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Episode 114

Create space to listen to yourself

How do we have to be to create a new world that sidesteps the mistakes of the old?What do we need to learn about relating differently and more compassionately with ourselves, and others, in order to create a different social and cultural reality?And what does a new world business designed to help people practise this look and feel like, and how do we learn to lead such a thing?

Gaylene creates space for the new, the imaginative and the transformative. Through The Space to Come she and her team create experiences that sensitively centre art, conversation, feeling and care.

From interactive events and live installations to leadership programmes, our spaces help you better connect to yourselves and each other and prepare for an emerging, more compassionate world.

Links

Transcript
Gaylene:

So when I was five, I've got two older brothers, like four and five years older than me in anyone who has older brothers will understand what it's like to grow up with really annoying people who think they're really funny and like to tease you a lot.

Gaylene:

So anyway, I was watching this natural history program with both of them.

Gaylene:

And it must have been, uh, David Attenborough.

Gaylene:

'cause he was still doing that then.

Gaylene:

He was like, so lions unlike human beings, ya da da da da.

Gaylene:

So I was cur, I didn't know what it was talking about because I didn't know what a human being was.

Gaylene:

So I said to my brothers, you, what's a human being?

Gaylene:

And they of course thought this was hilarious and like completely, oh, you dunno what a human being is.

Gaylene:

And they were like, we're all human beings.

Gaylene:

I'm a human being.

Gaylene:

A brother's, a human being.

Gaylene:

You are a human being.

Gaylene:

And I burst into tears.

Gaylene:

I was a very emotional child.

Gaylene:

So my mom was like, what have you done to her?

Gaylene:

What's wrong?

Gaylene:

And I was like, they said, I'm a human being, but I'm not a human being.

Gaylene:

I'm a Gaylene.

Gaylene:

Um, so I always kind of think when someone say, well, what are, what do you, I'm like, I'm a Gaylene.

Gaylene:

I don't know.

Gaylene:

I just do, just do me sort of thing.

Gaylene:

So, which kind of is a bit like, I think at five I probably got something then, which was, I was just very interested in exploring who I, who I was and who I am.

Gaylene:

And the idea that I was like anybody else was like a crazy sounding, it was like, um, sort of a very specific, unique individual.

Gaylene:

So that has led me down some really interesting paths, is always led me to art and culture.

Gaylene:

And I think because art and culture helps me explore that question, alongside looking at my Pearse, my human Pearse, I guess.

Gaylene:

So I've worked as a curator and a programmer, which means in different ways.

Gaylene:

I've select, um, a programmed artistic spaces, so lots of arts venues, multi art venues, working from performance through to for many years in film.

Gaylene:

I was very interested in the intersection between where art meets the audience.

Gaylene:

What's that moment of feeling?

Gaylene:

I was less interested in how it's made and more interested in how it's received and what it does to us when we receive it.

Gaylene:

So I spent many years doing that.

Gaylene:

I've also been a broadcaster, cultural broadcaster and still do a fair bit of that.

Gaylene:

So, um, reviewing, uh, reflecting on work, uh, and I make work myself as an artist.

Gaylene:

And that has been from, uh, writing, so I do quite a lot of fiction writing, but also through sort of performances, performance based stuff.

Gaylene:

And then about 15 years ago, I retrained as a coach because what I realized was this idea of stories and storytelling, again, going back to the self, I was much more interested in the stories that we tell about ourselves and giving space to that.

Gaylene:

Uh, and then that led down another path.

Gaylene:

So I sort of was one of the founding, um, facilitators for the School of Life and I was there for 10 years.

Gaylene:

And again, always very interested in these, um, for, what a word, democratized spaces.

Gaylene:

Like how do you just share this information in a really interesting way?

Gaylene:

How do you engage in these conversations, and make them as accessible as possible?

Gaylene:

I grew up on a council of state in a city called Leicester, which is a very industrial city.

Gaylene:

Nobody, everyone was expected to go and work in factories.

Gaylene:

Somehow.

Gaylene:

I took this weird path, but it always means that I'm always thinking about the people that I grew up with.

Gaylene:

Like, how, how does they, you know, what are they feeling?

Gaylene:

How, what they're, what's their perspective of this?

Gaylene:

So I'm always trying to think about how to bring this into interesting spaces.

Gaylene:

So now where I am, um, two years ago during lockdown, I set up a company called The Space to Come, not knowing what it was gonna be, but knowing that these two things that I felt had transformative potential, the coaching and the facilitation and the curation and the kind of artistic journeying that you can take, what would it be like to bring both of those two things together?

Carlos:

So a pretty boring life then.

Carlos:

Mm hmm.

Carlos:

Pretty standard.

Carlos:

Standard

Gaylene:

G Fair.

Gaylene:

I dunno.

Gaylene:

It might be, I dunno.

Gaylene:

I just, what I'm doing, I'm gonna,

Carlos:

So there's a lot of threads that we can pull on here.

Carlos:

One that, that sprang to mind because you say, you know, you, you have your own creative practice, you like to do your own art.

Carlos:

Um, we are, I would say, we've evolved.

Carlos:

Well, personally, my understanding of the work that we do at the Happy, Startup School has evolved from purely kind of like following a methodological approach to building a business in a, uh, an environment of extreme uncertainty and trying to test and experiment in order to move forward, to also what is it that you wanna create> and where does that inspiration come from?

Gaylene:

Mm.

Carlos:

and so I'd be curious to hear, given your creative proclivities or, you know, energies, what, what is your inspiration?

Carlos:

How do you, what inspires you to create?

Gaylene:

I think it's changed throughout my life for sure.

Gaylene:

And I think that now the reason why I came up with this name, the Space to Come is because 2016 was quite, for me, a seismic year.

Gaylene:

And effectively because it was the moment where the bubble that I've lived in that I just assumed was enjoyed by lots of people, I realized wasn't.

