your, you know, your friends, your partner, with Laurence and Carlos, whatever, but take the time to process it, you know, figure out what just happened, and what, if anything, do I want to do with this?
Sally-Anne:And then it might take, you know, quite a long time to, to, to figure out the how and the what.
Sally-Anne:And this isn't, this is not a kind of a quick fix, but it could be a moment where some kind of light gets, gets on something that's been hidden.
Sally-Anne:Or it might just be up, end up being a really fun week in the mountains.
Sally-Anne:You know?
Sally-Anne:I mean, it doesn't have to be a deep revelation.
Sally-Anne:But I think it's worth being prepared for that, you know, my experience of Alptitude and my own work for the last few years.
Sally-Anne:You know, that can happen, can't it?
Sally-Anne:And then you know that you are in a group, in a safe space where you're gonna be able to express that and share it and people will get it.
Sally-Anne:But I think the next part is down to a lot of thinking, a lot of processing, a lot of care, a lot of compassion.
Sally-Anne:and some gentle steps, you know.
Arno:Uh, I, I remember a friend once saying like, Hey, Arno, he felt a bit offended by, by the way, I sold my life here.
Arno:And he, he felt a bit offended, like, oh, uh, we are all stupid.
Arno:We are not leaving Holland.
Arno:I was like, no, that's not my message.
Arno:You know, definitely not.
Arno:I think if, if someone is happy with his daily life as it is at the moment, his job and everything, you know, it's great.
Arno:Then be, be, be grateful for that.
Arno:And if you would like to do a big change like we've done and Sally-Anne, uh, has done, maybe that's great as well.
Arno:But, um, I think it's, it's very important to, um, to, uh, be happy with your, with your daily life.
Arno:And if that's not the case, it's good to wonder why, what's, what's not going, uh, what's not the thing you're, you're happy with?
Arno:And sometimes people can be really, I dunno, stuck in, in routine or maybe also, you know, um, uh, responsibilities of mortgages and that kind of stuff, which we also have things a few months.
Arno:We bought a house lately, so it's funny.
Arno:I I feel that now as well.
Arno:I, I, I, I definitely have the feeling more that I have to create more income and espe and, and, and, and straightaway made less time for myself, uh, because you feel a bit of a pressure to, to, to bring more money in, to, to have more security.
Arno:And it's funny because I always say my, my freedom is much bigger than that, but as soon as you get a mortgage, then yeah, things change a bit in your hat.
Arno:Um, yeah.
Arno:And it's, it's a certain fear of uncertainty maybe.
Arno:And, uh, I think it's, for a lot of people it's, it's just people say, oh, you, you guys were so, have been so brave to, to take the step to leave everything and start a new life.
Arno:We didn't have much to lose.
Arno:And we always said, we have a lot of stuff to gain and to to, to win and to develop.
Arno:And I think we, we did.
Arno:And it's, it's something you can't control.
Arno:You don't know, you know, it's, it's, yeah, in uncertainty, I think.
Arno:And that, that's a big thing for many people.
Arno:Uncertainty is, um, is uh, can be a bit stressful and like covid last two years, I think there was lot of uncertainty.
Arno:We losing control.
Arno:Uh, we don't know what next day or next week brings or next year and um, yeah.
Arno:And then related that to, to mountains and I think that's, that's a very nice thing as well.
Arno:When I talk to my clients last days, in the mountains you have all the time have to change your plan.
Arno:So you, you, you go for something, but you have to, to to change your plan all the time.
Arno:And it's, it's because of nature is leading us and it's not us in control, but it's nature that's in control and we just have to listen.
Arno:Mountain speak wise, men listen, they say and, um, if, if you just listen to yourself and stick to the plan, I think that's the worst you can do.
Arno:And that's maybe a bit the same in daily life.
Arno:You know, if you just stick to your plan and just focused on, on, on one outcome, it's not working.
Carlos:So there's a, well, there's a few ways we can take this.
