Episode 115
Don’t wait until you’re 40 to explode your life
Anniki Summerville is a broadcaster, author, journalist, and speaker specialising in telling positive and authentic narratives about women in their forties and beyond.
This is about the "shoulds" and how when we reach midlife a lot of us start questioning them. The invitation is to do that a lot sooner, and lose the comparisonitis that can follow us around.
Could the solution be to could encourage smaller sparks earlier in life, rather that one big midlife explosion when we hit our forties? Join Carlos and Laurence for this fun discussion.
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Transcript
I suppose I'm kind of like a, is it a hybrid career?
Speaker:I don't quite know what the term is, but I am, I
Speaker:started sort of writing in my, probably in my
Speaker:forties and sort of writing and getting published.
Speaker:'cause those two things are obviously separate.
Speaker:You can often write and not be published.
Speaker:And I suppose at the moment, I would probably describe
Speaker:myself as kind of being a consultant, a broadcaster and
Speaker:author, stroke journalist.
Speaker:And now I could probably add another string, which
Speaker:would be content creator, because one of the things
Speaker:that seems to be doing quite well on my Instagram is me
Speaker:doing Reels where I basically hold up various household
Speaker:items to my Ear and pretend that they're a telephone
Speaker:and then have imaginary conversations on WhatsApp.
Speaker:Um, and it's funny because I've tried so hard and
Speaker:I've worked for different people doing social media,
Speaker:but actually these are probably more popular than
Speaker:many of the other kind of jobs I've been paid to do.
Speaker:Um, which just shows you that sometimes you can do something
Speaker:completely unintentionally and people just find it
Speaker:funny and it resonates.
Speaker:Um, so I, I guess I had children quite late, so it's
Speaker:kind of worth saying that, you know, up until I think I
Speaker:had my first daughter at 40.
Speaker:Up until then, I was hard to the, you know, I am
Speaker:trying to think nose to the grindstone career wise.
Speaker:So I'd kind of climbed up the, the greasy pole and
Speaker:was at the top of the greasy pole, but very much wanted
Speaker:to slide that down again.
Speaker:Um, and so a lot of what I kind of write about kind of, I
Speaker:suppose, the disparity between expectations and reality.
Speaker:So kind of expecting the world to be one way, expecting
Speaker:success to be one way, and then kind of realizing
Speaker:that it can be another way.
Speaker:Um, and I think that's something that, uh, I'm now
Speaker:in my late forties, I've kind of come to realize and
Speaker:it's been a, a positive, you know, that, um, I, I kept
Speaker:waiting for my life to start and it just didn't start.
Speaker:And then I realized I had to start it kind of myself.
Speaker:I'm curious about that, 'cause, you know, I've been
Speaker:playing around with this idea of the midlife startup
Speaker:and just messing around with some thoughts based on our
Speaker:own experiences, myself and Laurence, in terms of just
Speaker:taking the, the back roads of life rather than the
Speaker:motorway in terms of the slow scenic route, and then what
Speaker:that means in terms of just a kind of a more emergent
Speaker:winging it approach to work.
Speaker:When you say you were waiting for it to start,
Speaker:what did start mean?
Speaker:Um, it's, it's interesting I think, um, because I'd done
Speaker:all the things that, I suppose it's all, you know, as a Gen X
Speaker:kind of generation school kid had been told, um, I'd sort
Speaker:of done all of those things.
Speaker:So I'd kind of gone to university, I'd got
Speaker:a fairly good degree.
Speaker:I'd got into a career.
Speaker:I'd stayed in a solid job for 17 years, actually
Speaker:staying with the same agency and had worked my way up to
Speaker:sort of managing partner.
Speaker:So I was kind of managing an office with three
Speaker:other people and, um, I still just kept projecting
Speaker:into the future because I knew that I wasn't happy.
Speaker:So I was.
Speaker:Earning quite a lot of money at that point.
Speaker:Um, so I had all the kind of materialistic things.
Speaker:I mean, I wasn't massively wealthy, but
Speaker:I was pretty privileged.
Speaker:And yet I was also suffering from lots of
Speaker:physical symptoms, so I was feeling like I had
Speaker:headaches all the time.
Speaker:I was feeling grumpy and drained.
Speaker:I was constantly feeling like in meetings that, I
Speaker:mean, I, I write quite a lot about this, how I was
Speaker:almost disassociating so people would be talking.
Speaker:I worked in market research and we did a lot of research
Speaker:into big advertising campaigns or new products
Speaker:that were coming out.
Speaker:And I'd often be sat in meetings, just sort of
Speaker:doodling in, in the kind of exercise, but often quite
Speaker:sort of saying often quite ridiculous kind of doodles,
Speaker:you know, like drawing, you know, often drawing the
Speaker:clients and sort of, there was kind of part of my personality
Speaker:that was very much, um, suppressed in that role
Speaker:because I couldn't, I couldn't show up and be my real self.
Speaker:You know, I'd been like a very playful child, very sort of,
Speaker:I suppose, quite outgoing.
Speaker:And then I feel like this kind of marketing career
Speaker:capped some of that.
Speaker:And so I was kind of pretending that I was
Speaker:someone that I wasn't.
Speaker:And so there'd be this inner voice all the time
Speaker:that would be going, this is shit, you know.
Speaker:This me all was talking bol, you know, all this
Speaker:stuff will be going on.
Speaker:And I think that's what was kind of causing
Speaker:a lot of my symptoms, my physical symptoms.
Speaker:'cause I was trying to squash that person down.
Speaker:And actually I, I wrote a book, my first book
Speaker:that I got published was about a woman who is
Speaker:struggling in her career.
Speaker:And everybody within that narrative was, was
Speaker:based on people that I, I did actually work with.
Speaker:So I kind of, I found that quite cathartic.
Speaker:But I think it was, Part of why this is, you know, sort
Speaker:of called exploding your life is that it was an explosion in
Speaker:that it was this realization that I'm not, I'm not happy.
Speaker:I don't really know what to do about it.