Gaylene:

And part of that was the Brexit, um, referendum, which was genuinely a moment of waking up and realizing that actually the way that I saw the world wasn't at all the majority.

Gaylene:

And so it was really good in a sense of going, okay, what's actually going on?

Gaylene:

And then it got me to start thinking a little bit about the world in which I wanted to exist in.

Gaylene:

The world.

Gaylene:

That was the world I wanted to exist in.

Gaylene:

And it felt like there was a, a choice either that I, which I was, I was part of, I call the old world, right?

Gaylene:

I was part, I was working at the British Film Institute, then I was, you know, I was part of, in these old institutions that had been there for years and trying to kind of reform and shift and change them.

Gaylene:

And I just was, I quit everything a few years after that and said, no, I actually just wanna create from ground zero.

Gaylene:

What kind of environment might create a wholly different experience and a wholly different relational society?

Gaylene:

You know, big, big questions.

Gaylene:

And that led me to, I've always had a love of science fiction, but I've gotten deeper into that.

Gaylene:

I've gotten deeper into speculative fiction.

Gaylene:

I've got deeper into imagining what worlds could look like, you know?

Gaylene:

So I think a lot of my ideas are centering around that.

Gaylene:

It's where my inspiration is coming from, but that's also the kind of art that I'm making is around that question, exploring that question.

Gaylene:

So, and I, a suggestion that the one that at the moment is talk about emerging is forcing itself into existence is a character that I've been obsessed with for years.

Gaylene:

It's a legend, it's a fable.

Gaylene:

We dunno if she really existed.

Gaylene:

I think she did, but, called Black Mary who ran a healing well in 17th century.

Gaylene:

London.

Gaylene:

The part of London that she worked, she ran that healing well was natural spa.

Gaylene:

So Clark and well Sadler's Wells, all of those wells were healing wells.

Gaylene:

They had this rich healing water and people would come out and they would take the waters and they would go back home.

Gaylene:

And somehow in the middle of all of it's a black woman, no one that.

Gaylene:

Mary Williston, she's running this as a business.

Gaylene:

And it's also a space where the kind of the outsiders lived.

Gaylene:

It was the radicals lived there, the outsiders lived there.

Gaylene:

So I've been obsessed by this character.

Gaylene:

And so she's emerging swiftly this year.

Gaylene:

Um, and we're basically doing a kind of major project around her next year, where we are going to recreate a 21st Century healing Center for London using, based on the same land that she wants lived.

Gaylene:

So this idea of this character that is, In the 17th century, but she's somehow still in the 21st century and she might be beyond them, what would she look like now is what's driving the heart of that project.

Gaylene:

and we're working with a fantastic community gardens called Calthorpe.

Gaylene:

That in and of itself is a healing center, um, looking after Afghani recently arrived refugees, isolated Bangladeshi women, elder Latin American community, and they all use this garden for their own, for their own healing and nurturing, and we're working with them to reimagine this space, stuff like that, really.

Carlos:

Wow.

Laurence:

Amazing.

Laurence:

So no wonder you find it hard to say, what do you do with someone else?

Gaylene:

Exactly.

Gaylene:

Laurence.

Gaylene:

Exactly.

Gaylene:

It's like, I'm a Gaylene, I don't know.

Gaylene:

It's these things.

Gaylene:

So yeah, part of it is a lot of the things that we do haven't been done in the way that we are doing them before.

Gaylene:

So it's quite hard to say it's like this or it's like that.

Gaylene:

It's like, actually we.

Gaylene:

The aim is to try something new, which is hard.

Carlos:

You mentioned before your interest of where art meets the audience, and I'm relating it to what you just said.

Carlos:

Is this like where the creativity inspire or is it part of the impact or creates the impact.

Gaylene:

Mm.

Carlos:

And so it, so there's this story that, uh, of this character that feels, sounds inspirational, connected to healing.

Carlos:

There's a whole creative piece around this, quite inspirational, but then also you were grounding it, it sounded like in something practical that can be done now.

Gaylene:

That's right.

Gaylene:

That's right.

Carlos:

And that, that sounds like what it means to be Gaylene?

Gaylene:

Yes.

Gaylene:

And I wish you would write that down and put it on my website, because it's very hard to capture the process, right?

Gaylene:

Because it is a process.

Gaylene:

I think it's very much about the outcome.

Gaylene:

Who knows what the Black Mary, uh, the Libation Festival, the Black Mary Festival look like.

Gaylene:

We are gonna do a permanent healing garden and memorial.

Gaylene:

What would that look like?

Gaylene:

We don't know.

Gaylene:

But the process to getting there is, is the thing that we are really fascinated by.

Gaylene:

Because the process allows people to engage with themselves in a new way.

Gaylene:

That's, that's the thing that we are really wanting to do.

Gaylene:

Like how can we create spaces that people can engage, have spaces of reflection, and connect themselves in a new way, and therefore create something new.

Gaylene:

We don't even care what that, what it is, but something new is gonna be created.

Gaylene:

So, we do a lot and there's just myself and there's the amazing Zainab who is alongside working with me, she's also training to be a psychotherapist and a lot of our interest in these intimate spaces of conversation, healing and form how we structure these experiences.

Carlos:

I was curious about, you were talking about not knowing where it's gonna lead, this is how it came across.

Carlos:

Not knowing where some of this stuff leads, but, uh, following this creative process.

Carlos:

Um, on one hand it, it fills me with anxiety, 'cause like, what, what's gonna happen?

Carlos:

What's going to do?

Carlos:

So like a lot of uncertainty, but married to that is a lot of possibility.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

And again, relating to the kind of journeys that we are taking people on in our communities and our programs and our events.

Carlos:

This, trusting the creative approach.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

Where you don't necessarily know the answer from the beginning, but it emerges through interaction and through action.

Carlos:

I was wondering how you could relate that to, yeah, the work and maybe talking a bit more about some of the projects that you've had, uh, you've done, um, to hopefully inspire or just, uh, give some thoughts and ideas to people listening.