Carlos:I think one of the things I was curious about what you said is like, what do you have to lose and what do you have to gain in this change or this thing that you're going to do?
Carlos:And Laurence is there because I was immediately was thinking about us closing down the agency and starting the Happy Startup School.
Laurence:Well before that, the one thing that came to mind was when Arno was talking about listening to nature was uh, the, I think one of the first trips we did, uh, cuz we had the schedule for the week, right?
Laurence:And Carlos's need for structure and mine, but yours more than mine.
Laurence:And then being told we can't do rafting on Tuesday because, you know, the weather's not gonna support it.
Laurence:It's gonna be too, uh, the river's gonna be too high.
Laurence:So, yeah, I think it's a good metaphor for the week, isn't it?
Laurence:Um mm-hmm.
Laurence:having to adapt to uncertainty.
Laurence:I mean both, what, what you both said was just bang on.
Laurence:I think fear and uncertainty are, are obviously huge, huge things in the way people doing what they wanna do.
Laurence:I, I suppose belief you could have there somewhere, I dunno if those things block that.
Laurence:And actually when we, you know, when we made the decision to close the agency, it was after our first trip to the out.
Laurence:So I don't think that's a coincidence.
Laurence:Um, it wasn't our intention going out there.
Laurence:We were hosting the trip.
Laurence:Um, we might think we thought other people might have those sort of breakthroughs, not us.
Laurence:And, um, I suppose we just used some of the time just to be able to share some of the things that, you know, were on our mind around where we were at with the business.
Laurence:And so having that platform and the space, and like Sally-Anne said, that perspective was huge to share some of those things out loud.
Laurence:Um, and, and in some ways when I talk about belief is inner Abel belief, which I, I always had to some extent.
Laurence:But then getting that belief back from others, and having that sense of time and perspective of what's important, like Sanne said, I think gave me more belief to go actually, yeah, what's, there's so much more to gain than there is to lose.
Laurence:Whereas before maybe it would've been, you know, there was a lot to lose because a lot of people around us, uh, maybe family friends, didn't really understand what it was like to make such a big shift.
Laurence:And being surrounded by 20 other people who were much more cheerleaders and supporters and, and knew what it took to make a decision like that certainly gave me more confidence that actually, yeah, at the very least, if it ends and it doesn't go well, we're gonna meet some amazing people and it'll be an amazing failure rather than, it's either it wins or it loses, and we look like failures.
Laurence:So I was, I'm a big fan of looking at the, the best upside, if that makes sense.
Laurence:You know, like, what does it look like when it fails, but what's, what, what would go well, even if it failed?
Laurence:And I always saw those relationships that we would build, and the l the learning we would make would put us in good stead, whatever came next.
Carlos:So there's, there's an aspect here that I heard from Laurence, was this, what we found by being away somewhere that's out of your normal day-to-day context, you can satrt maybe getting rid of the noise and stuff's coming up.
Carlos:It sounded like maybe with that person that went on your trip recently, Arno.
Carlos:And then there's something about being surrounded by people and I think Sally-Anne referred to this is like having a safe space to then just articulate maybe what it is that you are considering or worried about.
Carlos:So that then maybe that helps you come to some kind of resolution or better clarity.
Carlos:I'm wondering here as well though, in terms of the amount of time that can take.
Carlos:Cuz I know, and recently I've been talking to some friends around doing a bit of a trip.
Carlos:And there's is something around, it takes at least a day just to, to land.
Carlos:And when there's a certain amount of time just to get into a space where you're not fully still back in work or at home or whatever it is with the busyness.
Carlos:And, and Arno talked about this whole audience switching off phones, getting away from distractions.
Carlos:But I'm, I'm wondering about, uh, so I'm trying to communicate the idea or explore this idea that we need space and also we need space to get to that place of space, if that makes, we need a bit of time to really actually get into the right way of thinking.
Sally-Anne:I'm just interesting the way you were putting that Carlos.