Speaker:I know that what I'm doing at the moment
Speaker:isn't making me happy.
Speaker:And and gradually trying to sort of discover what
Speaker:would make me happy.
Speaker:And I have to say, 'cause some people might be thinking,
Speaker:God, what an amazing position to be in that you can just
Speaker:go and seek your Happiness.
Speaker:It wasn't like that.
Speaker:I didn't kind of drop out and go to Tibet for six
Speaker:months or anything like that.
Speaker:Afford to do that.
Speaker:That's an option that's only open to a very
Speaker:small minority, I think.
Speaker:I had to earn money.
Speaker:So basically I just started to segue, um, doing sort of
Speaker:some sort of writing online that was turned into a blog,
Speaker:trying to sort of, um, do some social media stuff that I was
Speaker:interested in and gradually, gradually started to sort of
Speaker:discover work that I enjoyed.
Speaker:And I suppose the writing really, really helped.
Speaker:And I'd, I'd definitely say if you are listening
Speaker:and, and watching and thinking, oh, I'm at a loss
Speaker:about who I'm and what I want to do, start writing.
Speaker:And even if that's just a load of brain dump mm, it's often a
Speaker:really good tool to help guide you into sort of finding out
Speaker:who you are and what you want.
Speaker:'Cause I sort of feel that that's what I did.
Speaker:I sort of discovered, I rediscovered this
Speaker:place inside myself.
Speaker:Again, when I was writing, I realized I,
Speaker:I really enjoyed it.
Speaker:And that's kind of kept me going actually.
Speaker:So I still work now.
Speaker:So I still, I work at head of brand, uh, company.
Speaker:It's another Startup called Jude who are amazing.
Speaker:And I'm still kind of writing and I, but I think what's
Speaker:happened is my attitude to work has shifted.
Speaker:So I think now maybe other people will feel this
Speaker:is true too, but I kind of feel like it's not
Speaker:my core focus anymore.
Speaker:There's like me, there's my personality, there's my
Speaker:work, there's my writing, there's my relationship,
Speaker:there's my friendships, there's a whole other
Speaker:load of stuff that exists.
Speaker:Whereas I think probably for the first 18 years
Speaker:of my career, it, it was very narrow.
Speaker:It was, it was really just work.
Speaker:And a partner, but it was kind of shopping.
Speaker:That was it.
Speaker:It was traditional capital, you know,
Speaker:things and that was it.
Speaker:So I feel like it's much richer now.
Speaker:So work is just one aspect of, of my life.
Speaker:I think that's an interesting part there, this whole
Speaker:identifying with work, and that being the thing
Speaker:that we, you know, we have this narrow focus.
Speaker:It's all about the career or the job or
Speaker:the things that we do.
Speaker:And I don't know if it feels like it's still a very strong
Speaker:narrative, you know, while younger people are looking,
Speaker:it feels like, um, new generation is just trying
Speaker:to understand a different ex uh, relationship to, to work
Speaker:and life and what it means to be successful, there's still
Speaker:a very strong attachment to this idea of that work is
Speaker:the thing that defines us.
Speaker:From your experience, why do we get forced down that path?
Speaker:What is it that just narrows Our view and focus
Speaker:are purely on the work?
Speaker:I think 'cause from, you know, when we are at school, the
Speaker:first question that people ask us is kind of, what are
Speaker:you gonna be when you grow up?
Speaker:And we are kind of, we are not necessarily encouraged to say,
Speaker:I'm gonna be a great dad, or I'm gonna be an amazing lover
Speaker:to my partner, or, you know, I'm gonna do all the domestic
Speaker:admin around the house, or, you know, I'm gonna.
Speaker:I, I'm gonna have two cats and I'm gonna love them to death.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Gonna write, you know, you're really encouraged to just see
Speaker:yourself as your profession.
Speaker:And we carry that on when we go to parties, when we
Speaker:meet other people, um, we tend to almost immediately
Speaker:ask them, what do you do?
Speaker:You know, what's your job?
Speaker:And we are still very status driven.
Speaker:So there are certain jobs that we kind of.
Speaker:Might give you extra kind of Brownsey points
Speaker:and respect and some jobs that might less so.
Speaker:And certainly with me, because I was in market
Speaker:research, market research, a lot of people, when I
Speaker:introduced myself and said I did that, they thought
Speaker:I was one of those people with a, a clipboard who kind
Speaker:of come and harass you in Tesco, you know, and ask you
Speaker:20 questions about how your shopping has been that day.
Speaker:And I used to always then sort of, I'd follow it up
Speaker:with not that kind of market research, like I do other kind
Speaker:of market research, and then I would try and name some of
Speaker:the big brands that I kind of worked with and piggyback
Speaker:onto their reputation.
Speaker:So I'd be like, oh yeah, you know, so I'm like,
Speaker:my big client is kind of like Estee Lauder, you
Speaker:know, I do like loads.
Speaker:So it's kind of, it was very much kind of, all of
Speaker:my identity was tied up with work, but funny enough, I
Speaker:didn't feel proud of, of that.
Speaker:You know, I didn't feel, I would feel very empty inside.
Speaker:So when I did use that as an introduction, I
Speaker:didn't feel like, oh yeah.
Speaker:You know, um, because I think part of the problem is, is you
Speaker:can never, you can, once you go down that route of purely
Speaker:defining yourself by your professional success, there's
Speaker:always gonna be somebody who's better than you in the room.
Speaker:There's always going to be someone who is, has got
Speaker:more money, a bigger house.
Speaker:You know, it's a, it's a very narrow definition.
Speaker:And now I think once, one of the interesting things is when
Speaker:I meet someone with a really impressive job, I always
Speaker:think, oh, that's great.
Speaker:What about all the other stuff?
Speaker:What about what's going on?
Speaker:And so, and, and often when I read profiles of people,
Speaker:I'll notice that they leave all of that stuff out.
Speaker:So they talk quite often about the daily routine of the,
Speaker:the founder of the, you know, massively successful business.
