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Episode 111

Feck Perfuction, with James Victore

To cultivate creativity and authenticity, we have to be be willing to take risks and face the fear of rejection.

James Victore is a designer and author whose podcast and course help people cultivate creativity and courage. He believes in authenticity, self-awareness, and the importance of understanding one's creative voice in order to put meaningful work out into the world.

He encourages people to find their own voice and to not let self-doubt or negative opinions hold them back. He joins Laurence and Carlos on the Friday Fireside to discuss how being true to oneself and following through on creative ideas leads to success and fulfilment.

Links

Transcript
Laurence:

As far as you know, there's no James Victore tribute act out there who's also hoping to make money out of being James Victore.

James:

I haven't heard anything yet.

Carlos:

Someone at our Summercamp, this event that we run, annually, talked about the motherfucker effect and, and this whole drop the mic kind of boom, this is me.

Carlos:

And I think it takes balls, uh, or, uh, courage, if you don't have balls.

Carlos:

Uh, strength, some real conviction and clarity.

Carlos:

And that's why I'm hoping through this conversation, we're gonna help people cultivate that.

James:

When you say that, my only, my only cringe is it better be fucking real.

James:

You better not be just posing because that's bullshit.

James:

You got to follow through.

Carlos:

Exactly, exactly.

Carlos:

And, um, uh, that speaks for me, speaks to this idea of authenticity and that coming from a place of real, well, my eyes, self awareness.

Carlos:

You know why you're doing it because you know who you are.

Carlos:

I think one of the things that things that struck me, even the way you describe yourself as, as helping people do work they love and get paid for it.

Carlos:

Yeah, it takes a, um, clarity about who you are and what you can bring to the world.

Carlos:

And so, I was curious about your journey to that clarity.

Carlos:

What is it that you helped you understand, actually, this is me, and this is what I do, and this is why I do it?

James:

Um, you know, uh, Carlos, I got very, I got lucky very early.

James:

And lucky, by lucky, I mean I, I'm an action guy.

James:

I do shit, right?

James:

I don't wait.

James:

And early in my, we'll call it a career, you know, back when I was kind of just starting out, I always just drew on everything.

James:

I always got in trouble for drawing on things and painting.

James:

I draw on, you know, my, myself, I draw on everything.

James:

And when I was a kid, I drew on my jeans.

James:

But, um, when I moved to New York to go to art school, I had to have a, I had to have a job, a couple jobs.

James:

And the first time I had it was in a ski shop because I was a skier.

James:

I was a National Ski Patrol.

James:

My dad had ski shop.

James:

Um, and it was a big ski shop and they had these little post it notes with the logo on it.

James:

And I used to just on like off times.

James:

I used to just like, hang out in the shop and I would like, just draw on them, do little cartoons and funny little things and I'd stick them up places.

James:

And people really responded to them, people collected them, kept them.

James:

That was the time when I was going to art school and working at the ski shop at the same time.

James:

So that was tough.

James:

But then art school kicked me out and I was like, oh, shit, I gotta get her a, a J O B.

James:

A couple years, a coup, like a year or whatever later I was, I was capable of getting a, a real J O B, a real job in a publishing house.

James:

Big publishing house in New York, Simon and Schuster.

James:

And I did kept doing the same thing, putting little signs everywhere.

James:

And to this day, there are people who have framed in their, like these little post it notes in their house.

James:

So I was like getting early on.

James:

I was getting the feedback that what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it in my sense of humor, dark or whatever, had resonance.

James:

when I started working as a designer, I started making book jackets.

James:

I, of course, completely forgot that because I'm like, this is, this is work.

James:

This is, I'm supposed to be professional, you know?

James:

I'm supposed to make books look like books.

James:

Which is now what I call making the obvious look obviouser.

James:

It's like, how do I lend an air of mediocrity to this project, right?

James:

So I got lucky early on that I just was putting my voice out in different forms.

James:

And the way a designer does, which is you put it out and you don't have to stand, it's like, I'm not a busker, I'm not singing on the corner, I'm not a stand up comedian right in front of people.

James:

I'm like, I put it up and I walk away, or I publish a book and it gets put out all over the place and I don't have to be there.

James:

But I got to, the way I realized there was some, um, possibility of getting paid to be James Victore, early on.

James:

And then I started making posters and the posters started blowing up and appearing all around the world and getting into museums and I'm like, oh, okay, man, this is something real.

James:

So now I'm trying to keep that I'm kind of trying to maintain that, and I'm trying to help other people get there, get that feeling, understand that apply it out in their lives take that level of courage.

James:

You know, I was on stage in Barcelona just a month ago, a month and a half ago, and I used the word encouragement.

James:

I want to encourage people.

James:

And I was like, it hit me on stage.

James:

I'm like, oh my god, the root of encouragement is courage, with a, with a prefix and a suffix.

James:

I was like, it would, it, I'm a boob.

James:

It never hit me before.

James:

I'm like, yeah, we need that.

James:

For me, I was just, I was young and I was stupid.

James:

That, that, that, that, that's a, a different form of courage.

Carlos:

That's a courage through obliviousness.

James:

yeah, yeah.

James:

And there's a level of flippancy too.

James:

I was just trying to be funny.

James:

I wasn't, it wasn't real.

James:

It wasn't for the money.

James:

So it was easier.

James:

Sorry.

Laurence:

No, no, I just, it was a quest, question about that early design part of your career, whether you felt like you played it safe early on in those early days designing book chapters.

James:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

James:

To the point where I, when I first, when I first failed out of or got kicked out of university and first started doing book jackets, I was making book jackets look like book jackets.

James:

I was playing it safe, and here's the devil.

James:

It paid well.

James:

I bought, I was wearing silk suits.