Sally-Anne:It was making me think that, you know, we can walk our bodies into a space, but we might well leave our minds behind in another space solving another problem somewhere else.
Sally-Anne:And so sometimes I think we do have to kind of be very clear in our intention.
Sally-Anne:and to consciously create the space.
Sally-Anne:So we can actually do that, you know, anywhere, in any moment we can choose to do that.
Sally-Anne:And I teach people a tool to sort of help with that, but I think when we do step physically into, into nature, wherever that may be, whether it's the South Downs, you know, where you guys are or the mountains here, or people are near, near the sea, I mean, that's a magnificent open horizon space.
Sally-Anne:if we decide to go for a walk in any of those spaces of nature, I think if we, if we do it consciously, mindfully, if you like, if we do it with the intention of being fully present in that space, it can deeply enrich the experience.
Sally-Anne:Otherwise, we're kind of taking our body for a walk, but.
Sally-Anne:Not really there.
Sally-Anne:I'm guessing Arno, you know, in the, particularly with the trip you've just done this week, you know, you're sort of, it's hard, but in, in another sense, easier because, you know, you've, you've left your phones behind, or at least they're not switched on or, and you, you can't avoid being in that space, right?
Sally-Anne:You're almost confronting that space.
Sally-Anne:So I suppose there's degrees of this, you know, there's going for a walk in the country, thinking consciously about being present, tuning into your body and so on.
Sally-Anne:And then there's, being there and, uh, having no alternative but to confront it.
Sally-Anne:And that might bring some stuff up cuz whoa, this feels different.
Arno:I remember once I did a Tour du Mont Blanc and it was a guy from America and probably he was a bit stoked and just impatient to, to, to go for the, for the trip to start.
Arno:But there was a few things to organize and we had to go to a little bike shop and I was like, this guy needs to unwind really.
Arno:Um, he was still in his daily live rat race motors.
Arno:And, uh, sometimes you hear this as well in those Sally-Anne, those mountain restaurants here, like they try to calm those ski tourists down.
Arno:Like, Hey, we're in the mountains.
Arno:Take it easy.
Arno:And, um, yeah, I think, I think, I think we can all suffer a bit from it.
Arno:It, it takes a little moment to sort of unwind, but I think there's a difference.
Arno:For example, I suffer from that when I'm going on a holiday myself.
Arno:But you're still half in your daily life situation, you know, you, you change your house for 10, but you're still surrounded by your kids and you still touch your phone in your pocket.
Arno:You get some unfinished stuff and then it takes time.
Arno:And there's also, uh, an opportunity to continue your normal life.
Arno:While if I drew a trip like yesterday, as soon as we click in our snowboards and put our backpacks on, and then you, you literally go into the unknown from that moment.
Arno:It's, it's that, it's that.
Arno:And that's an interesting little bridge to, but I thought about it.
Arno:I often tell people my most mindful moment is when I'm working.
Arno:And I think that's quite interesting and, and luxury as well, because I can really be present with my clients at that moment with, and Sally-Anne knows that I really struggle with in my daily life.
Arno:So that's a great position.
Arno:Being mindful when working.
Arno:How, who, who can say that?
Arno:Yeah, maybe mindful coaches.
Arno:I don't know, maybe not.
Arno:Um, yeah, so I think as soon as we do like, um, about Back Country Mountain Adventure from that moment as you, yeah.
Arno:And sometimes people leave in the morning with a flight from somewhere from Brighton, from London or whatsoever to Geneva, and it's only a few hours between leaving your house and being in a mountains.
Arno:But I think as soon as you leave things behind you, then yeah, it's sort of, how do you say, un unfold?
Arno:Is that the,
Laurence:Hmm,
Arno:So it depends about what kind of holiday or trip it is, I think, and what kind of situation.
Carlos:What I'm, I'm drawn to talk about a little bit here is just taking time, firstly taking time to do this.