Speaker:But sometimes they, they leave the rest of it.
Speaker:And I'm like, well, who feeds your cats?
Speaker:And, you know, mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, what do you, what do you love doing with your kids?
Speaker:And, you know, what's the thing that your wife gets
Speaker:really irritated about?
Speaker:You know, what's your, you know, why can't we
Speaker:talk about those things?
Speaker:'cause actually, the fact that you've done 16
Speaker:conference calls while you were running on a treadmill
:00 AM, I don't find that impressive, that level
:of obsessive productivity is actually really damaging.
:So I think, uh, hopefully now one of the things
:that's happened, I think post covid is that people
:are starting to think, I want more out of life.
:You know, hopefully, I'm, I'm hoping that younger
:generations are, are thinking, you know, I, I want to find
:other definitions of success.
:And I do hear that amongst colleagues
:when I talk to them.
:And they're all much younger than me, and, and
:they do seem to be talking that kind of language.
:Um, that, the trouble is, is that in London, you
:know, living in London, you've got to earn a
:certain amount of money in order just to survive.
:So it's still, it's still a really tricky one.
:You can't suddenly go, oh, I'm gonna start a business selling
:beanie hats 'cause that's what I really wanna do inside.
:Mm-hmm.
:Um, so I'm always, yeah, I'm always cautious 'cause I sort
:of think I, I still have to do, you know, and certainly
:when I'm freelancing, I do a lot of work I enjoy and I
:would, you know, I have to go and just do it just in
:order to earn, earn money.
:And I think we all have to do that.
:Um, but it's just, if you can, if you could do a
:sidestep into stuff you're more interested in, I
:really think that's when you are more successful.
:So, like my, you know, my books haven't made me
:kind of a millionaire, but I feel, I feel more
:successful since I've been writing and being published.
:Um, much more successful than when I was a managing partner
:and could you use that as a, as a term to describe myself?
:So on one hand, there's this story or this narrative
:about the, our self-worth and values defined by how much
:we do or how much we have.
:Then the challenge I'm hearing with that is then there's
:always someone who's done more or someone who has more.
:And I think we talked about this a little bit in our
:conversation before about this idea of comparisonitis.
:We're always looking to compare ourselves.
:So I wanted to touch on that before we maybe just
:think about some other ways of thinking about success.
:So from your experience of this whole comparisonitis
:thing, what, why, why do we fall into that trap?
:Um, I think as we expect to get the payoff, you know,
:so if we've, if we've done what we were supposed to
:do, we, you know, we got the job and we worked really
:hard, and then we got the, the family and the house
:and the car, then we want to feel successful and we want
:to feel fulfilled inside.
:And so I think quite often we use that to judge other
:people as well and to make ourselves feel better.
:I mean, I, I think I sort of described it to you, I mean,
:Miranda Sawyer, who wrote a really good book about sort
:of being in your forties, she said, um, she's the only
:one who doesn't have the box on the back of the house.
:And, and the box on the back of the house effectively,
:the kitchen extension that everybody has as another
:kind of tick for success.
:And they all look exactly the same.
:So, you know, you go to your friend's house and you
:go, oh, what house am I in?
:Am I in the, am I in, you know, Jackie's
:house or Jean's house?
:'cause they both are exactly the same, but
:that's definitely a tick box for success.
:And I get caught up in it too.
:So I spent a lot of time really mourning the fact
:that I didn't have the box on the back of the house.
:And then kind of realizing that.
:In order to get that, I would have to go back
:into probably a corporate kind of environment again.
:And if I did my, my duty there and really got my head down,
:I could have one of those.
:And then I sort of thought I, I've started now sort of
:thinking, do I want that?
:And yeah, sometimes I bloody do.
:Like, sometimes I do think, like at the moment we've got
:a car and it's got gaffer tape holding the bumper on because
:we've, we've not got round to fixing it and we've also
:been budgeting and we've got loads of other stuff to do.
:But I still find myself caught in that trap.
:And we all have our personal triggers.
:So your, yours might not be the box on the
:back of the house.
:It might be meeting somebody and realizing that they've got
:a holiday home or they've got a brand of trainers on that
:you can only buy in Korea and they're like 5 million pounds.
:Or, you know, you are all gonna have your,
:your flashpoints.
:But I think I've got better now at kind of
:taking a step back and thinking, what do you do?
:What do you have to do in order to get that?
:And what, what do I really want that, is that actually
:gonna make me, make me happy?
:'Cause you can still be miserable.
:I've got plenty of friends who've got enormous houses
:and their marriages are just bullshit and their
:relationships with their kids are not great and.
:Mm-hmm.
:They're stressed.
:And so I think we all know that that's true, but still
:we buy into it, you know, because the messages are
:so strong and pervasive.
:You know, when we're on the tube, when we're watching tv,
:that materialism and having a lot of material stuff is
:what defines you successful and makes you happy.
:And it's very hard actually.
:'cause, you know, I, I, I was totally like that as a child.
:I totally wanted to have all of that material success.
:And I think it's only now that I'm realizing it, it
:doesn't work, you know.
:Within reason.
:Because the, the thing is we have to be very cautious
:that of course you need to have a roof over your head.
:You need to have food.
:You know, these are all.
:The basics you need to have, you know,
:I, when you say that, and you mentioned it before,
:you like this being a very kind of balanced view
:that I think of Maslow's hierarchy, hierarchy of needs.
:You know, there's a certain, well we have needs for
:material safety and physical safety, uh, in terms of
:having food on the table and, and, and not feeling like
:someone's just gonna walk into our house and steal stuff.
:Funny because I'm still looking in the background and
:I'm sort of thinking, I wonder what their kitchen looks like.
:You know, I still, I mean, I'm still, I still have
:that kind of schizophrenia a little bit where, you know,
:I find it hard to not want, you know, not want those
:things or not to wonder.
:You know, I have to, if I go and visit somebody, I've, one
:of my best friends has got amazing, an amazing house.
:And I go inside and I feel myself sort of sink, you
:know, I feel, I feel like, I have all those voices, like,
:you're not successful enough.