James:

I bought my first motorcycle cash.

James:

And then after like two years to three years of being in publishing and making, you know, getting a little bit of a name and working for all the big New York publishers, I said, you know, I have my own way of seeing my own sense of style, my own sense of design, my own sense of color, of timing, of humor.

James:

And I started putting that in my work.

James:

And my work dropped off.

James:

Clients weren't interested.

James:

So I had to do the only sane thing, which was I had to say, fuck you, and I had to go look for my clients.

James:

The clients that I would work with.

James:

And then I started making seminal work.

James:

Then I started making the, the, the, the good, what I think of as the good or meaningful or important work of mine.

Laurence:

And then they found you.

James:

Uh, and then they came, then, then what happens is it comes back around again.

James:

Then, then all of a sudden like Yoji Yamamoto finds you and Electro Records finds you and you know, like a MailChimp and Sony and that kind of stuff.

James:

When you start, you know, when you start saying, this is me.

Carlos:

I heard at the beginning this idea of feedback.

Carlos:

Feedback from the world, particularly when you're saying you're putting the post it notes everywhere and people were liking them, enjoying them, or you were getting some kind of response or reaction.

James:

Response.

James:

Let's just say that.

James:

It's neither good nor bad.

James:

Let's just say response.

Carlos:

Which entails putting stuff in the world in order to get a response.

Carlos:

And what I heard you say before was, like Laurence called it, naivety, obliviousness, youthful enthusiasm, you were happy to put stuff into the world.

Carlos:

It didn't really matter, it seemed to you, what response you got.

Carlos:

And then you talked about courage and encouragement.

Carlos:

And so for those who know that cognitively, you know, you're not going to get feedback unless you get the idea out of your head, but for some reason, it just stops.

Carlos:

Don't.

Laurence:

Someone who isn't an action guy.

Carlos:

Yeah, any thoughts around, or have you had experience of helping and encouraging someone?

James:

Oh, that's, yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's all we do is deal with that all the time.

James:

It's just dealing with, it's dealing with the fear.

James:

You know, here's the thing.

James:

The first line of Feck Perfuction says that we're all born wildly creative, but some of us forgot, And those of us who have not forgotten, we are capable, we're still wildly creative.

James:

We wake up every morning and go, you know what I'm really good at with with with my camera.

James:

Or I'm really good with the camera on my phone.

James:

I bet I could make a living.

James:

I bet I I'm gonna go just I like photographing doesn't matter.

James:

Dogs, flowers, doesn't matter.

James:

I'm gonna do this thing.

James:

And then the second thought is, is it any good?

James:

Will they like it?

James:

What do I charge?

James:

How do I get it?

James:

Will they like me?

James:

All those, all the self doubt.

James:

And the self doubt comes from all those pre recorded voices in our life.

James:

All the prerecorded voices, the teacher that told you, yeah, you know, there's no money in it.

James:

The parents who didn't support it.

James:

The uncle who said you can't make a living writing poems, right?

James:

All these, all these lies, lies.

James:

There's zero reason you can't make it.

James:

Well, no, there's one reason, your fear, you can't get over that.

James:

You can't get over that hump and getting over that hump is just action.

James:

It's just practice.

James:

It's just do it.

James:

There's going to be resistance.

James:

We've got a podcast, a weekly podcast that we do.

James:

We're recording one tomorrow and, um, the question is from a, from a friend of mine, and he just lost his job.

James:

And he said, you know, he said, how do you know, how do you, how do you regain confidence when life is so uncertain?

James:

And I'm, and I'm, I'm answering the question and, and I'm like, I, I say, you know, this thing about life being uncertain, it is.

James:

So just fucking accept that.

James:

It is uncertain.

James:

The, the, your future will be written when you fucking write it.

James:

You know, you create the future.

James:

You don't want uncertainty?

James:

Create it.

James:

Create what you want.

James:

there's going to be resistance.

James:

There's going to be your own resistance through fear.

James:

Or when you start doing that, the first line of resistance is your friends and family saying, you know, Oh, I see you're doing that now.

James:

And it's because they're not doing it.

James:

It's because they're incapable of getting over that hump.

James:

It's because your boldness, your audacity threatens them.

James:

So you got to not listen and just move on.

James:

We got to move.

James:

We got to move, got to do that thing and you're going to get good at it.

James:

I don't get resistance anymore.

James:

I don't really get haters, and it's because one, people expect something different from me, and two, I'm probably not pushing hard enough.

Carlos:

Is that interesting thing, um, around the fear of being rejected or hated, um.

James:

Who cares?

Carlos:

well, this is, yeah, because on one hand you, you know, it sounded like with the Simon Schuster job and the, the bland book covers, it made money.

Carlos:

And so on, in a sense, it creates a sense of safety and security because, oh, I've got money in the bank.

Carlos:

Um, and I'm, I'm alluding to a question that, uh, a friend of ours, Lana was asking around how do you balance the love of what you do versus a secure, safe corporate job?

Carlos:

And so there's this idea of safety, and there's this need to essentially allow to birth whatever is birthing inside you, which is tinged with a sense of vulnerability and fear because that may be rejected or hated.

James:

There's a couple different ways to approach this.

James:

One, the way you presented it sounds like, two boats, creativity and what you were born to do, comfort and security.

James:

Okay, you got a foot on both boats.

James:

What do you think is gonna fucking happen?

James:

You're gonna get wet.

James:

You're gonna fucking fail.

James:

If you have a, I've got a fallback plan, you're screwed because you will go to that fallback plan because you will always seek comfort and security.

James:

That's the trap.

James:

Comfort and security will kill you because if you choose it, you will constantly, every year, you will wake up and go, ah, yeah, or you're going to look on your social media and go, Oh, yeah, these people are doing it.