Gaylene:

It, it, it's, um, yeah, when I said it's hard, it's kind of what I'm referring to, I guess.

Gaylene:

I think it's, it's important to position the space to come as an artist-led company that helps because, The things about artists that interest me particularly, it's not necessarily always what they produce, but it's the how that they go about the process of exploring something.

Gaylene:

So often artists are led by process, so they have to keep doing something.

Gaylene:

And out of, once they keep doing it, something will emerge.

Gaylene:

You know, something will shape and emerge.

Gaylene:

And then once something, they step back from it, they look at them like, that's interesting.

Gaylene:

Let's try, go it this way, tweak it this way.

Gaylene:

Um, and there's a refining, it's a constant process of refining, right?

Gaylene:

Now in business that's really hard because when I left the BFI, I was, I had a big job.

Gaylene:

I was running the BFI South Bank.

Gaylene:

It was one of those jobs that people never leave.

Gaylene:

Um, I did.

Gaylene:

And people were like, so what are you gonna do?

Gaylene:

And I was like, I have no idea how to answer that question.

Gaylene:

And even now, I don't, it is hard to answer that question because it will emerge out of the process.

Gaylene:

Like right now we are doing this and then whatever emerges, we have a sort of idea of certain things that we'd like, for example, from the Black Mary project, but we don't actually know what will happen.

Gaylene:

Um, so it feels that the things that maybe I could learn from the artistic process is, is iteration and reflection, you know, and I'm, and I'm, and this is why I'm so happy to meet you guys and your community.

Gaylene:

'cause I dunno how to do this in business.

Gaylene:

I'm, I'm struggling with how do you build a business plan when you are like, I'm gonna do something for like three months and then I'm gonna see what it's like and I'm gonna do something for three months again and what it like, oh,

Carlos:

I was hoping you're gonna tell us.

Gaylene:

Oh man.

Gaylene:

So I really, I'm not the expert on this.

Gaylene:

Um, so, okay.

Gaylene:

How do you feel?

Gaylene:

It's a really, really good example of this.

Gaylene:

When I left the BFI, because I think cultural broadcasting, and this is, this is exactly, it gives you an insight into my life.

Gaylene:

Uh, uh, a production company, um, company, Reduced Listening, who I've worked with before.

Gaylene:

We're like, look, we're pitching something into the BBC to do a half hour arts program, have you got any ideas?

Gaylene:

I was like, yeah.

Gaylene:

Literally off the top of my head, I was like, yeah, sort of.

Gaylene:

I've been thinking about how after being in culture for so many years, I don't get the same feeling as I once did when I'm amongst work and I dunno what's happening, I'd quite like to explore that.

Gaylene:

They're like, okay, we'll put that in.

Gaylene:

So they put it in and it comes back and they go, oh, they really like it.

Gaylene:

Can you work it up?

Gaylene:

And I'm like, okay, damn, I have to think about it a bit more now.

Gaylene:

So then think about it a bit more then that like one line becomes a paragraph.

Gaylene:

And then they put the paragraph in and they're like, okay, we've got the commission.

Gaylene:

So now we're like, okay, now we really have to go deep and think about what that question, how I wanna explore that question.

Gaylene:

So it ended up being me going on this journey, starting with my mom in the, my mom's living room, and talking about what it was like to be eight and watch films and listen to music and how it felt, how exciting it felt, and then cut to, you know, 40 years later and you're like, uh, um, what's happened in between?

Gaylene:

And then we led us to a neuroscientist who spoke about, uh, interception and what happens when actually is going on in your body, in your brain when you are experiencing something to an artist.

Gaylene:

Mark Ey, who spoke about magic, art and magic, uh, to curator Zoe Whitley to a historian.

Gaylene:

And then it led me to just post the pandemic, standing in the tape in front of an artwork and getting chills, you know?

Gaylene:

So that was the piece.

Gaylene:

The, and it's still on b BBC sounds, it's called Transcendence.

Gaylene:

How can I Feel Art Again?

Gaylene:

After doing that, I was like, oh, I'd love to do this as a human test.

Gaylene:

I'd love to do some human experiments where I bring people together to test this, you know?

Gaylene:

So then the Arnold Feeney and um, gallery in Bristol got in touch.

Gaylene:

We're like, we listened to your documentary.

Gaylene:

Do you wanna come and do something with us to test this?

Gaylene:

I was like, I was just thinking that.

Gaylene:

So then we go and we do these amazing series of tests that become something called How Do You Feel?

Gaylene:

Where we essentially create these like mindful viewing experiences where we slow down the act of viewing a piece of work, and then through a series of prompts we get people to test how their body's reacting in the moment, what memories are being triggered, where their imagination is going.

Gaylene:

Um, and it's sort of based on a phenomenology that I found going through.

Gaylene:

So, So, and now this is a program we offer.

Gaylene:

So now we've done this, um, in Glasgow, the Tramway.

Gaylene:

We've just done, How Do You Feel Cinema, the British Film Institute.

Gaylene:

Um, we're doing something with the Royal Academy coming up next year, but I didn't know that when I did that, when the guy was like, come up with an idea, do you know what I mean?

Gaylene:

So I think that's, this is a really good example of how I would love for the rest of my life to work,

Laurence:

For about three or four years when we started, Carlos was like, where's the plan?

Laurence:

We need a plan.

Laurence:

We need a business plan.

Laurence:

What's going on?

Laurence:

I need to know what's going on.

Laurence:

Where are we going?

Laurence:

And I didn't have one.

Laurence:

I don't think we could have even created one.

Laurence:

And even if we did, it wouldn't have been, it wouldn't have been the right plan.

Laurence:

Um, so yeah, I'd definitely resonate with your story of, well, two words that I'd heard recently from our friend Lana, actually, funnily enough, there's a book called Emergent Strategy.