Carlos:So it feels like the more time we can take to create space, to land, to then get immersed into wherever you are, this, in this case in the mountains, that's gonna be more beneficial because you're more present and you are than you are allowing, you're away from the distractions.
Carlos:And some people will say, oh, I just don't have the time.
Carlos:I can't take the time to do this.
Carlos:This is so much of a luxury.
Carlos:And so it feels like, yeah, a week.
Carlos:Wow.
Carlos:Who, who's got that much time?
Carlos:And then the other aspect of this around time is like, and I've found this a lot, is like how your experience of time just shifts when you are present, when you are in the mountains and when you are with people who are also present.
Carlos:So, well, you know, my pitch is like, it might seem like a week, but sometimes each day feels like a week cause there's so much in there.
Carlos:And you come back feeling like you've been away for ages.
Carlos:So, I dunno, maybe if you could speak a little bit to that in this whole idea of like how much actual time and the experience of time by being somewhere like in the mountains and doing an adventure.
Sally-Anne:Time's a funny thing, isn't it?
Sally-Anne:You know?
Sally-Anne:Um, and it's all about our relationship with it, which is what you've just been talking about.
Sally-Anne:So, you know, when we go back to the Greek philosophers, you know, Kronos saw time in the way, you know, chronology one thing after another, and then Keros was very much about time in the present.
Sally-Anne:I think as human beings speaking generally, you know, we have a tendency to, to cram it to, you know, reward ourselves for a checking off our to-do list.
Sally-Anne:Nothing wrong with that has to be done.
Sally-Anne:But, you know, over time, if we're not careful, our relationship with time can become one of racing it, you know, constantly checking it, cramming it.
Sally-Anne:And I think nature, getting into nature helps us to recalibrate that a bit.
Sally-Anne:You know, if we go and look at a tree or look at the sea, or look at a mountain or a field or whatever it may be, or a flower, a butterfly.
Sally-Anne:I was looking yesterday, the crocuses have come up here very early.
Sally-Anne:It's a warm March, isn't it?
Sally-Anne:Arno And uh, we've got a ton of crocus in our garden and it was just full.
Sally-Anne:They were just full of bees and butterflies.
Sally-Anne:And I just paused for a moment, even though it was a busy day and, and I, what I noticed, as you said, in that moment of looking at the butterflies and the bees and the crocuses time sort of slowed down.
Sally-Anne:We can all relate to that, I think.
Sally-Anne:So we have to make sure that we build in those moments in our life to allow that, to give ourselves permission just to watch the bees for a bit or whatever.
Sally-Anne:Because you can guarantee that after just one moment of doing that, something would've changed.
Sally-Anne:And all that's changed is our relationship to it.
Sally-Anne:Nothing else is the to-do list is still there.
Sally-Anne:But we feel different, right?
Sally-Anne:Because we've taken a moment to be present.
Sally-Anne:and it shifts the relationship.
Sally-Anne:So I think if we look at our lives and I, I've been there enough times and sometimes I still am, you know, or I just wake up and think, what the hell am I doing?
Sally-Anne:When did I last stop?
Sally-Anne:And then kind of decide, okay, I'm gonna stop for a minute.
Sally-Anne:It's just a reminder.
Sally-Anne:So I think if we can do that over a period of days, it just helps, it helps the recalibration, it helps it to kind of instill itself a bit more.
Sally-Anne:And then I, if we're questioning if we have the time, then that's a really Important question.
Arno:Yeah.
Arno:I think it's important for all of us to take some me time.
Arno:And if we, if we ignore that, um, that, that, that, that need and just push it away and just focus on the must dos, yeah, we, we always, um, end up with some trouble, I think.
Arno:And for example, me, I had, uh, in French you say the lumbago, lower back pain, and I was off for a week, couldn't work for a week, couldn't do, uh, DIY in a new house for a week.
Arno:Yeah, now you, you, you ask yourself like the question like, Hey, where is this coming from?
Arno:Is this stress?