James:

I do that.

James:

I looked at my friend Brian Ray today.

James:

He's got a new book out.

James:

I'm like, Oh, bitch, really?

James:

You just, you just keep going.

James:

You just keep, you know?

James:

yeah, the comfort and security is a trap.

James:

That's the thing.

James:

And we're, and we're, and talk about the cliche of like ugly buildings or shitty restaurants or whatever, the cliche the mediocrity, that is a cliche that is one of those ugly mediocre Aspirations that we're supposed to want

Carlos:

But there's something here around being scared that some people might reject you or hate you, that threatens your sense of security.

Carlos:

And yeah, so, and there's things like,

James:

They will, but so what?

James:

That's the purpose.

James:

That's their purpose.

James:

It's a test.

James:

It's a test of how much you want it.

James:

That's okay.

Laurence:

That's what I was going to mention, you talked a lot about this in the book.

Laurence:

This, I don't want to call it sacrifice, but ultimately what are you willing to compromise on, right?

Laurence:

If you want to commit to a path, a creative path, what are you willing to, what compass are you willing to let go of?

James:

So, so, so J.

James:

K.

James:

Rowling, you know, Harry Potter.

James:

When the first book came out, she was in an interview and they said, Miss Rowling, when you wrote Harry Potter, first of all, it took her like, you know, years to, to, to, to, to write it and then to get it published.

James:

They said, they said, when you were writing Harry Potter, you were a single mom.

James:

How did you, how did you do that?

James:

And she said, we lived in squalor.

James:

And that's the fucking price.

James:

For some people, that's the price.

James:

And if you can understand that, If you can modify your life, even if you can get rid of your creature comforts, because you can't have both.

James:

I have whittled my life down to something very simple, and I'm just trying to be able to just focus on spreading the love, just focus on helping people, just focus on my podcast and the course that we have available and just do a really good job and just making, just making notes on and, and, and doing some jottings on a new book.

James:

Like, I'm trying to simplify my life so I can pay attention to my wife and my kids.

James:

I don't want, I don't need a lot of comfort and security.

James:

You know, I don't live in squalor yet, but you know, how much do you want it?

James:

It's all, it's all a test and it's okay.

Laurence:

There's also something you said in the book, which I totally resonate with, which I would argue I say quite a lot, which I think for those people that go through a lot of this, it's almost like a binary choice, right?

Laurence:

Either I'm the responsible adult and I look after my kids and provide or I go down this selfish creative route, which is all about me.

Laurence:

I think one thing you alluded to in the book was this idea that actually, you being happy, fulfilled, creative.

Laurence:

What's that like?

Laurence:

What's the ripple effects of that to the people around you?

Laurence:

What is that?

Laurence:

What's the cost of not doing that?

James:

The last thing you want to be is responsible and reasonable.

James:

The last thing you want to be is, uh, is one of those adults, really.

James:

I'm I take care of my kids.

James:

I'm a fucking good father.

James:

I'm a good supporter, and I had this other stuff.

James:

It's the thing is, the thing is, is like, we make a certain amount of money doing our safety in our safety with our safety features on right?

James:

And comfort.

James:

if we really, truly gave our creativity a shot, it could pay.

James:

It can and will pay its way.

James:

That's what it's for.

James:

That's why it's in us.

James:

Not so we can paint on the weekends and not show them to anybody.

James:

We can, even in our responsible adult life, we can start looking at our life, looking at our schedule, looking at, looking at our time and start planning it out and say, you know what, universe?

James:

You know what, James, you know what, universe, you know what, Shannon, you know what, you know, children, I am going to start devoting an hour a day.

James:

You're going to get up an hour, going to go up in that room, leave me alone.

James:

I'm doing this, you know, like, start.

James:

Start paying attention to your creativity.

James:

Start letting it evolve.

James:

Start putting it out into the world.

James:

Is it gonna, most of us, the problem is we want things in a week.

James:

I know that I've been through so many projects where I'm like, I have it done.

James:

I put out a post, nothing happened.

James:

I guess I'll go do something else, right?

James:

We have to keep.

James:

You got to keep going.

James:

You know, when, when Feck Perfuction came out, my book editor said, she said, you know, the numbers say that people have to see the cover seven times before they buy it.

James:

And I'm like, what kind of craziness is that?

James:

But you know, the, the, the, the, the bean counters, you know, they count, they count those things and they figure out what, what it takes for, for, for human beings to act on something.

James:

You know, so when we send out newsletters, my, you know, I get unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsubscribe all the time.

James:

But, you know, I'm like, I'm like, whatever.

James:

I don't need you.

James:

You're not my audience, obviously.

James:

I'm not going to care.

James:

You know, most people are like, oh, there are people who are unsubscribing.

James:

What's happening?

James:

People are unsubscribing because you're doing your job.

James:

You know, the first email they don't, they didn't see.

James:

The second email, um, they read and forgot about.

James:

This third email, you know, uh, got into spam.

James:

The fourth, you know, like, you've got to keep, we have to keep going and we have to risk not being liked or being annoying or being whatever.

James:

That's part of the process.

Carlos:

I sense there's an upside to this, of course, to not being liked by some people.

James:

It's all upside, baby.

James:

It's all upside.

Carlos:

Loved by others.

James:

That's the thing.

James:

It's like we don't, we don't concern ourselves with the other side.

James:

Yeah, it's like, it's like, but I might fail.

James:

If you keep bringing that up, you will fail.

James:

If you keep relying on that, you will fail.

Laurence:

It feels to me like you've got this kind of like flatlining.

Laurence:

You doing the, and I'm guilty of this in my early career as well, like doing vanilla kind of work just to appease people, but you don't get the kind of extreme, um, reactions, good or bad.