:You could have achieved this, but you haven't, you know,
:you made some bad choices.
:All those things are coming up.
:And then I'm sort of looking around and then I'm like,
:I walk away and I still feel this horrible kind of
:sense of failure, really.
:That's the only way I can describe it.
:And then I sort of have to take a deep breath and sort
:of go, hang on a minute, you're getting wrapped
:up in that thing again.
:Mm-hmm.
:And you need to stop.
:Well, you said before you take, you, you, you've
:been able to take a bit of a, well, a step back.
:And so I'd be curious to, to talk about that.
:And I think given what we talked about, you know,
:this, this magic number or magic number, a number.
:We, we had some I.
:Comments about the, using the, the, the 40 number, because
:for some people that's still very young, so, okay, cool.
:And on the, we have the majority of people here,
:the overwhelming majority are here, are 40 and over.
:There's this thing around, and I remember when I was
:young, I couldn't wait till they get to the age of 40
:for some reason in my head, once I was at 40, it would be
:all fine, you know, sorted.
:And, and there's this, like, up until then it is, I dunno,
:there was, it was gonna be a rollercoaster ride.
:And then you hit this age of 40 and you're
:supposed to have done certain things or whatever.
:It's, is it achieved, got the certain job, it's got some
:certain type of lifestyle, you know, whatever trappings that
:modern life is giving you.
:But even then, like you're saying, we fall into this
:behavior of thinking, oh, I haven't got enough, it
:isn't enough because someone else has more than me.
:It's funny 'cause I have a whole lot and I noticed that
:Ray has said about kind of a thought spiral and sort
:of when you, when you get caught, caught up in that.
:And really, I, I mean I love self-help books and I've been
:reading them from a very, you know, I probably was reading
:self-help books when I was about eight, nine years old.
:And through, throughout that period of time, I've kind of
:gathered a whole lot of tools.
:And some of them are things like, um, exercise, like
:just going and, you know, doing a, a walk outside.
:Some of them is actually being with my, you know,
:being with my kids.
:There's a kids just walk in here.
:Some of it's just kind of like doing that.
:Um, sometimes it might be doing some breathing.
:Like I, you know, I do have an app on my phone and I
:try and basically do a bit of meditation now and then.
:So it's kind of, there's a whole variety of tools
:that I kind of use.
:And that gets me out of the catastrophizing.
:That's what I would call it.
:Well, there's, there's something for me there
:about being present.
:So the link I'm making to this whole comparisonitis and maybe
:just, this, these unpleasant feelings that we may get
:when we go and see someone who's got a nicer kitchen,
:a bigger house, a nicer car, and more holiday homes.
:Like you said, sort of like there's a self-criticism
:or regret because of an actions that we
:didn't take in the past.
:Or there's a kind of a looking to the future of
:like, okay, what does that mean in terms of where am
:I gonna be if I don't have this house or this space?
:These kind of like thoughts that take us out of like
:experiencing what we're experiencing right now.
:I mean, I've, I've written about this quite a lot,
:kind of in the eighties there was this whole idea
:that, you know, you could have it all, you know, you
:could, as a woman anyway, that you could kind of, you
:know, Shirley Conran wrote this amazing book, which
:actually was misinterpreted, which was, I think it
:was called Superwoman.
:So it was all about, you can have the career, you
:can have the kids, you can have the relationship, have
:the friends have them, you can have the whole thing.
:And I certainly kind of absorbed some of
:that information where basically I thought I
:could have it, have it all.
:I do talk quite a lot about kind of people pleasing, and
:I think that's, that's another thing about doing the things
:that you don't love, you know, judging other people
:on kind of material things.
:It's all sort of tied in with that notion of
:wanting people to like you and sort of judging
:other people and stuff.
:And a big thing for me, I think was just that post
:40 I experienced a, you know, more recently I've
:experienced kind of literal kind of losses in terms of,
:you know, my dad died, um, very unexpectedly sort of
:probably just two years ago.
:Uh, you know, I had fertility treatment in my forties.
:These, some of these kind of medical sort of things
:and losing people, I think actually those things,
:unfortunately, even though you don't choose them, they bring
:you into the present because you are, you are having to,
:and you're, you're basically gone from somebody who's
:kind of preoccupied by the meeting that they've got that
:morning to actually thinking about really big questions,
:which is like, what happens if, if I die tomorrow, will I
:be, will I be satisfied with what's happened thus far?
:You know, with my parents dying now, are they, it it
:sort of sets you off on a path of looking backwards
:and thinking about their lives and were they happy
:with the path that they took?
:And so I now find that actually some of those really
:deep, quite heavy things has helped me stay present.
:'cause even with things, I mean, you know, even
:things like grieving for example, um, it's a
:very visceral sensation.
:You know, you do, you kind of feel, you feel quite heavy.
:You can be crying, you know, you can be very up and down.
:And I sort of, I think now I'm much more, maybe
:that is through practicing some of the mindfulness.
:I'm more in tune with my emotions and sort of
:like my feelings and, and not avoiding them.
:And I think a lot of the behavior before I was
:basically avoiding feelings.
:So I was running all the time.
:I think a lot of working people are that, you know,
:people say that to me now.
:They're kind of like, you, you, you find it very hard
:to relax and that's true.
:Um, and that's, that's something I learned from
:my own parents that we didn't prioritize rest.
:We just didn't, you know, you were only, you had
:to be busy all the time.
:Um, now I think I've probably got better
:at noticing that too.
:So sort of going, hang on.
:You are really, you are, you are, you're getting really
:sucked into that busy thing and you need to come back
:into this, this moment now.
:Um, something, I mean, it's very hard, but I think
:you all, you just have to practice it, you know?
:Um, and unfortunately life circumstances can
:force you into it too.
:Another factor around the busyness is that how, like
:we were saying before, our value and our self-worth is
:tied to how much we do and, and how impactful or how broad
:the impact of that doing is.