Arno:Is this maybe, maybe too much?
Arno:Must-dos, uh, not enough time for yourself?
Arno:And, and I went to my, um, osteopath and he asked me, did you do some split boarding this year?
Arno:Do you?
Arno:And I was like, no, actually, no, no.
Arno:I was just been working in DIY in the house.
Arno:And, and then you realize, Hey, I miss my me time.
Arno:And, and I think we all need that sometimes to recharge our batteries and, um, have a little moment of reflection or just fun or, um, but it takes time to, to take the time.
Arno:But it's an investment in yourself, isn't it?
Arno:It can be half a day, can be like, a few minutes, can be a little trip a weekend or a week away.
Arno:But, um, yeah, we all need to invest in ourselves in, uh, to recharge the batteries.
Arno:And if we ignored it, then yeah, it's struggle.
Arno:And I, I, I thought about when I was little, uh, thinking about this, This session, I thought about a very funny ex um, a funny example with our good friend Jack Hubbard years ago.
Arno:Uh, he gave me a call like, Hey Arno, let's go climbing.
Arno:And I was like, no man.
Arno:I'm too busy.
Arno:I'm doing marketing stuff.
Arno:I need to get, remember this season started.
Arno:And, and I, ah, come on dude.
Arno:Let's go climbing.
Arno:I was like, wow, we fine.
Arno:And I went climbing.
Arno:I dropped everything.
Arno:And then during the climbing I got, um, a phone call from inquiry and I came back home.
Arno:I checked my email and I had two inquiries for the season.
Arno:So within that climbing session, honestly, I had three inquiries while being away and choosing for some me time.
Carlos:I hear there, and maybe this is some, I dunno if other few people might feel this is like, it will all like fall apart if we're not always there.
Carlos:So if we take time off, if we go somewhere, then actually the business will die or things will not work.
Carlos:And I, I just need to always be present with the things, the stuff.
Laurence:There's something about obl, um, the oblique approach, isn't it?
Laurence:You're trying to get sales, for example.
Laurence:So what you did there was just go the complete opposite route, like walk away from the problem.
Laurence:And I've found this again, and I've learned from being in nature with you guys and, and Jack as well, in terms of just trying to be a bit, trying to try less hard.
Laurence:Um, and by trying less hard, actually weirdly, things seem to happen more easily.
Laurence:Um, but there's this letting go of that feeling of control a bit, isn't it?
Laurence:Of like, oh, if I keep being busy, then I'll get more things done and that will help me achieve the results I'm looking for.
Laurence:And one, just quick, one thing came to mind was without, I find this every time I go, whether it's that or, um, some of the other trips we done, we went to Snowshoe one time for a few days with, you know, both of you, which was awesome, is that thing of, even if you don't get the things done that you wanted to get done, when you come back to your to-do
Laurence:So it, for me, it just shifts priority and perspective.
Sally-Anne:I think the thing with doing and necessary as doing is, of course, if we are over focused on it, it can, it can narrow our, our capacity to, to see what else, you know, we kind of, we can become a little bit narrow.
Sally-Anne:Um, I say that carefully because it's very dependent, you know, it's not, this is not a general rule of thumb, but I think it's just something to be aware of, and to ask ourselves about.
Sally-Anne:And remember that, you know, we're also thinking and feeling beings as well.
Sally-Anne:We're not just doing beings and ask ourselves, you know, is the balance right, right now?
Arno:And what you learned me as well, Sally-Anne.
Arno:I, I, I often, um, repeat it in my head, like, must do or choose to do?
Arno:I think that's a very important one as well.
Arno:It's like, there's so, so much, so often the word must, I must do this.
Arno:And now, sorry, I I can't because I must do this.
Arno:It's a choice, isn't it?
Arno:What you do.
Arno:And, and, if you choose to do, uh, the, I would like to then, uh, it's, it's completely different from must do, isn't it?
Arno:And because they, it's a pressure on us.