James:

Correct.

Laurence:

Versus like, putting your heart on the line and going, actually, this is me, and there's collateral damage, i.

Laurence:

e.

Laurence:

some people fall off, but then the ones that love you, really love you for who you are.

James:

Yes, and, and what happens is you will, um, steadily build that love, that audience.

James:

That's that's how it works.

James:

Um, and the way you build an audience is by is by sharing your voice, is by having an opinion.

James:

And the way you craft that audience is that some of them are going to fall off and that's fine.

James:

We can't concern ourselves with that.

James:

They don't really hate us.

James:

We're just not we challenge them.

James:

I mean, part of my gig.

James:

Is that I challenge people and a lot of people don't want to be challenging like, okay, keep your crappy job.

James:

I don't care

Carlos:

So on the the topic of challenge then, um, I have a question for you that is Uh, maybe a little bit of a challenge and see, see how we can we can we can answer this question.

Carlos:

is decrying comfort and security a privileged position?

Carlos:

One that may be less available to those whose society considered to be outside the mainstream.

James:

No, no, again, how much do you want it?

James:

There are countries where commercial design is under, You know, uh, under budgeted under served, where the only potential is to work in shitty advertising agencies.

James:

There are, there are those.

James:

It is hard.

James:

It is harder in other places.

James:

Yes.

James:

In, in the states.

James:

Is it easier?

James:

Yes.

James:

But all I'm talking about is human nature.

James:

That's our drive.

James:

That's our drive.

James:

You can follow through on it or you can not.

James:

Yeah, I got a, I got someone who wrote in.

James:

We had a long conversation back and forth through Facebook.

James:

I think it was who, who called me out about the privilege thing.

James:

And I'm like, yeah, I know it's really difficult in some places.

James:

It is.

James:

I remember, I remember I saw a show, um, I was judging a competition in that.

James:

In Switzerland or something.

James:

And there was a, there were a couple of small posters, you know, the Swiss, they make these huge frickin, you know, and the French and they're like them huge things.

James:

And there were a couple of small little pieces and the judges were like, well, it's not really a poster.

James:

It's not really of size.

James:

And, you know, and I was like, dude, do you know where this is from?

James:

This is a central American country.

James:

Fuck you!

James:

Judge the content.

James:

Judge the words.

James:

Judge the ideas.

James:

Don't be a snob.

James:

They're getting the word out by any means necessary.

Carlos:

There's an element of commitment, commitment to the work, commitment to the practice, always turning up.

Carlos:

And then also, I think, seeking others.

Carlos:

I think you said something around, who are your medicine, who can hold you, or who aren't the haters, who are maybe the collaborators or the cheerleaders that can keep you on that path, even though it's hard.

Carlos:

And I was wondering, you know, for us, very much, the heart of our work is community.

Carlos:

And I was curious about how that played into your thoughts and ideas of following these kind of very creative alternative paths.

James:

Yeah, it's really difficult to do it alone, nay impossible do it alone, especially, you know, if you are in Saskatchewan or you're like in, you know, British Columbia, or if you're, you know, someplace besides New York or LA, right?

James:

Mentors and the people you look up to, reach out to them, ask questions, be curious.

James:

People like that.

James:

People want that.

James:

People like, oh, wow, that's really sweet of you.

James:

You might reach a jerk who doesn't answer or who doesn't, you know, who answers and says wa wa wa wa wa wa wa.

James:

It's fine.

James:

Even if people write me, like, if I don't respond, That's because I'm busy.

James:

That's it.

James:

Don't take it personal.

Laurence:

They just need six more, six more emails.

James:

Um, yeah, keep going.

Carlos:

I think it's important to say, like, just don't take it personally.

Carlos:

Like you said, something else might be going on at the other end.

James:

What is the expression?

James:

We're all walking each other home.

James:

Right?

James:

You know, when I was just starting out as a, as a designer, I worked out of this studio in, um, in Carnegie Hall and downstairs from Carnegie Hall was this little pub was a little like a Blarney stone, a real local real locals place in midtown Manhattan, but it real locals place.

James:

And I would go there and drink in the afternoons.

James:

And, um, the guys who drank there were all like, um, cops, off duty cops and sanitation workers, because it was like four o'clock was like when their shift changed or something.

James:

So it was cops and sanitation workers in this tiny little bar.

James:

These guys were geniuses.

James:

They were politically astute, culturally hip, bitingly funny, and I thought, God damn, these guys could be, any one of them could be Seinfeld or could be a designer, or could be a, uh, Tom Wolf.

James:

And if you ask them, hey, you know, you're pretty funny, I think you should be on stage, I think you should, I think you should write these, write these things down that you say, I think that they go, Ah, nah, not me, nah, it's just something I do, it's a, you know, I can't do it around the wife, you know, ha ha ha.

James:

You know, we just like shit on our gift.

Carlos:

That reminds me, this morning, Claire Perry Louise, she runs a sister community, I like to call them, called Like Hearted Leaders.

Carlos:

Uh, a little exercise that she got us to do was around bragging.

James:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Spend some time bragging about yourself.

Carlos:

And having, you know, being in the UK, that isn't something that comes naturally to many British people.

James:

No, you guys don't like that.

Carlos:

And so there's something important here around, for personally, as well as...

Carlos:

In terms of publicity that I'm hearing in terms of like, why, why shoot on yourself?

James:

Who do you, who do you, who do you think you are?

Laurence:

Yeah.

James:

How dare you?

James:

Upstart.

Laurence:

Is that your best King Charles accent?

James:

This is my, this is my, my Downton Abbey, uh, influence.

James:

That's excellent.

James:

Yeah, get people to brag.