:Whether that's, you know, managing people in a company
:or being a TED talker, But this whole idea of
:not stopping, and being, because it then means that
:we have to feel stuff or these feelings come up.
:And, you know, talking about grief and how I think some
:people try suppress it.
:And I've been very, um, guilty of just like try to push away
:the feelings because I didn't know what to do with them.
:It's like that, ah, this feels really horrible.
:How do I put, how do I, what do I do with this?
:How do I, what, what is this supposed to, what value is
:this to me to feel shit?
:But then there's something around how I think I'm
:seeing what I'm hearing is I like, actually it's just the
:processes, feeling shit is is the what you need to do.
:But also, I mean, that's something to not, I mean
:it depends what your sort of spiritual beliefs are.
:But the level of shit that you feel, certainly when you miss
:somebody is really reflective of how much you love them.
:So it's really comes back to, now I'm starting to
:realize that now, is that my productivity, productivity
:really took off after my dad died and I, in
:lockdown, I wrote two books.
:I launched a podcast.
:I was just going mad in terms of doing stuff,
:and I was totally trying.
:I mean, now I look back on it and I think, oh, we
:were just totally trying to avoid feelings and it was
:a complicated situation in, in the situation that he,
:you know, circumstances, it wasn't easy, um, because he
:had a problem with addiction and he was an alcoholic.
:So there was all sorts of other issues as well.
:Um, but now when I get these heavy feelings, and I
:do get them still, because that's the other thing with
:grief is that people often think, oh, you get over it.
:You, you never do.
:I still strongly believe that, you know, 10, 20 years on, you
:have these very, very strong feelings of, of, of loss.
:Um, I'm now much better at recognizing, but you know,
:that's, this is normal.
:Not only is it normal to feel like this, this
:is a reflection of the fact that you loved your
:father, you know, and he loved you and that, and
:you are missing that love.
:That's the absence of, of, but the love is
:actually still there.
:It sounds really cheesy, but I'm still carrying that.
:It's just that I don't have anyone to sort of
:bo it back to me again.
:Um, so I think once you sort of accept that it's, it's
:normal and it's natural.
:And I would say if anyone, you know, if anyone is grieving,
:it's really helpful to sort of find resources that, that
:are kind of filled with other people who are going through
:it because there's an awful lot of kind of, yeah, you feel
:so much better just knowing that it's a, the feelings that
:you're having a a, a normal whatever that means, um.
:Hmm.
:But I guess, yeah, that's definitely, definitely
:made me more present.
:But definitely thinking about my parents and their
:definitions of success.
:'Cause they, I think both of them were kind of
:workaholics pretty much.
:Um, and so now I sort of think, well, it's not
:surprising that you grew up to be a workaholic too.
:Um, you know, and, and like you've already touched on,
:we, we respect workaholics, you know, um, but we have
:this strange thing where we sort of go, you know,
:hope you're keeping busy.
:That's another thing that people say, oh,
:you're keeping busy.
:And if you said, no, I'm not keeping busy.
:I'm just sitting in the garden doing absolutely nothing, you
:would be judged, you know?
:Um, so there's this whole, apart from the kind of
:what are you gonna be when you grow up, you know,
:the kind of keeping busy.
:And then there's this whole notion around kind
:of judging one another by how much stuff they have.
:You can see how we get caught in these narratives.
:Um, and it's hard to, to jump out.
:And even with my, when I write my books, I still
:want to have success.
:I still want to.
:You know, I have mad fantasies where I wanna be on Oprah's
:Book Club and you know, I wanna be, you know, I wanna
:be as big as Marian Keys and, and what's that all about?
:Why can't I just be happy just writing?
:Um, so there are still, I still kind of wanting
:to be successful.
:But I guess what, what I want now is to be
:recognized for the things that I really enjoyed doing
:versus for something that didn't really feel like it
:was me and my best work.
:You know, I was, I was sort of trapped in someone
:else's body for a long time.
:One of the things that we, we've been exploring, um,
:the Happy Startup School in our programs and our coaching
:is this connection to needs.
:And so, a way I would interpret what you're saying
:before about the feelings, you know, the feelings of grief,
:feelings of loss, feelings of sadness, 'cause there's
:this need for connection with someone with your father
:who's no longer around.
:And then how identifying these things, these feelings and
:what they connect to in terms of these needs are, are ways
:to navigate our way forward and understand what, what kind
:of actions we need to take.
:And I'm linking that to this, you know, we're talking
:about how do we navigate the second half of life, let's
:put it this way, given that we've used a certain compass
:in the past, uh, which was this objective measure of
:success based on some kind of numeric, uh, approach.
:You know, you, we, we talked about, we, we've been led
:by other people's metrics.
:What is your, now, now your process of defining
:that and working with that?
:You said about doing stuff that you love and
:being known for that.
:How you, how, what is it that's, helping you
:define those things?
:Um, it's an interesting one.
:I mean, one of the exercises that I find really helpful,
:like I said, is writing a lot.
:So using writing, not just writing for publishing, but
:just writing for myself.
:What I've found is that when you write, there tends to be
:a, a gut kind of feeling which points you in the direction
:of the thing that you want.
:You know, you're sort of like, oh.
:The more that you write, the more you're kind of like,
:oh, this is how, you know, this is what I love doing.
:This is kind of how I feel.
:It helps identify what you don't want as well.
:I mean, I wish I kind of, what I wish is that
:I discovered way earlier.
:'cause I mean, there may be people who are listening
:and they're kind of like, That little voice that's
:on your shoulder that's going, this is shit.
:I hate it.
:I hate this, this, this jerk is driving me mad.
:You know, I, I wanna, you know.
:All those thoughts, listen to them.
:Don't just go right, I'll have some booze and that
:will shut that one up.
:Or, you know, I'll go and have an affair with someone
:and then I'll feel better about myself, or whatever
:those things are that we use to numb or escape,
:listen to that voice.
:And I think all that's happened with me is I've got
:better at listening to it.
:And then I, once I, once I listen to it, sometimes that
:voice isn't right, by the way.