Laurence:

Yes.

Laurence:

Which gave, gave me into our approach and suddenly it was a thing rather than just winging it.

Laurence:

So, uh, it gave me reassurance that actually there is value in serendipity, ultimately.

Laurence:

I think from what you're talking about, it feels like you would never, if you didn't have these inquiries, maybe a little bit of passion, bit of luck, a bit of happenstance, whatever it is that leads you to the people and the projects that you have.

Gaylene:

Mm.

Laurence:

Um, I dunno how you could ever orchestrate that from the start without having those interactions.

Laurence:

So I think you can probably plan maybe a few months ahead, but anything beyond that is really fiction, I think.

Laurence:

Um.

Gaylene:

Is fiction.

Gaylene:

That's right.

Laurence:

Yeah.

Laurence:

And I've yet to meet a business person who had a plan A that worked.

Gaylene:

That's true.

Laurence:

So it can help with investors and banks and funding

Gaylene:

Yeah.

Laurence:

To reassure people that you're on the right path.

Laurence:

But for something as ethereal as this, I think it's impossible almost to to plan ahead, especially when the world's changing as well.

Gaylene:

So Laurence, you're just saying that, it's just made me think about, you know, when you said with banking and, and, and that's often what it is, isn't it?

Gaylene:

It's like investment.

Gaylene:

We want to reassure people, but actually, you know, given the last few days, given what we went through in 2008 with the financial crisis, it doesn't work there either.

Laurence:

No.

Gaylene:

To me

Laurence:

It's an illusion.

Laurence:

I think it's an illusion.

Laurence:

Certainty.

Gaylene:

Yeah.

Laurence:

Someone, um, on a retreat the other week, uh, talked about the consultants that come in and he called them the certainty merchants, which I've not heard before, which I love.

Laurence:

It's like you can pay for certainty and it probably costs a lot of money and these people will guarantee.

Laurence:

Well, I'll try to guarantee some outcome for you, but it might not be the right outcome.

Laurence:

Um,

Gaylene:

Yeah, that's so true.

Laurence:

And that's the thing is when you have a plan, I think sometimes you can follow the plan at the detriment of everything else.

Laurence:

Maybe your wellbeing, maybe the vision, or maybe just your interest in it.

Laurence:

And for me, yeah, whenever we tried to plan things, haven't gone to plan and that de-energize me.

Laurence:

And my senses maybe with you, maybe you would feel restricted by a plan.

Laurence:

I don't know.

Gaylene:

Yeah, I think I would.

Gaylene:

And also the thing that you mentioned, which I'm, I I really like and I'm really interested in is about where you said, about that connection and engagement because I think there's something about luck, which I've never been a, I dunno how I feel about the concept of luck apart from the fact that from when you are born, as in I have to be careful, I said it to a s a fascist, but I think I'm very lucky that I was born when I was in England, In the way that I was.

Gaylene:

Like, I had ops opportu access to opportunities that other people in other parts of the world at that time didn't.

Gaylene:

I also feel there's something about, which is I think what artists do?

Gaylene:

You, you, you, you put things out of yourself, you offer things and then you see, and then we see who connects.

Gaylene:

So there's something about when Arnold or Feeney came, it's because I'd offered something.

Gaylene:

Do you know what I mean?

Gaylene:

The documentary was an, was a, was an offering, which is that I'm feeling like this.

Gaylene:

Are you feeling like this?

Gaylene:

And then I'm always curious about, that's the bit I'm most interesting in.

Gaylene:

Like, who does this connect with?

Gaylene:

It's not gonna connect with everybody, but if it Connects with you, then come, let's talk.

Gaylene:

We can do something.

Gaylene:

So it might just be two of us in the whole world who in are interested, but that moment of connection is what I'm seeking, I guess.

Carlos:

Well in the right place for that.

Carlos:

Um, and that's, that's one of the, I think, the drivers of our work is that sense of connection, friendship, community, shared reality.

Carlos:

I like how you put that idea of, you know, you just offer something up to the world and then see who bites, who it resonates with.

Carlos:

And that's a vulnerable act.

Carlos:

That's a risky act, particularly from my perspective if it's something that's born of something you really care about and love and, and it's your baby for want of a better term.

Carlos:

Uh, and then doing that within a world and a system that has a different set of stories about what it means to be productive and to create value.

Carlos:

And like Laurence was saying, the need for certainty.

Carlos:

I was curious about what Neil said in his comment previously.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

A lot of business people are focused on outcomes, uh, and there's a good way to sell programs and events, you know, to define the outcome.

Carlos:

It's harder, it's a harder sell using a holistic approach with potentially no answers at the end, but could very well be much more valuable.

Gaylene:

Mm.

Carlos:

And I think that's where my understanding of Laurence's thing about the plan is, I think, you know, planning is useful as long as it isn't become, doesn't become the, the, the cage within which you are constrained.

Carlos:

Plans provide a bit of direction and guidance and guidelines, but, um, to follow something blindly or to expect an outcome a hundred percent yeah.

Carlos:

Can be challenging if, if it doesn't come about.

Carlos:

And, you know, I think what I'm hearing from both of you is that that whole process, that journey could lead you to somewhere much more valuable than what you thought at the beginning.

Gaylene:

Yeah, that's right.

Laurence:

When you were telling the story about you as a child, five year old, there's, there's a, like a, almost an inner belief or faith or confidence, we'll call it what you will, but that I'm different and I don't know, you must have some still to have faith in that emergent path because I think that's what my understanding is.

Laurence:

When people feel like they need a plan, it's because they're not sure that this is the right, the uncertain path isn't the right path.

Laurence:

So let's go down one that gives more certainty.

Gaylene:

Right?

Gaylene:

Right.

Laurence:

Rather than just feeling there's something here, I just feel there's something here.

Laurence:

Something's right.

Gaylene:

Y yes.