James:

Um, um, yeah, I do that too with the, when I have coaching clients, I, you gotta you gotta practice this.

James:

You gotta practice this.

James:

It's not a bad thing.

James:

It's just saying, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm pretty good.

James:

So what I do is I'm, I'm no different than Napoleon Hill or, or Emerson or Rumi, right?

James:

I mean, we all have the same, the same ideas.

James:

I just make them funny.

James:

So it goes like this.

James:

Do you know why James Victore is a sexy motherfucker?

James:

Because I say so.

James:

That's it.

James:

And because I say so, all of a sudden, other people start believing that.

James:

But unless you believe it, it ain't gonna happen.

James:

So we need to start practicing those things.

James:

And you know, of course that I'm like jumping off the bragging bridge right there, right?

James:

I mean, you know, that's a big one, but we have to start doing that.

James:

I used to have this, I got this friend, uh, Josh Davis.

James:

Um, and we would go to, uh, we get invited to these parties that are like the, uh, entrepreneurs from like Shopify and the 99U and Adobe and all these like, you know, all these kind of famous people, Brene Brown, that kind of shit would, you know, all these people would be there.

James:

And Josh would be, was able to walk up into it like just a group of people talking, you know, there's just a group of people talking and Josh would go up, go walk into the crowd and go, Hey, I'm Josh Davis.

James:

I'm kind of a big deal.

James:

And I'm like, wow, I can't do that.

James:

I'm like, I like walk in.

James:

I get an elbow in and I'm like, um.

James:

Hi.

James:

Hi, I'm James.

James:

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Carlos:

The question that springs to mind around that is, am I allowed to take up space wow.

James:

Really?

James:

That's a question?

James:

Wow, of course, that's what you're here for.

James:

You're doing it already.

James:

You know, I didn't have a rough upbringing, but my father was pretty tough, you know?

James:

Uh, and I remember because I've got like little kids in school now and I remember my father always telling me, he says, you know what you're taking up in school?

James:

Time and space, right?

James:

Like I was a nobody.

James:

But to have that question, are you allowed?

James:

Yeah, yeah.

James:

And you got it.

James:

But here you got to ask yourself the more important question.

James:

Again, those pre recorded voices.

James:

Yeah.

James:

think it was Jung, Carl Jung who said unless we make our subconscious conscious, it will direct our lives.

James:

And we will call it fate.

James:

Meaning, unless we check those pre recorded voices, the bullshit, the lies, you know, my dad, those fucking teachers in those shitty, mediocre schools.

James:

Unless I take those subconscious thoughts that say you're no good, you'll never make it, you don't deserve to have money.

James:

We didn't have money, why do you have money, right?

James:

Unless I can make them conscious and go, I see you, what the fuck do you want?

James:

Why are you here?

James:

Why are you keeping me small?

James:

I don't need this.

James:

Go, right?

James:

And see them as that fragile little bird that they are.

James:

So they don't direct our lives.

James:

Nobody should ever have that question, Do I deserve to take up space?

James:

Nobody should ever have that.

Carlos:

It's interesting that it's these subconscious voices or these, these hidden behaviors and sometimes they are hidden to us.

James:

Yeah, they're, they're, they're deep and they're, they're very hidden.

Carlos:

And it's, it's then how you surface those and how you become aware of those.

Carlos:

And I'm, you know, it feels like the hard way is get out there, do shit, and you'll feel them straight away because they'll shout in your ear, don't do that.

Carlos:

Or you can, you can try and look for them.

Carlos:

And I'm curious in your own journey at what path you took.

Carlos:

Because we talk a lot about doing business from the inside out.

Carlos:

And part of that is understanding what you want to commit to, understanding what it is you want for yourself.

Carlos:

But also a certain part of that is then understanding what's getting in your way.

James:

Yeah, for me, you know, there's a push and pull.

James:

And the push is creativity.

James:

The push is, I have something to say.

James:

I say that all the time.

James:

I have something to say.

James:

Fucking listen to me.

James:

That's one of the first things I say when I get up on stage.

James:

Especially in someplace like Barcelona where there's all these big agencies and they're, they're touting all their interesting work and their new AI and all this stuff and I get up there and I wait till it's super quiet and I stand in the middle of stage and I say, I have something to say,

James:

So that's the push is I have got something to say.

James:

You know, my silly little scribble scribbles, you know, these drawings I make these are fucking important.

James:

That's the push.

James:

You know, the poll is, the, uh, is, is, is, who am I?

James:

The poll is like, is anybody gonna really, you know, the poll is, if they don't get, if it didn't, it didn't get, it only got 23 likes.

James:

Am I wrong?

James:

Am I bad?

James:

Was it stupid?

James:

Did I, should I stop?

James:

Should I, right?

James:

It's constant.

James:

It's constant, baby.

James:

And it's constant for everybody.

James:

I would hate to be someone like Elon Musk, right?

James:

Having to deal with that shit all the time or run for office.

James:

You gotta be an idiot to run for office.

Laurence:

Or sleep, sleeping in the office.

James:

Your job as a, as a candidate is to stand there and be able to take a pie in the face every fucking day and smile.

James:

Like, that didn't bother me.

James:

What a, or to be an actor.

James:

And having to like, having people write about you and say, you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're not pretty, you're ugly, you're this, you're that, you're not a good actor, you're.

James:

Like, fuck, like Keanu Reeves, I remember when people all about Keanu Reeves, he couldn't act and now he's like, he's the fucking guy, right?

James:

Not a great actor, but he's like a fucking human being.

James:

you know, it's like, it's, I was, I was on a podcast recently with this guy, uh, uh, Chris Doe, really amazing, wonderful guy.

James:

And he's, he said, he said, James, here's this funny thing about you.