:'cause sometimes the voice can be like, you're really
:shit and you are a failure.
:This is another voice, which is really your
:gut, which is kind of telling you who you are.
:Um, and if you're feeling increasingly every time
:you go to work, feeling like the real kind of, it's
:not coherent with who you are, then listen to that.
:Um, and I think that's all I've probably done.
:But I've also had to take direct action.
:So I basically had to, you know, I was lucky that I
:was made redundant from work, and within that
:redundancy I got a payout.
:If I hadn't got that, I wouldn't have been able to
:then embark on a sort of hybrid career of my own.
:Now almost every decision I make is driven by the
:fact of financially.
:Is it rewarding enough that it's worth my while?
:Or is it something that I would love to do?
:So like, you know, if I love doing something, I will do it.
:And does it feel like the gut voice is going yeah, that's
:great, that's brilliant, you do that, then I do it.
:Um, if it's really financially rewarding, I do it.
:If it's neither of those things, then I don't do it.
:Um, it's kind of the older you get, the better you
:get identifying that.
:So you're kind of, you know now, I used to spend
:a lot of time because I was very much in the sort
:of Instagram world where there were so many people
:pre covid where it's like, let's go and have a coffee.
:You know, let's go and have a coffee.
:And I would go and have coffees with a million
:different people.
:And now I'm just like, no, I don't wanna have a coffee.
:Like, I'll be completely frank with you.
:But unless there's something happening out of this,
:like, be it a friendship, I, we feel some sort of gut
:risk connection that we're gonna be friends or there's
:some work coming out of it, which is gonna be well
:paid or it's gonna be some creative pursuit that I'm
:really into, I'm not into it.
:Do you know what I mean?
:I won't, I won't do it.
:And I think through using that kind of traffic light
:system of red, you know, Amber Green for everything,
:life gets a lot easier and you just find yourself
:doing more of the thing.
:And it's funny because I'm now at a bit of a
:crossroads 'cause I've kind of realized I've written
:five books and they've been published, but I'm not living
:off the proceeds of that.
:So I'm now at the point where I'm kind of, I could
:write another book, but actually what I want to
:do is take some time and reflect what I want next.
:And obviously I'm working at the same time, but it's
:kind of, am I gonna just keep on writing books?
:Am I still happy writing books and not getting a sort of
:salary out of it, you know?
:Mm-hmm.
:Um, what do I do?
:Um, and it's interesting 'cause actually
:it's the two things.
:It's kind of the material, you know, there is still
:that materialism about wanting to be a Sunday
:Times bestselling author.
:But yeah, I, I mean, I actually think for anyone
:who's kind of in their 40, not 40 or is just in
:early forties, I really do strongly believe that life
:gets better as you get older.
:Um, and I didn't believe that for a long time.
:And for women, I think aging in particular is
:a really quite a tricky thing to navigate.
:But I do now.
:I do, I sort of, I sort of, as long as you're lucky
:enough to have your health, I think in terms of your
:clarity on what you want, it becomes much, much clearer.
:And that's why they call it the midlife crisis often,
:is that it's the, it's the snake shedding its skin.
:You know, the old, the old sort of skin comes off and the
:new snake comes out, whatever.
:Probably not a good analogy.
:Um, but you do feel, feel.
:You know, you're like, right, I've got no time for bullshit.
:I don't wanna waste time having coffee with
:people I don't like, you know, I don't give a
:shit about your big car.
:You know, you can drone on about your holiday, but
:I'm not gonna listen to it because I know that's not
:what I want at the moment.
:And you sort of, yeah, I think you do.
:You just become much, much lost, less tolerant of, uh,
:certain things, which, which makes your life better.
:Sounds like you are a point now of reflection.
:You know, you're saying, okay, well given everything
:I've done so far, where do I want to go next?
:And I, I, I've come to value that much more
:recently in terms of not the incessant doing and,
:and, and just plowing on, um, though stopping and just
:thinking, just feels, and I, I still have a bit of a
:reaction to it 'cause it, it feels a bit too passive.
:But there's something here around, given what you said
:before, there's something here around feelings.
:There's something about just, just checking in,
:and then, then being able to, to carve out the, the
:right strategy, the right path for the future based on
:what you've learned so far.
:And it could be a completely different path because
:you think, okay, you know, this isn't working, so
:I'm gonna do something else, um, which I think is
:challenging for some people.
:And so, a question I had was really around how
:has your tolerance for risk evolved over time?
:I think it's really interesting when we
:think about risk.
:'cause I think I was really risk averse, which is
:obviously why I stayed in the same job for so long.
:Um, but because I came from a, you know, we are all,
:we, we are the way we are because of our childhoods.
:And I think my childhood, we moved a lot.
:We lived in different countries.
:My parents were divorced.
:Um, we had what would be described as a bohemian
:sort of upbringing.
:You know, I have something like upwards of, I can't even
:keep count six to nine sort of step and half brothers.
:You know, my mom's married three times.
:I mean, none of that's judge judgy, but what I wanted
:instability for a long period of time actually,
:that's what I wanted.
:And actually now, I mean, children come into it actually
:is that now I'm probably more, um, open to taking risks.
:You know, like now I'm even considering like, do I wanna
:move to a different location?
:But the children are now the big factor of kind of like,
:is that gonna be okay or not?
:Uh, what about that?
:You know, I think they're much more cautious now.
:My parents really did not, I don't think they, they were
:not inconsiderate, but they did, they lived their lives
:and children lived with them.
:They didn't live their lives for their children, which
:is what we tend to do now.
:It's like everything we do is driven by what they need.
:They've got a play date, we all go to the play date.
:They've got an activity.
:We all get activity.
:Some of it, I think is not particularly
:healthy, um, necessarily.
:But yeah, I think to your question, I'm, I'm
:probably, I wish I was, I could take more risks, but
:I've now got, you know, I have to consider them too.
:I can't just go off and do whatever I fancy, you know.
:So maybe I'll take kids out of the equation then,
:because that is a very specific pace, case in point.