Gaylene:

And the feeling, I think is the, is the key word in that sentence, um, for sure.

Gaylene:

And I think it's a thing that I'm most interested in.

Gaylene:

I'm most interested in how do you stay connected to your feelings in any given moment?

Gaylene:

And, and your dis your, your decisions come out of that space?

Gaylene:

Do you know what I mean?

Gaylene:

And it's interesting, I'm not smiling at that Nicola saying, as a traditional non planner, I'm loving this conversation.

Gaylene:

Nicola, listen.

Gaylene:

Lemme just tell you, you can't, you know, and I was having this funny conversation, Carlos, before, which is, I, I have two sides of many sides, but there's two clear sides.

Gaylene:

And I had this fantastic as ever.

Gaylene:

I have a brilliant therapist.

Gaylene:

And she helped me reach this place of integration between the two sides.

Gaylene:

And I have a very directive side.

Gaylene:

I have a very efficient producer, you know, who knows?

Gaylene:

I'm a Virgo.

Gaylene:

Like, I like a spreadsheet, I like a timeline.

Gaylene:

I like this, right?

Gaylene:

Carlos, you're feeling me, right?

Gaylene:

So I, I can keep, I'm, I can be obsessed about keeping things on the track.

Gaylene:

But then I have this very.

Gaylene:

You know, emergent timorous, vulnerable side that is interested in really staying close to an idea or a feeling.

Gaylene:

And my whole life, literally until last Monday, these two sides of thought.

Gaylene:

Thought so much that I would even change careers.

Gaylene:

So I'd have a long time, you know, I'd go to a structured job and I'd go, no, this is who I am.

Gaylene:

I'm structured.

Gaylene:

And then I would leave after two years.

Gaylene:

'cause my artist is like, no, I need to breed.

Gaylene:

And then I would go over here.

Gaylene:

And then I'd be like, I need structure.

Gaylene:

So I've been pinging ponging between these two sides my whole life.

Gaylene:

And I think the session that my therapist did, which is basically to have these two sides sit down and have a really good conversation and to come to a point of cooperation was like revolutionary.

Gaylene:

And because the producer is very important.

Gaylene:

Like that planning, that strategy, that sense of knowing how to get things done is really important, otherwise, this side will, uh, literally will do nothing, quite happily do nothing.

Gaylene:

And, um, together there is something very powerful that can happen.

Gaylene:

So allowing the emergent side to kind of lead the process and the idea, and then use this side to create the structure.

Gaylene:

So, sorry Nicola, you do sort of need a little bit of planning at times, you know?

Gaylene:

Um, yeah, I think that's the, that's the, that's the bit I'm beginning to understand.

Gaylene:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Uh, when I think of the word creativity or even just create, um, I understand it more and more as a balance between those two things.

Carlos:

There's the inspiration and as the action.

Carlos:

And also if it's gonna be something of significance, there's coherent action.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

And that's where I start thinking about structure and planning.

Carlos:

Because if you're on your own miming on, you know, just jazz hands, that's fine.

Carlos:

You can go with the flow.

Carlos:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

If you're gonna do that with other people, yes, you are gonna have to try and have some coordination and some coherence and some direction where you're actually complimenting each other's, um, energies.

Carlos:

There is a degree of either you are solely in so in sync because you've worked together for so long that you just, you can freestyle or you have to have some kind of way of coordinating and, and moving in the same direction.

Carlos:

And so I, identify very much with your story there, Gaylene, in terms of like, I take pride in being able to think clearly, think strategically, see structure.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

But also being more aware and in touch and, um, actually listening more to the other side, which is, you know, feeling into what's next and allowing that to be okay.

Gaylene:

Yes, yes.

Gaylene:

It's Interesting.

Gaylene:

I went to, um, an amazing event yesterday, welcoming Kane Sheila, who's the South African, uh, who's a new, um, curator for the Liverpool, um, biennial, but also happens to be an artist under Sanoma.

Gaylene:

So she's South African and she's a South African spiritualist, effectively.

Gaylene:

And she spoke to that yesterday where she opened in Hosa.

Gaylene:

She welcomed her ancestors in, this is a very kind of officious, you know, kind of event.

Gaylene:

And then spoke about the fact that when she took the role, she said to everyone, they have to, they have to embrace all of her, not just this one side, not just the curator.

Gaylene:

She is also a mother, she's also a er, she's also do these things.

Gaylene:

And I think that that is the, I mean, I have a political version of why we don't do this, which is, you know, to do with that moment of the enlightenment and splitting off and the way in which European, uh, powers use that as a way to control us individuals and also the world.

Gaylene:

And so this idea of splitting people off on their feeling sides becomes very useful.

Gaylene:

It's a great way to control, people can tell people what to do.

Gaylene:

You can shame them.

Gaylene:

If they're not doing what they're supposed to do, and they will do it.

Gaylene:

But teaching people that, actually the most important thing is whatever you're told, is to really pay attention to how that lands and then shift from that place is, you know, is, is radical, is radical.

Gaylene:

It means that the, the political structures that we're in couldn't exist in the same way.

Carlos:

it makes me think a lot around the different ways or make it simple, east West split of the way we view the world, and the stories that we tell ourselves about how the world works and how that influences how we act and, and what we do.

Carlos:

I think it's, um, Charles Eisenstein had this whole idea of symptoms, systems and stories.

Carlos:

And so the effects that happen that we experience in the world, whether there's that inequality or te you know, social tension, they're built on a system.

Carlos:

Uh, whether there's that system of capitalism or, uh, a system of, uh, an geography and how we separate ourselves in terms of nationality and how that's then built on stories, and what these stories may be.

Carlos:

And so when you're talking about this age of enlightenment where we are separate from our bodies, our brains and our bodies are different things, and us as people are here to control the world as opposed to be integrated, that then that story then has its implications that run off to different things that happened that might not be helpful.