James:

You're like one of those, he said, uh, uh, uh, uh, Russian stacking doll, right?

James:

You're a designer, and then you're an artist, and then you're a teacher and then you're a guru and then you're a psychologist, you know?

James:

And yeah, that's important because if we don't ask ourselves these questions, we don't get over those blocks, it's, it's, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna slow you down.

James:

If not stop you completely.

Laurence:

I've got another night for you.

Laurence:

Oliver Berkman on the podcast a couple of weeks ago.

Laurence:

You know, Alan Watts, the kind of 60s philosopher.

James:

Oh, yeah.

Laurence:

So you talked about Rumi and Napoleon Hill.

Laurence:

He called, uh, Alan Watts called himself a spiritual entertainer.

James:

That's good

Laurence:

There you go.

Laurence:

You can nick that one.

James:

Yeah.

James:

I'm a, yeah.

James:

What did somebody say about me?

James:

A stand up therapist.

James:

That's pretty good.

Laurence:

Stick that on LinkedIn.

James:

That's pretty good.

Carlos:

I think that, for me, hits the nail on the head in terms of it, it is trying to help people understand themselves in order for them to create what they want to create.

Carlos:

And the process that I'm hearing that you're inviting people to do through the act of creativity, through putting stuff into the world, seeing what comes back, and then there's a question here of having the resilience to keep going.

James:

Continuity.

James:

Continuing.

James:

Um, consistency.

James:

Yeah, that's where most people fall off.

James:

Even I.

James:

Even I.

James:

Oh, it didn't work.

James:

Let's do something else.

James:

Consistency.

James:

Consistency.

James:

Love, attention, and consistency.

James:

Those are the things.

James:

Love what you do so fucking much that you're not gonna listen to the fear.

James:

You're not gonna listen to the stupid ass haters of which they will, they will diminish.

James:

You know, so you love it so much that that's gonna, you know, um, um, push is gonna be stronger.

James:

it's like a fireman.

James:

A fireman rushes into a fucking burning building because he loves his job.

James:

It's not because he's afraid of fire.

James:

Like, he is afraid of fire, duh.

James:

But he got so good at understanding fire, the fear, that he can keep going.

James:

I'm gonna write that down, that was pretty good.

Laurence:

That, that was your motherfucking moment, I think.

Laurence:

That was fucking awesome.

Laurence:

That was the, that was it, that's the, that's the clip for Instagram, isn't it?

James:

Um, um, so, love, not like woo woo, airy fairy love, fuck that shit, no fucking rainbows or unicorns right now.

James:

I do love them, but not right now.

James:

Pay, and then attention, pay attention.

James:

Practice.

James:

Schedule.

James:

Discipline.

James:

An hour a day, more if you can, you know, my, I've got a super fucking tight, busy day today.

James:

And I'm like, I was talking to Shannon before she left and I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to go to the, and she's like, go to the gym, go to the gym.

James:

You need the gym.

James:

Okay.

James:

I'll go.

James:

Cause I was trying to get out of it, but it's good for my body.

James:

It gets from my brain.

James:

It gets the, you know, it gets the bad chemicals out.

James:

So attention.

James:

Pay attention.

James:

Do all those things you got to do.

James:

I got to learn a new program.

James:

Okay.

James:

You're not an idiot.

James:

You can learn it.

James:

Let's go.

James:

So love attention and everybody falls off with consistency.

James:

Keep going.

James:

Just keep going.

Carlos:

The word faith comes to mind when you say that.

James:

Sure.

Carlos:

Because we don't know, and for me that's the crux of faith, is that there's not a certainty, but there's a belief, which I think links for me to this question of safety and discomfort.

Carlos:

It's like, if we can accept that we can never predict, then that's also part of accepting that we'll never know if we're going to be safe.

James:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah.

James:

Be, be, be, you know, I found, I sound like another, another Buddhist, uh, Pema Chodron, right?

James:

Uh, be comfortable with uncertainty.

James:

That's the title of one of her book, you know, be comfortable with uncertainty.

Carlos:

And that's the, I think that, that for me, for many people, that's the crux.

Carlos:

Is the, it's so linked.

Carlos:

Certainty is so linked to safety.

James:

Yes,

Carlos:

And and removing this need for this feeling that we all need safety, but somehow some of us are able to feel safe despite the uncertainty.

James:

They have gotten comfortable with uncertainty.

James:

I have taken and will continue to take huge risks because I have faith in that what I'm doing is right, that I'm doing the best I can.

James:

I'm not trying to dupe anybody.

James:

I'm just trying to do good work, trying to be a good dad.

James:

Uh, and yes, I have to have massive amounts of faith so that, you know, we have to, we have to, we have to, we have to redirect our faith and take it off of our things and our, and our, and our comfortable sectional couch across from our big huge TV and put it in ourself, I rely on you, you know, all I need.

James:

It's all I need.

Laurence:

But with that, I'm guessing the cost of not doing it is worse than the cost of doing it

James:

for you.

James:

Well, the cost of not doing it is waking up and going, Am I allowed to take up space?

Laurence:

Hmm.

James:

And that question will continue if you don't move on it.

James:

It will continue.

James:

I don't give a fuck what kind of money you're making at your crappy job, right?

James:

Uh, it will continue.

James:

It will, it will, it will haunt you.

Carlos:

For some reason the question, like, am I winning?

Carlos:

Is bringing to mind and this idea of like I get to the end of life and winning means this and there's a definition that's created that maybe has been inherited.

Carlos:

And what I'm hearing you talk is like you have your own definition of winning, and that isn't winning at the end, it's winning right now.

James:

Yeah, today.

James:

Now.

James:

I mean, you know, I look at, I look at, there's a bunch of artists that I look at that I, you know, contemporaries.