:'cause we have, uh, well, there's a sense of
:responsibility, uh, not only for their physical wellbeing,
:but also their emotional wellbeing and how these, how,
:how the choices we make in the present will potentially
:impact their futures in all sorts of ways, and I, and
:that's, that's an interesting thing there for me.
:But at a personal level, you said, you know, your,
:sounds like your appetite for risk is be, is greater.
:How has your relationship to risk changed?
:Why are you feeling, forgetting the kids that
:you'd like to shake things up or you're happy to
:shake things up more?
:I think basically, um, probably, the age that
:I am probably losing my father had a big role in
:that because I think I, I, I realized that I'd had so
:many conversations with him around the things that he
:was gonna do when he retired.
:So he was like, you know, when I retire I'm gonna do
:this and I'm gonna, he, he always used to say, when I
:retire, I'll write a book.
:He was a doctor in philosophy, so he was like an academic.
:And he died without having, he didn't retire.
:He didn't get to retire the year that he was supposed
:to retire, that it happened.
:And I think the whole notion of retirement is weird anyway.
:'cause it's kind of like what you're gonna live your whole
:life, not enjoying yourself, just so you can sit on a
:cruise in a Hawaiian shirt or smoking a cigar and then die?
:It's kind of, it's just weird.
:It's like you're storing up just for
:that retirement moment.
:Um, but I think for me now, I've sort of felt, look,
:you know, it sounds really grim, but you know, death
:can come at any moment and we never really know
:what's gonna happen to us.
:And as we get older, we just, we have no, no idea.
:And so it is a bit of that cliche of I've got to do the
:things that are gonna make me happy and fulfilled now
:because I can't, you know, I might be exactly the same.
:I might retire and pop my clogs the next day, you know?
:And then, you know, I'm kind of, I'm often trying
:to keep that perspective now of, I think, along
:with my own voice, there's also my father's voice now
:sort of saying, listen Nik, you need to get a move on.
:You know, do the stuff that you wanna do because
:you know, you've, it's, I haven't got that long left,
:you know, on the planet.
:And so you can't keep putting off like thinking,
:you know, I kept thinking, I thought, you know, when
:I'm 40, I kind of had this idea that, you know, I was
:gonna be living by the coast.
:You know, I thought that might have happened,
:it hasn't happened.
:That's kind of one of the things I really wanna do.
:I wanna go and swim in, like in the sea.
:I haven't really, you know, I haven't done that.
:I like the idea of doing that.
:I like the idea of, you know, sampling
:life outside of London.
:I've lived in London for a long time, but I'm starting to
:fall out of love with it now.
:But the other problem is that I have this whole idea that
:when I live there, I will have a different life and
:my life will be completely different to the way it's now.
:Suddenly I will turn into a very active sport, you
:know, sporty, outdoor person.
:There's something about having children that we also need
:to consider when it comes to our work and how fast
:we wanna move with work.
:So I just wanted to just help invite you to touch a bit on
:that to just, for anyone who, who is having, who does have
:children and they are trying to do something different or
:move forward with a change.
:Yeah, I mean I found it really tough in that I'd had
:so much of my life without children and then suddenly
:to, I think a lot of men and women find it tough.
:I think they traditionally, they always say it's tougher
:for women, but I think it's for both in that you suddenly
:can't, you have to slow down.
:I mean, you've got to, they've got this little
:thing that you've got to look after and you've got
:to, everything's around their routines and stuff.
:I still kind of haven't got it entirely sussed out.
:The one thing I do know is that I couldn't, I
:wouldn't be able to function if I was staying at home
:with them all the time.
:Like, I know, I know that for myself.
:Um, 'cause I know that, and I'm lucky enough in that
:'cause a lot of, you know, childcare's so expensive.
:I'm lucky enough that I can earn enough to pay for
:childcare, 'cause that's a big, that's a big thing for
:a lot of people, you know, childcare's so expensive.
:, I feel the eternal guilt all the time because I'm always
:feeling like whenever I'm doing something for myself,
:I feel like I could be doing something for them.
:And the other thing which I think we're all familiar
:with is there's just so much admin that goes around
:looking after children.
:This kind of, there's obviously being with them,
:but then there's this, all this other shit, like kind
:of, you know, we've got lots of WhatsApp kind of
:channels, which is partly why I started taking the piss out
:of WhatsApp on my Instagram because I was getting sort
:of upwards of kind of 15 messages a day about is it
:PE day, is it World Book Day?
:Can you bring a card in for the teacher?
:You need to log onto this platform and, and do a
:donation, 'cause there's a workshop happening.
:Um, can you, you know, I don't know, there was just so can
:you volunteer for the PSA?
:You know, all of this really quite, some of it's
:really good, obviously.
:We need to do that stuff, but I felt like it's a lot of
:unpaid work and I'm sure if there's moms who are watching,
:and I know we touched on this before, unfortunately, a lot
:of that work can fall onto the mother rather than the father.
:So the mom has a, a job then it's unpaid work, which
:is organizing her kids.
:You know, entire universe, every day, even thinking
:ahead, it's boring stuff.
:It's like, is there clean socks in the drawer
:because they've gotta go to school tomorrow.
:You know, where's the Brownsey uniform?
:Um, I end up doing this thing when I'm at work
:where I'm WhatsApping other mums, 'cause my partner's
:at home and he's got to get one of them to brownies.
:So I'm basically organizing his childcare at work
:whilst I'm in a meeting.
:And this is one of the bug bears where I think
:there's loads of interesting books about it, where
:that's a big distraction.
:You know, if women, you know, I'm pretty sure that
:Cheryl Sandberg doesn't deal with that, you know,
:and I mean, I know she's a controversial figure, but
:I think if you, women could probably achieve far more,
:if they weren't continually being dragged down.
:It's like having big, massive stones in your
:pockets every day that you are sort of carrying around.
:So certainly when they're, it's been a
:massive compromise.