Carlos:

And so I'm curious because there, you know, the whole thing of certainty, the need for a stable system of value exchange, which is the money system that we have, or the, the communities we live in, or even just this whole definition of, uh, successes, uh, 2.4 children, a house, a partner, you know, a pension plan, that's based on a set of stories of what a successful life is.

Carlos:

So I'd be curious to hear what stories influenced your life decisions and how they've shifted or changed, or evolved, or stayed the same.

Gaylene:

Hmm.

Gaylene:

Brilliant question.

Gaylene:

And, and I think I, I, you know, I, I didn't know that system that you've just laid out and I'm like, a hundred percent co-sign.

Gaylene:

You know, I think there's the, the power of the narrative.

Gaylene:

I guess this is why culture interests me, right?

Gaylene:

Like this is what the.

Gaylene:

Culture is, where those Uber narratives are, uh, that's the engine of promoting them, you know?

Gaylene:

Um, and so analyzing those narratives and unpicking them has been part of, is probably why I've been interested in doing that.

Gaylene:

And I've been really influenced by all of them.

Gaylene:

I've been influenced by all of the major narratives, you know.

Gaylene:

I, I, I think, and I've, as a consequence, I've battled with myself most of my life.

Gaylene:

So, you know, I told you where I grew up, the narrative was that you're supposed to leave school at 16, go work at the Overlocking factory and live down, get a council house three doors down from your mom.

Gaylene:

I was like, I ain't never gonna do that.

Gaylene:

But then I, I couldn't tell anyone that, you know, I would just pretend.

Gaylene:

And then, but really I had another whole nother thing going.

Gaylene:

So I've always had these secret sides because I felt shame that I didn't feel, I didn't cosign with that narrative.

Gaylene:

I think it's quite interesting that the age that I am, I've never been married and I actually think because if I'm really honest, the idea of being a wife was like the traditional, you know, story about being a wife, and of course that's the traditional, always felt like a horror to me.

Gaylene:

What am I gonna stay inside for?

Gaylene:

You know, what?

Gaylene:

Clean and cook?

Gaylene:

You know?

Gaylene:

So there's all these things now that I could be a bit more honest about and go, actually, that story never grabbed me enough for me to want to go and explore it.

Gaylene:

And then I think about the stories that I was drawn towards, you know, the iconoclasts, the people who did, uh, I think give me one of my favorite books is The Portrait is James Joyce's Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man, and, because the story is of this character who's brought in island, you know, uh, strict religion, bucking all of it, to get to a place to say, if it means I walk this planet alone, I will walk it alone, but I cannot co-sign to these things.

Gaylene:

And it takes such courage to go against a dominant narrative.

Gaylene:

It really does.

Gaylene:

It's really, really hard.

Gaylene:

But I think what's helped me is being also a black girl, growing up as a black girl in a white working class estate, because those narratives excluded me anyway, so I didn't have a choice to join them.

Gaylene:

And there's a lot of people like me, I think there's a lot of people of color who have walked their own path, not because they're really brave or courageous, but because they didn't really have a choice to join that other one.

Gaylene:

So, you know, you get used very young to walking your own path.

Gaylene:

So the things that may scare other people, other adults, I think we have, um, we, we've dealt with that fear when we were eight, nine years old.

Gaylene:

'cause we were forced to.

Gaylene:

So, you know, it's not out of, it's not come from a space of courage.

Gaylene:

It's come from a, a space of necessity, I guess.

Carlos:

Conditioning.

Gaylene:

Conditioning.

Gaylene:

But you do see those narratives, I think from young.

Gaylene:

I saw them.

Gaylene:

I was like, oh, that's the story you're telling yourself.

Gaylene:

Okay, that's interesting.

Gaylene:

I can't join that story.

Gaylene:

So what story am I gonna create?

Carlos:

I love that framing.

Carlos:

Uh, it resonates a lot for me, uh, to be honest.

Carlos:

You kind of creating your own narratives is just second nature because the narratives that were presented to you just didn't fit.

Gaylene:

Didn't fit.

Carlos:

And so rather than feeling like, oh, this is how I should be.

Carlos:

It's like, actually I have to make it up because I know there is, there's nothing there.

Carlos:

There's nothing that I can strongly identify with.

Carlos:

And the, the story for me is very much a u, coming to the UK when I was three, really kind of surrounded by a whole different culture.

Carlos:

Not fully identifying with it, but trying to get on with it.

Carlos:

But for some reason, like, yeah, I, I understand that's funny and I like this and I like that, but not quite clicking, um, then having to just, all right, what is my path?

Carlos:

Because it isn't quite that path and it isn't quite that path.

Carlos:

So I kind of have to make it up as I go along.

Carlos:

And then there's the stories that parents give you about what's a successful person, you know, go down the finance career or, my mom said you should be an engineer or be a doctor.

Carlos:

I was like, no.

Carlos:

I could have followed that, but it just didn't feel, feel right.

Carlos:

I couldn't have articulated it in the same way now.

Carlos:

I said, oh, I didn't feel, I just, like, I, no, I'm, it was more like a belligerent, no, I'm not gonna do what you're telling me.

Carlos:

But that even I found isn't particularly helpful either.

Carlos:

Not coming from a place of unawareness.

Gaylene:

Yes.

Carlos:

She's being stubborn.

Carlos:

No, I'm not gonna do it.

Carlos:

'cause you're telling me to do it.

Gaylene:

Yes.

Laurence:

Mm-hmm.

Gaylene:

\Oh, yes, yes.

Gaylene:

And I think, I think part of my unlearning is my lack of trust.

Gaylene:

You know, I grew up, I think, not quite trusting the things that people were telling me, which sometimes you can trust them.

Gaylene:

Sometimes it's fine.

Gaylene:

Do you know what I mean?

Gaylene:

So there's something about me having to understand that some things are okay to go along with.

Gaylene:

Some things are fine, you know?

Gaylene:

So, yeah, I, I, I feel, I, I feel that background Carlos, for sure.