James:

And I'm like, I try not to look at their work and go, oh god, god, he's just doing, pooping out another book, and he's got another series of paintings, and I'm like, oh, and I suck.

James:

That's just death.

James:

What is it?

James:

What is it?

James:

What did Eleanor Eleanor Roosevelt said?

James:

Right?

James:

Comparison is the thief of joy, right?

James:

Um, no, that's there.

James:

There's no winning.

James:

I'm not winning.

James:

I'm not winning.

James:

I just, I have to wake up and, I have to wake up every day and beat myself, that's it, you know, my, my, my, um, I got here, check this out,

James:

There's two, two times in the morning when I get up, 3.

James:

30 and 4.

James:

40, Wow, I set the clock for, there are some mornings that I wake up, but before I went to bed last night, I said, Darling, I've got to write this thing, and I've got to take care of this, and I've got to take care of this, and then I'm on a podcast, and then I'm at the gym, and then I've got a meeting after the gym, and then I've got to pick up the kids, so I'm going to be waking up very early tomorrow, so I'm going to go sleep in the guest room, so I don't wake you up.

James:

And I set a little coffee, I got my coffee ready the night before.

James:

And then when I slept alone, so my alarm can go off and at 440 by 5 o'clock, I'm sitting there going tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, typing and writing because that's my commitment.

James:

I, but do I want to get up at 440 in the morning?

James:

Do I want to sleep away from my wife?

James:

No.

Laurence:

Mm.

James:

I don't, but that's one of, one of the things that I need to do in order to get my work done, in order to be a good parent, in order to be a good.

James:

You know, my kids, I was, and, and because like by six 30 they're up.

James:

I got two little kids that are up.

James:

So that's actually only an hour and a half that I get.

Laurence:

So, how'd you correlate that because we I mean I find this all the time But like you say in the book like I think something like the number number one rule of business is fun Something like that.

Laurence:

Is that right?

James:

Yeah.

Laurence:

Which we've always said that one of our core values is this.

Laurence:

How do you correlate that with the 430 a.

Laurence:

m?

Laurence:

Struggle because that's part of this gig too, right?

Laurence:

So.

James:

You know, if, but when I get up, you know, it's the struggle is to not go back to bed.

James:

What's Marcus Aurelius's book called?

James:

Um, meditations, meditations.

James:

It's out of meditations.

James:

What do I, what was I, you know, when you wake up in the morning and you're like cozy in bed and the alarm went off at way too early.

James:

Um, the birds aren't even singing yet.

James:

It's like, why was I put here?

James:

Was I put here to be comfortable?

James:

In cozy bed was I put here to make work and put out words that move people's lives?

James:

That changed people's lives?

James:

And then Laurence, when I'm up and when I got my, and I got my coffee, so I got my, my nicey, nicey little comfort thing, and I brought up a little, uh, two little macaroons, so I could have like a little, like an.

James:

You know, I try to make it a nice place.

James:

And then what I do when I sit down is I have to play.

James:

I have to play.

James:

I had written, I'd spent, uh, two or three hours yesterday writing all this stuff, trying to, trying to write a simple newsletter and fill out, like, my, my story brand, and follow Donald Miller, and follow, like, what's, how Steve Jobs structures a story, and follow, you know, and, like, writing all that, and it was just work.

James:

Felt like work.

James:

And I woke up today, and I'm like, you know what?

James:

This is, that was bullshit.

James:

How do I play with it?

James:

How do I just say, you know what, this is who I am.

James:

Let's talk like this.

Carlos:

Mm-hmm.

James:

So, yes.

James:

Um, you don't want it to be a 5:00 AM struggle.

James:

You want it to, you wanna, you wanna wake up and have play.

Laurence:

But it goes back to what you said, just, it's like the Stephen Pressfield thing, right?

Laurence:

Just being a pro.

Laurence:

This is being a pro it feels like for you.

Carlos:

A big difference for me is, There's someone else telling you to wake up at 4:30 versus you telling someone else to wake up at 4:30.

James:

Yeah, that would suck.

Carlos:

And this is like, again, it's your choice, 4:30.

Carlos:

For some, it's 10am.

Carlos:

Because they're doing something else at 4:30.

James:

Well, maybe they're up too late, yeah.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

But there's something around, you have made a commitment.

Carlos:

And you have these constraints, I'll call them constraints, children, family life, other factors that you're trying.

Carlos:

You've painted this picture of success for you, and in order to create that picture, there are commitments you're making.

Carlos:

Which aren't necessarily painful, or hard, because they're your choice.

James:

Correct.

Carlos:

So there's something for me around, you know, when we say I'm going to take up space, it's me shaped space because this is how I'm going to do it and this is what I'm going to do it and whether it needs to be fun or easeful or a little bit of struggle, but ultimately you're committed to taking up that space.

James:

Yeah.

James:

You know, when I was, when I was writing, uh, Feck, I, uh, Nova wasn't born yet, Wyatt was really small.

James:

And I would go out on the porch to be out of the house.

James:

And I had a little camping coffee maker so I could have my little nicey thing and be comfortable and, but I would sit out on the porch in the dark with, you know, bugs going everywhere and birds aren't up yet and I'm writing and oh my God, the subconscious, those fucking voices were brutal.

James:

Brutal.

James:

Designers in New York.

James:

Who do you think you are?

James:

You're not a writer.

James:

You know, my father, like, are you gonna say that out loud?

James:

Really?

James:

In a book, you're gonna really, right?

James:

It was just crazy.

James:

So, you know, there are costs, there are there, there, there's a constant battle.

James:

There's a constant, you know, the subconscious wants to piss on your efforts.

James:

it's part of the game.