Arno:Uh, after that we have so many things we must do from ourselves.
Carlos:Bringing it back again, back to what Sanne said at the beginning of like, what do I wanna wake up to?
Carlos:It's like, That are connect to making useful or powerful choices, connecting that to priorities and understanding what is important to you?
Carlos:What is the thing that you are going to say yes to based on needs, whatever we wanna articulate a vision for how you wanna wake up or live.
Carlos:one particularly thing I wanted to try and leave on for people who are listening, particularly if you are, you know, you, you are a habitually busy or you feel like actually you're such a lynchpin in whatever that aspect of your life is, whether that's business or home life so if you, if you, if you are not there, everything will explode or not, not work.
Carlos:So there's one level is like justifying it to yourself, giving yourself permission to, to take time for yourself, and then how you communicate that to the people around you.
Carlos:So if you were gonna help someone first, and I think we tackle justifying it to yourself, but maybe there's anything else you wanna add to that, and then how you would help someone have the, the confidence, the clarity to then communicate to others around them like that I need to do this, this is important.
Carlos:How, how would you frame that?
Carlos:How would you phrase that?
Sally-Anne:I think, I think it depends, you know, I think it really depends on who that person is and, uh, you know, when we communicate our wants and needs, um, being really aware of where that person's coming from.
Sally-Anne:You know, looking into what they might want and need, and therefore how is our request going to land?
Sally-Anne:And also, you know, the situation.
Sally-Anne:What's the context at the moment?
Sally-Anne:Is this a good moment?
Sally-Anne:How, if it's not a good moment, how could it become a good moment by, you know, looking at it a different way, say.
Sally-Anne:So I think it's, it's really about taking in, you know, I think, you know, communication is so much about taking account of other people's points of view, isn't it?
Sally-Anne:And um, so if we're trying to influence someone to support us to do this thing that we really want to do, um, maybe there's a trade off.
Sally-Anne:You know, just being practical about that.
Sally-Anne:Maybe there's something there to negotiate if, you know, if you're busy, busy partners in a busy business, in a busy family.
Sally-Anne:I know what it's like to work full-time and have small kids, and for my, for.
Sally-Anne:Partner to be in the same position and to negotiate this stuff.
Sally-Anne:So I think there's a practical question of, of negotiation, you know, of what's kind of, what's in it for me, what's in it for you?
Sally-Anne:And, and recognizing, acknowledging that.
Sally-Anne:So that would be my kind of practical take on how to approach it.
Sally-Anne:Um, but I think also when we want something, it's having the courage to speak from the heart about it.
Sally-Anne:And, you know, love is listening, isn't it, in its purest sense.
Sally-Anne:So, you know, finding the right moment, taking a breath, being aware of where the other person is, and speaking from your heart, you know, something like that.
Arno:I think if I speak for myself, I think, uh, my wife Jess, knows that I'm a more nicer person for her and my boys.
Arno:If I, some, sometimes, um, take some, some time for myself and, uh, come back as, yeah, uh, refreshed and, and, and a happy man and yeah, better, better listener and a nicer guy, um, for the people here in this same house.
Arno:Um, so there's definitely everyone is, everyone is, um, how do you say, making the most of that.
Arno:That's well sold.
Arno:But yeah, yeah.
Arno:No, it's true.
Arno:I think you have to, um, yeah, to speak it out loud and, um, and, and, and, and be honest about your, uh, your, your wishes and your, your, your dreams and communicate that and try to make time for it.
Arno:And try, try to, yeah.
Arno:You have to plan stuff, isn't it?
Arno:You can't, you can't say, Hey honey, uh, sorry, I'm actually next week, uh, I'd like to go to altitude for a week.
Arno:I think you need a bit more time to, um, to, uh, prepare these kind of things, isn't it?
Arno:Because, uh, a week away is quite long.
Arno:Um, but yeah, if, if you come back as a, as a nicer person for your, for your, um, closest family, that's, um, that's already a win-win for everyone.