Gaylene:

And I, and I think it, it does wire you in a particular way.

Gaylene:

And I think in terms of the spaces that we are in now, the space that you've created, which makes kind of sense why you created it, it's brilliant, right?

Gaylene:

Like there, like you're saying, there's lots of us in this space, but I think there are other spaces where it's, we probably gather for a reason.

Gaylene:

Do you know what I mean?

Laurence:

Mm-hmm.

Gaylene:

And I also think, you know, irrespective of our cultural backgrounds, I would say this experience is fundamentally human.

Gaylene:

You know, going back to the, I am a Gaylene, I am a Carlos, I am a Laurence.

Gaylene:

We are unique individual, weird mix of very specific things and taking the time to understand our specificity has got to be the starting place.

Gaylene:

I think

Carlos:

it reminds me actually of a post I saw this morning about a friend, uh, from this other community, Like Hearted Leaders, Cyrus Johnson, who's talking, he was talking about his son doing GCSEs and how he found it, massive struggle, and actually his teachers persisted with him and he, you know, finally got through it and he sent a letter.

Carlos:

There's a couple letters of thanks to the teachers who really kind of like persisted.

Carlos:

But I share that story because it, school for me is, is one of those examples where we all supposed to be the same, will follow the same path where some can't or won't or feel unseen or unsupported by those systems.

Gaylene:

Yes.

Carlos:

And that that then prop essentially being replicated in the world of work and then also spreading out into societies like the need for unity or homogeneity as opposed to valuing our differences, but also through our differences, we find our similarities, which comes down to, I think what you are doing in your work is this, the human, deeper human bits of our connection as opposed to this superficial, whether how we look or what we do, or how clever we are, or what our proclivities are, but fundamentally, deep down there's, there's something that we're all connected to or with.

Gaylene:

You know, if I could live six lifetimes simultaneously, one of them would be reforming education for sure.

Gaylene:

Because this is where it begins.

Gaylene:

This is where the shame begins.

Gaylene:

I had a friend's kid who went to a very good school, he's eight or nine, love this kid.

Gaylene:

And he would kept getting told off, 'cause he kept doing handstands in the middle of the math class.

Gaylene:

It's like he's eight.

Gaylene:

So of course you wanna do a handstand, you don't wanna sit and do maths.

Gaylene:

Like, it's insane for me.

Gaylene:

So for sure there's a, that's where it begins, I think.

Gaylene:

And I think, yeah, I think this thing around specificity, it took me when you said that, I was thinking of one of the, How Do You Feel experiences that we did and, and you would, what I loved about these is it's very self-selecting.

Gaylene:

The people who come often are the people who need that space.

Gaylene:

And, and it's surprising what they look like.

Gaylene:

You would never think this group of people had anything in common age, ages, you know, diversity in all kinds of senses.

Gaylene:

And then when you ask them these very specific questions about how this made them feel or what, the stories, the very specific stories that they brought out is the thing that had us all, we all started as strangers and it was a photo of us all like hobbled together, like around the campfire.

Gaylene:

Because what we want is specificity.

Gaylene:

We want to hear that uniqueness.

Gaylene:

We, we don't want the big grand narrative.

Gaylene:

We want someone to say, I, as somebody did when I saw that, had this image of me being six and running my hands under the cold tap and the hot tap, and I can't remember, but that memory's just come back.

Gaylene:

You know, these very things we're like, what?

Gaylene:

You know, we wanna hear someone's soul, right?

Gaylene:

We wanna, that's why we watch films and watch art and do those things.

Gaylene:

We wanna hear the tr someone's deep truth or something.

Gaylene:

So that is a thing that binds us, I think.

Carlos:

And I think that's, uh, I feel is part of the, the work that connects us is the, to hear those stories for someone to feel comfortable to share what might seem just a random story or they might not, might seem important to them, but might be inconsequential to others, and so they don't share it, is that to feel that they're in a place that people want to hear those stories.

Carlos:

And I was having a conversation earlier today with someone around you don't necessarily feel comfortable to share those stories with people unless you know that they're, the person you're telling us is aware enough about their own stories.

Gaylene:

There you go.

Gaylene:

A thousand times.

Carlos:

So when, when we're able to connect with ourselves more, we are then able to connect with others more deeply.

Carlos:

Is, is how I'm understanding this.

Carlos:

And so this interface between art and the audience, in this case, what I'm hearing is like creating these spaces where, We can feel into ourselves more so that then we can feel into others.

Carlos:

Is that fair enough?

Gaylene:

You know, that is also our straight Space to Come strap line is we create spaces that allow you to connect to yourself, to others, and to the world.

Gaylene:

And to me it has to be in that order.

Gaylene:

I think the reason why no revolution has never succeeded and we keep going round this ridiculous thing, is because the first two bits have been missed.

Gaylene:

So we rail against the world, you know, we go out and we, we act, we act against the world.

Gaylene:

And we just as of the world, without doing that first bit, which is how do we shift our, have a more honest, compassionate relationship with ourselves, which then means we can have a more honest, compassionate relationship with other, and then the rest will take care of itself.

Laurence:

Mm-hmm.

Gaylene:

But that bit has to happen first.

Gaylene:

You know, you have to do that internal bit first.

Gaylene:

And I think all of our, or what our experiences do is create space for all three, but definitely the first two.

Gaylene:

So you will have a con, you will have space to have a more intimate conversation with yourselves, and then we'll create a really compassionate sharing space so people can then have a conversation with each other.

Gaylene:

And it's all done through playing imagination.

Gaylene:

So it's not like group therapy, you know what I mean?

Gaylene:

Like it's fun.

Carlos:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

There's two things maybe I wanted to end on.

Carlos:

Firstly, It feels like this work is of its time now, because of the complexity of the challenges we're facing.

Carlos:

One person just railing against some of these big problems that we're facing won't help.