:'cause I feel like I, I, I, I discovered what I wanted
:to do and then I had kids, and the kids have slowed
:me down significantly.
:But, you know, I chose that and I was lucky
:enough to have, you know, to be able to have them.
:So, um, people keep telling me it gets easier.
:Um, but I dunno if that's true.
:I dunno if it is true.
:I think that's a myth.
:I
:it is, it is true.
:It is true.
:It gets different and it does get easier.
:Um, I just wanna bring in Laurence, 'cause it, well,
:from my, I I had my second child when we just started
:the Happy, Startup School.
:And I think, um, my wife has a different opinion
:as to whether that was a good thing or not.
:Um,
:We were lucky we both had kids around the same time
:when we were growing our business or starting it.
:And so, We were lucky.
:I think that we had similar goals and visions for
:how we wanted to work as co-founders together, which
:I think is quite rare.
:which probably helped that we were friends before.
:Um, but yeah, I think it's, it's a new phenomenon.
:I think this idea of, like you said, putting our kids first.
:My dad always said, they've come to live with you,
:not the other way around.
:And that was one of the things that stuck with me.
:Is like, don't change anything because you've got kids.
:Just, they'll, they'll follow you.
:So if you wanna go make a change, go make it.
:Um, which sounds easy, right?
:It sounds so easy, but I think it's really hard to.
:Yeah, I love that.
:I do love that advice though.
:I think that's really, but that's how my parents
:behaved very much.
:Um, you know, so we did, we traveled a lot.
:But it's just having that bad, it's like being able to
:be free, but also offering them that stability.
:'Cause I think, uh, that was something that I felt like I
:lacked was, it was kind of, I, I I wanted to have a kind of
:very traditional upbringing.
:I wanted to have, you know, I used to say to my mom,
:I'd go like, oh, you know, I want mum who's like,
:wears a pinny and makes me cakes and stuff, you know,
:a mum's got pink hair and a nose ring and is like going
:off to Nicaragua, you know?
:So It, it is hard, but I think it's good for them
:actually a bit of change.
:'cause they're gonna have to navigate change, you
:know, numerous times.
:And also, I think the final thing I'd add to that, I
:mean, we work with a lot of people who are, like
:you said, navigating this transition, let's call it.
:I always just say to people, I always just think if you can
:be the best version of you, then that's good for the kids.
:Even if it means maybe they sacrifice something
:in the short term.
:You know, it might not be, they get all the, the best
:trainers or the best of everything, but hopefully
:you'll be a better person around them and longer
:term it's better for them.
:So, I don't know, I think there's sometimes we have
:this responsibility of they'll expect everything as we
:need to put them first, but.
:Yeah.
:Yeah, I don't think that's always good for them.
:If the collateral damage of that is we end up doing
:something we don't wanna do, which is not good for anyone.
:Yeah.
:And and then they're seeing you 'cause they're gonna
:model themselves on you too, so they're basically seeing
:you not living the life that you want and thinking
:Exactly.
:That's okay.
:Yeah.
:There's something here around any resentment
:that colors anything that you do for your kids.
:I think if there is any of that element of resentment,
:then that's gonna come across and, you know, whether, if you
:have to sacrifice going, doing something so that they can
:do something for themselves.
:Um, there's also the whole material aspect of things
:and wishing that they could have certain things.
:Uh, my, my feeling around this ultimately is if
:they can feel confident in themselves, um, because we're
:all destined to fuck up our kids some way or the other.
:Mm-hmm.
:But ultimately the, for me, if we can make sure that no
:matter what, they feel that someone there loves them and
:is always there for them no matter what and loves them
:for who they are, they might not get everything they want,
:but they will get what they need, which is essentially
:a, a solid foundation of self-confidence and, um,
:self-awareness even hopefully.
:Yeah.
:Is also the, the ability to apologize.
:'Cause that was something that, I mean, I've screwed
:up quite a few times.
:I, I find that often in the mornings, yeah, I'm
:struggling in the mornings to get them both ready
:and out and everything.
:Um, and I think sometimes when I'm in that position I
:just apolo I do apologize, which I, I'm not sure my
:parents did that often.
:You know, they didn't, if they did screw up, um, yeah.
:Well, it's, I think it's about being human and
:letting them know that we are human as well.
:'cause then they don't feel like a, we're on this massive
:pedestal and though everything that we say is gospel.
:Um.
:Yeah,
:I think there's an element of love, respect, but
:also them to realize that it's okay to get it wrong.
:Because if they don't think that it's okay to get it
:wrong, you know, the classic thing you won't learn.
:I'm conscious of time and then Laurence needs to go
:and pick up his son to be a, a responsible father.
:Um, is there anything that's happening in that you'd like
:to point people towards?
:If people wanna get to know you, where
:would you like to go?
:To the best place?
:Well, if they could, I would love it if they
:could go on Amazon and they'll, they'll see a,
:an array of books there.
:Um, they can pre-order one of my books, um,
:which is out in August.
:That would be fab, um.
:Nice.
:It's a big quit.
:If they wanna just have a bit of a laugh, then I would
:say, go on my Instagram, which is just at Anniki
:Sommerville, all one word.
:Um, because basically you can just watch a woman
:in wigs tending to be different on WhatsApp.
:Brilliant.
:I think that's, that's probably, it's a
:bit of light relief.
:I mean, that's something we didn't touch on, but
:that is very important too sometimes is not to take
:ourselves too seriously.
:Well, if we can't laugh of half, uh, half of the things
:that we have to experience, particularly as parents and
:the challenges we have to face and doing the Work Parenthood
:balance, um, yeah, it's just, it gets desperate then.
:Uh, so, well, thank you very much Anniki.
:Uh, if anyone listening to this is curious
:about, Anikki's work, the links are in the chat.
:Being amongst other people who are navigating this
:whole thing as well.
:Um, to feel connected, I think is the other thing
:we want to, to create with this conversation.
:Awesome.
:Thanks Nikki.
:Thanks everyone.
:Until next time.
:See you everyone.
:You take care.
:Thank you.