Arno:And also, I was really happy when I did about a bike trip last September that my wife, two weeks later was going on a mountain bike trip herself as well with her friends.
Arno:And, um, so I think it's great when she does those kind of things as well.
Arno:And, it's sometimes I have good feeling.
Arno:I often ask these questions.
Arno:I, especially on mountain bike trips, I work with a lot of men and sometimes I wonder.
Arno:do we, man, grab more the opportunity to take this mean time than the ladies do, but maybe that's another conversation.
Arno:Sorry.
Arno:Because Jess sometimes, uh, I think she, she needs those, those moments as well to, to, to escape it for a bit and, and, and recharge the battery.
Arno:We're all needed, isn't it?
Carlos:I think there's that interesting point connecting to what Sanne.
Carlos:you know, saying around, you know, what do you need?
Carlos:But then also what does the other person need?
Carlos:And then how do they either work together or they might come into conflict.
Carlos:So then there's, like you said, so maybe there's no negotiation.
Carlos:But then there's, there's also an element of like, if it's all just, oh, you know, I am the person who's always going away or doing something, what, what's going on for the other person?
Carlos:What can they get from this experience and what are they, do you give them permission, whether it's colleagues or partners, to then take their time to address their needs?
Carlos:And maybe someone needs to actually, um, start doing that somehow and taking some kind of a, uh, yeah.
Carlos:I'm, I'm allowed to say control, but initiative, I think is the best way to put it.
Carlos:Some initiative around taking time out for themselves.
Carlos:And how maybe we'll be happier together if we are happier to be alone once in a while.
Laurence:I, I like what has been said already, just about, I think Sally-Anne's just saying, I need this, you know, for myself and maybe you can't un you can't explain why.
Laurence:So there's an element of trust there, I suppose, in any relationship or, um, he could even be a colleague or a co-founder even, you know?
Laurence:And I think back to, before we even did these trips, I probably went on what might have seen some indulgent overseas trips from events and conferences.
Laurence:And I really couldn't put my finger on why I thought I needed to do them.
Laurence:But my wife was very supportive.
Laurence:Um, and hopefully over time it's paid back.
Laurence:But there was a real, there wasn't a clear sort of, I do this, I get this result.
Laurence:You know, it was like, I just feel like I need to be there and I can't explain why.
Laurence:And over time, the things we've learned from doing these trips has helped us to frame what we do today.
Laurence:But like you said, I think there's a, there's an element of permission too.
Laurence:If you give permission to yourself, hopefully give permission to your partner or loved ones that actually, yeah, them sharing their needs out loud and getting support around that is, is important too.
Laurence:So, yeah, I think in some ways if you can't sell it to yourself, you're gonna struggle selling it to other people.
Laurence:So the first step is actually saying that I deserve this.
Laurence:And I, I think back to, do you remember Robert, the, um, Robert VAs Dutch guy?
Laurence:He's been over a few times, I think to Sally-Anne's as well.
Laurence:One of the things he said in the, uh, one of the first Alptitudes was, you know, this is the best gift I've ever given myself, which was such a lovely thing to hear.
Laurence:And that was just him actually saying, yeah, it was indulgent.
Laurence:It was an investment of time and money.
Laurence:But that feeling of actually, I deserve this and I therefore feel better about myself and hopefully go back a better person as a result of being part of that experience.
Carlos:Actually, Arno, in answers to your question, Francis was saying that, uh, she's, she's taken the initiative and, and, and you know, she's booked into Alptitude and Summercamp.
Carlos:And her partner doesn't need to do those same things.
Carlos:So in a similar way, maybe we're all different and we take time out and we take space in different ways, but without articulating the, I need this, this is how I'm gonna address this need to, for adventure space or just time, how do you do, how, how does, how do you all want to do it?
Carlos:What is it you want to do?
Carlos:And then you do that.
Carlos:You do you I do me.
Carlos:And maybe we're all happy.