Carlos:

We need to somehow work together on this.

Carlos:

And so that's why I relate self connection so we can connect to others so we can work together as opposed against.

Carlos:

But then that work is, some people find it threatening this self connection work.

Carlos:

And so I wanted to just maybe just end on that, this whole approach that I feel that you are taking this come a more gentle invitational way of doing things.

Carlos:

Invitational way to basically play with your demons.

Laurence:

Crack it open.

Gaylene:

Yeah.

Gaylene:

The most, at the more attractive, I think we use the word invitation a lot and I think that's basically it.

Gaylene:

Is it, you don't have to do it.

Gaylene:

First of all, it's not mandatory.

Gaylene:

It's okay, it's fine.

Gaylene:

Um, but if you do do it, it we can guarantee this is gonna be lovely.

Gaylene:

You know what I mean?

Gaylene:

It's just gonna love, be lovely.

Gaylene:

We, we, we are doing this project called Re-Up, which is all about, um, looking at, and anyway go on the website.

Gaylene:

It's find more about it, but, and this nice little film, but it's all about, I do quite a lot with cultural leadership and thinking about how about if we, rather than think about strategies as productivity, we're thinking about restorative strategies and get, and take, take for granted you can do the job, people do the job.

Gaylene:

But how do you sustain yourself while you do it?

Gaylene:

So we're looking at mind body care, creative intuition, doing kind of day sessions.

Gaylene:

Um, but the first kickoff event we wanted to do is like a late, you know, like a take late.

Gaylene:

So we took over the welcome collection lounge and we just had all these different restorative popup games, experiences from, we had these great MA mass, we had some embodiment practitioners.

Gaylene:

We had a psychotherapist doing a reasoning conversation.

Gaylene:

We had a flower arranging, we had a dj, we had great food.

Gaylene:

We had lots of, um, what you call it, uh, sacred nodding?

Gaylene:

Just all fun things.

Gaylene:

But the whole point was, Really, it's just a chance to have a conversation in a different way, either with yourself or somebody else.

Gaylene:

But it's fun.

Gaylene:

It was a, it was a vibe.

Gaylene:

It was a Friday night, it was a vibe.

Gaylene:

And every, you know, most people left going, I'm ready for the weekend.

Gaylene:

And sure, they may have had some awarenesses and insights, but the, the main point is go and have a nice weekend, do you know what I mean?

Gaylene:

So I think that it's always about the gift.

Gaylene:

It's always about how can we offer something that is a gift, even if you don't wanna do all of the stuff, you feel like you've been gifted something.

Gaylene:

And wish we deserve it.

Gaylene:

We deserve it.

Gaylene:

We deserve nice things, which means, so yeah, that's, that's the approach we take.

Carlos:

I love that.

Carlos:

A nice way to end.

Carlos:

We, we deserve nice things.

Carlos:

Uh, the, the vibe that you described, Uh, about re-up feels very similar to the vibe that we're trying to describe at Summercamp.

Gaylene:

I can't wait.

Carlos:

And this whole feeling, you know, you don't have to have an existential crisis when you're at Summercamp, but it can help.

Carlos:

Um,

Gaylene:

If you do, it's a nice place to have it, right?

Carlos:

Nice place to have it, on a hay bail in the field.

Gaylene:

Crisis.

Carlos:

But yeah, but ultimately it is leaving the weekend feeling like, oh, I can't wait for life.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

And just, and having that feeling of like, oh, this is, this was nice.

Gaylene:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

I, I, I gave myself a nice thing.

Gaylene:

Nice thing.

Carlos:

And then I think that gives us permission to give other people nice things.

Carlos:

Um, so I, I feel very energized by spending time with you again.

Carlos:

It is really lovely.

Gaylene:

Good.

Gaylene:

I'm really glad.

Gaylene:

Me too.

Gaylene:

Me too.

Gaylene:

Like I say, it's.

Gaylene:

Every time I find someone who's open, who's exploring these same questions, I'm so excited.

Gaylene:

So I'm really happy that I found you guys and I'm so excited to come to Summercamp..

Carlos:

Now we've shared your website, uh, and a few things.

Carlos:

Is there anything that's coming up for you right now that you'd like people to point to or is there any way if people want to get in touch with you?

Carlos:

. Gaylene: Yes.

Carlos:

What's the best way?

Gaylene:

The best way is, well, my, I'll put my email address in Ms.

Gaylene:

Gaylene at the space to come.

Gaylene:

We can also join.

Gaylene:

I feel very ashamed talking to you guys 'cause you're ex web dies and you are really good at business.

Gaylene:

I'm not.

Gaylene:

Um, but you do join the mailing list.

Gaylene:

And every now and again you get some communication from us and a newsletter.

Laurence:

That's why I need a plan.

Laurence:

You need, that's why I need a marketing strategy.

Gaylene:

I need market.

Gaylene:

I need a marketing, a comms or marketing person.

Gaylene:

There you go.

Gaylene:

If anyone that's out there who's really good at comms and marketing and wants to help, that's what we're missing at the moment.

Carlos:

I wonder there's someone out there I know who's gonna aching to talk to you and probably help you as well.

Gaylene:

Okay.

Gaylene:

Amazing.

Laurence:

It's funny me, Carlos was talking about this the other day after your conversation that I think we both landed on the website and just got it instantly and like all the different things that you're doing just sort of spoke to us and I think probably like asked for some of our things, other people don't always get it, so it's nice to see those experiences and really connect with 'em and yeah, I'd love to experience more of them myself.

Gaylene:

Yeah.

Laurence:

Rather than just hearing about 'em on the outside.

Gaylene:

Like I say, I think the, the thing that I'm always seeking, I think probably because I was a lonely kid and all these, I had all these ideas, but the environment externally didn't seem fertile that, that, that it's always moving to me when I meet people like yourselves who are just exploring this, these questions in your own way that allow me to feel less alone.

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