James:

It's part of the game.

James:

The whole thing's a game.

James:

And if it's not a fun game, then you lose.

James:

If you're concerned about winning, then you lose.

James:

If you want to be fun and flippant and, and, and put out groovy work and say, you know, it's hard for me to kind of sit back and go, yep, I'm James Victore.

James:

I did that.

James:

Yeah.

James:

Okay.

James:

Pretty good.

James:

Right?

James:

Like, you know, look at me, look at me, look at what I can do, you know?

James:

It's not always easy.

James:

You know, I'm not a big fan of publishing the F word and it's not actually the F word because it says underneath here in small letters.

James:

It says this is a test.

James:

So if it's the F word for you, then you failed.

Carlos:

Go feel yourself.

Carlos:

Um, I had this image of you on the porch, bugs around, tapping away, voices in the back of your head.

Carlos:

But then there was a clear voice that you were trying to put out there, which was yours.

James:

Me.

Carlos:

What thoughts would you give those who are still trying to find their own voice?

James:

Follow my podcast, buy my Born Creative course and, you know, see other, see, see other people struggling to get their voice.

James:

You know, it's like people say, how do I find my voice?

James:

I'm like, listen, it's not, you didn't leave it in a drawer.

James:

It's not in your other pants, you're just not listening to it.

James:

You're just not practiced at listening to it.

James:

You know when you were using it, it's just, it's, it's, it's when you were ignoring your mother's voice.

James:

You were born with it.

James:

It's your opinion.

James:

It's how you think and feel about things.

James:

It's how you see things, how you see the world.

James:

You know, even when I was a kid, I knew that I kind of saw things different.

James:

You know, my dad, my dad was in the military.

James:

I think I mentioned and, um, I would go to the, go to the base.

James:

They would, he would take me on the base and, uh, we'd go through the barracks or we'd go through, uh, um, you know, uh, uh, the officer's quarters and, and I would walk around going, I will never join the military because this place is ugly.

James:

These heavy metal wooden desks and the, or metal desks and these wooden ugly chairs and the shitty frames on very cool posters, but shitty frames.

James:

It's just like the whole place was like, ooh.

James:

You work here?

Laurence:

Where's the macaroons?

James:

Yeah.

Laurence:

So, final question, have you always been comfortable in your own skin?

James:

No, I'm not comfortable in my own skin right now, Laurence.

Laurence:

You seem like you are.

Laurence:

You're very good at it.

James:

Yeah, I know.

James:

That's, it's called, it's called courage and you don't need all the time.

James:

You don't walk around brave all the time.

James:

It comes in doses.

James:

That's all.

James:

Like you, you know, like people like, how do I have courage?

James:

Listen in, in, in 20 second spurts.

James:

In an hour long thing.

James:

You know, you've asked me a bunch of questions where I could totally coer and totally go, you know what?

James:

You're right.

James:

It's really fucking hard.

James:

That doesn't.

Laurence:

Take up too much space.

James:

I was asked, I was asked on stage ones at a university, so it makes sense.

James:

I gave this beautiful hour long talk.

James:

And then, you know, there was a question in the back, and it was this little girl, and she said, she said, you know, Mr.

James:

Victore, like, how is it that you're so confident?

James:

And I said, I'm not.

James:

But if I gave that same exact speech that I gave, lecture, in a less confident manner, I would be of no service to you.

James:

I believe everything I'm saying, I believe these things, but they all come with work.

Carlos:

You can't have courage if you're not scared.

James:

Yeah.

James:

Brave and scared shitless at the same time.

James:

Like, there's these 2 generals on the bat on the top of their horses on the on a hillside and they're gonna they're looking down at the battlefield.

James:

And they're gonna have to go in and they're gonna have to like, bring their troops down to the battlefield.

James:

And they're outnumbered, clearly.

James:

And this 1 general says, to his second.

James:

He says, Lieutenant, bring me my red vest.

James:

And the lieutenant takes off.

James:

The other general says, Sir, why do you, why do you ask for your red vest?

James:

He says, this way in case, in case I'm wounded in battle, my, my men won't see me bleeding and they'll follow me.

James:

And the other general looks to his aide and he says, Lieutenant, bring me my brown pants.

Laurence:

You can't follow that.

Carlos:

Thank you so much, James.

Carlos:

Really grateful for your energy, your wisdom, your spiritual entertainment.

Carlos:

I have a final question for you, but before that, Laurence, um, what are you taking away from this conversation?

Laurence:

That we can all pretend to be who you want to be.

Laurence:

I think you said that in the book and I took that from it.

Laurence:

Um, and I think the main thing is just having something to say, like we've all got something to say and just go say it.

Carlos:

So, uh, this is a question for the Insta posts.

Carlos:

Um, I'd love to hear from you, James, three things that you believe to be true, just veritable truths of life for you.

James:

Um, that I'm really fucking good at what I do, and I enjoy it.

James:

that people do want to, hear from me.

James:

That's hard to understand that there is an audience.

James:

And that I am completely capable of helping people do whatever they want.

James:

I've helped people, you know, literally make more money, get better jobs, become more creative.

James:

I've done that.

James:

It's really hard for me to brag on those points, especially the money point, you know.

James:

But I'm really good at that stuff.

James:

And I, if I cower from that, then I'm of no use to anybody, not even my children.

Carlos:

Well, we will be sharing links to your work, your podcast.

James:

I want to highly suggest people sign up for The Right Questions, our weekly podcast.

James:

Super important.

Carlos:

I have valued very much the.

Carlos:

Vulnerability and confidence that you've been sharing today.

Carlos:

And I'm hoping it's, uh, an inspiration, uh, an encouragement for those listening to have the courage to do and be, and take up the space.

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