Carlos:So that's a another perspective it sounds like around this isn't, it's, we we're all different, how we tackle these things.
Carlos:Before we leave, it would be good to, for each of you just to share a little bit more about your work and how people can get to, you know, find out more about you and, and maybe even just whether work with you more closely.
Carlos:So, um, uh, Sally Ann, what would you like to, where would you like to point people and what would you like to tell them about your work and how you could help them?
Sally-Anne:So, I, the where, where I work now guys is in, um, supporting anyone who calls themselves a leader.
Sally-Anne:And when I say leader, I think leader.
Sally-Anne:I think about it very, very broadly indeed.
Sally-Anne:I think as a human being, you know, and how we show up in the world, we're, we're in some way influencing others.
Sally-Anne:So, you know, it's that kind of breadth of definition of leadership.
Sally-Anne:But anyone who, um, for whatever reason wants to explore more deeply how what they do is aligned with who they are.
Sally-Anne:So, you know, a sense of.
Sally-Anne:of being able to fully step into the work because it feels wholly aligned with, um, perhaps a deeper understanding of, of who you are and what your purpose is in the world.
Sally-Anne:So I tend to work at a fairly deep level with people now.
Sally-Anne:And, uh, where I do this mostly, uh, these days is, uh, on a leadership program that is in its fourth year.
Sally-Anne:I call it Evolving Leadership.
Sally-Anne:It's for a group of just eight people.
Sally-Anne:Um, I try to make it as, as diverse as a curator group, which is as diverse as possible so that we all learn from each other as much as possible over a nine month journey, which is a combination of online and two retreats here.
Sally-Anne:So that's my main work.
Sally-Anne:And I do also do quite a lot of other one-to-one work with people, mainly one-to-one these days, occasionally with groups and teams, but my focus these days is more one-to-one.
Sally-Anne:So if that kind of thing sounds interesting, um, then, you know, please reach out.
Sally-Anne:I think I noticed, uh, Laurence, thank you, you shared my Skillful leaders, um, website, uh, earlier in the feed.
Sally-Anne:Um, that's the best way to reach me or via these guys or on LinkedIn or any of the, the main social platforms.
Sally-Anne:Um, please don't hesitate to reach out and have a chat and see if, um, you know, if I can help in some way if it feels like that's what you'd like to do.
Carlos:Uh, and Arno, where would you, how would you, how would you like to help people out there and where can we point them?
Arno:So I've got a, since six years, got a diploma as a mountain leader, a computer mountaineer, which means I can take people around in the mountains on snowshoes, uh, walking boots and mountain bike.
Arno:Um, so I take people on half days in the mountains, on full days in the mountains, and as long as, soon as it's multiple days, I use my company Alp Adventures.
Arno:And again, since I've got that diploma, most Albert Venture trips, I lead and guide myself, uh, sometimes, uh, supported by some colleagues.
Arno:And I really believe in the, in the, in the magic of at least one night in a mountain.
Arno:So every Albert Venture strip I try to persuade the gas to spend at least one night somewhere in the mountains.
Arno:Can be a mountain huts, can be an igloo, can be, uh, a hammock into the trees, uh, all kind of things.
Arno:Um, so, uh, yeah, I think if you wanna know a bit more about what I'm doing, uh, and also the trip we've been talking about last, um, three days we've been doing check our, uh, Instagram, Alp Adventures Instagram account .And, um, hopefully we can inspire you to leave your comfort zone for a nice moment into the wild Alps.
Carlos:Well, I'm now itching to go to the mountains.
Carlos:Thank you very much, all of you for just reminding, uh, me of what, what it's like to be there and also to see your lovely faces looking forward.
Laurence:Yeah.
Laurence:Good to catch up.
Sally-Anne:Yeah, really nice.
Arno:It's about time to see each other back, isn't it?
Laurence:I know.
Laurence:Can't wait to go to that mountain of hot and eat lots of cheese and wine.
Arno:Yeah.
