Episode 152
Finding your second wind
You’ve exited your business or you’ve left your job. What next?
You’ve gone from being busy and feeling like you had direction to now floating around aimlessly.
This is what our guest David Spinks calls the Abyss. In his Substack post, he shared his experience of stepping down from the company that he co-founded and trying to work out what’s next.
In this conversation with David, you’ll hear about his experience of the abyss, what he felt, what he did, and where he's at now. He shares how he navigated the inner journey, which helped him understand how he got to where he got to and what he needs to do differently.
Whether you're still floating in the middle of the ocean or have caught a glimpse of the shoreline, this episode will give you some compass headings and the courage to keep on swimming.
Links
Transcript
We are honored to have David Spinx to join us.
Speaker:I invited Dave.
Speaker:I invited Dave because of, uh, this post that he shared about
Speaker:his journey and, and, and what it means to navigate transitions.
Speaker:I'm curious to find out more or furious to find out that story because the
Speaker:people who we work with a lot, are trying to, whether they call reinvent
Speaker:themselves, start something new, maybe change how they do things, whether
Speaker:they run businesses, or whether they're actually thinking about how
Speaker:to be differently in business and be in their work and what that means.
Speaker:And, and I'm hoping this conversation will shed some, give you some thoughts
Speaker:and ideas, some reflection points to maybe help you along that trip.
Speaker:But before we kick off, uh, in good old Friday fireside tradition, uh,
Speaker:I would love for you, David, uh, for those who have, uh, who are listening
Speaker:here, who aren't familiar with your work, to maybe just give us, um.
Speaker:a little potted history, however you feel that, that that can be best
Speaker:communicated of where, what the work you've done before and, uh, maybe the
Speaker:work that you are looking to do now.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker:yeah, my story, um, my parents are both immigrants from Israel and Ireland.
Speaker:I was born in the US a year after they moved to the us.
Speaker:And so they came without much of a community, no community, no income.
Speaker:You know, true bootstraps, hustle, entrepreneur story in both, in
Speaker:both work and income, and also in social connection and community.
Speaker:So they had to integrate into a new culture and a new community
Speaker:and find belonging and connection.
Speaker:And so they really wanted that for their kids too.
Speaker:And so I grew up, um, through nurture and nature, having a very strong need
Speaker:for social connection and community, and also really craving success
Speaker:and admiration and appreciation.
Speaker:I, I, I earned a lot of love by being successful and achieving a lot and
Speaker:being smart and winning at sports.
Speaker:And, um, and so that became a, a big part of my ego structure.
Speaker:And then as I entered into my career, uh, right as social media was coming
Speaker:into the zeitgeist, those two pillars of my identity just like merged.
Speaker:And I found a career building community before that was really a career.
Speaker:Um, I became really good at connecting with people at building community.
Speaker:I was a hustler and wanted to be successful and be, be a big
Speaker:entrepreneur and develop reputation.
Speaker:I've always had a, a big heart and have been sensitive as well and wanting to
Speaker:have a lot of impact and help people.
Speaker:So that turned into my career, which is what I did for the last 15 years.
Speaker:I built multiple startups.
Speaker:Always with a community focus.
Speaker:I led community for various different businesses.
Speaker:And then I co-founded a company called CMX, which is a community for
Speaker:community professionals because like I said, it wasn't really a profession
Speaker:at the time, not an established one.
Speaker:And so we built CMX as a conference training, research, online community,
Speaker:local meetups all over the world for people who are building community
Speaker:for a living, to provide them with structure support, community education.
Speaker:And that company was acquired after five years.
Speaker:I stayed with the acquiring company, which is a company called Bevy
Speaker:Community Software, uh, for three years.
Speaker:And then I stepped down from that company two years ago into my abyss.
Speaker:And at that point, um.
Speaker:I had 15 years, um, well, let's, we'll say 13 years at that point of
Speaker:hustling, of working really hard to achieve, to get reputation, to be
Speaker:successful, to generate the wealth that I felt my family lacked growing up.
Speaker:And, um, I pushed myself.
Speaker:I pushed and pushed and pushed and I struggled.
Speaker:I suffered.
Speaker:I would wake up every day with this intense weight on my
Speaker:chest and shortness of breath.
Speaker:And, and then I would go through the cycle every day of working to
Speaker:avoid really sitting with where that, that suffering was coming from.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Work was how I numbed work was how I avoided.
Speaker:And, at that point, when I stepped down, I wasn't burned out.
Speaker:Um, I had been burned out before.
Speaker:I know what being burned out feels like.
Speaker:I had control of my time.
Speaker:I had my first kid, so that really helped me create
Speaker:boundaries around my time.
Speaker:I was still working hard, but things were in control.
Speaker:I was doing good work, but I just felt empty.
Speaker:Or what I would describe as hollowed out, it was like there was like
Speaker:this hole in my being, this like misalignment somewhere that I
Speaker:could not have named at the time.
Speaker:And, um, it was really scary to step down.
Speaker:My identity was so deeply tied to being the founder of CMX
Speaker:and leading that community and being this community leader.
Speaker:I published the book, like really entrenched myself.
Speaker:Like some would say reach the peak of this industry, and then it felt
Speaker:like I was just throwing it all away.
Speaker:But there was just something deep within me that, um, I. I knew
Speaker:it was time, you know, and there were practical reasons I reached
Speaker:my vesting period with a company.
Speaker:It was always gonna be a point of decision, but they wanted me to stay.
Speaker:I was getting paid really well.
Speaker:We got pregnant with our second kid.
Speaker:There was like a lot of reasons to just keep getting the income
Speaker:and just stay this course.
Speaker:But there was just something within me that knew I needed to let it
Speaker:go, like ship off into the sea and just see what would unfold.
Speaker:And that's the journey I've been on for the last two years.
Speaker:the first thing I wanted to maybe just, um, pick up on is the difference
Speaker:between burnt out and hollowed out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think what comes to mind is if I'm burned out, it feels very physical.
Speaker:I'm tired.
Speaker:I can't think straight.
Speaker:It's like very mental and it's very physical.
Speaker:It's kind of like this surface level in a way.
Speaker:Um, I'm overwhelmed.
Speaker:I'm overthinking.
Speaker:My brain just will never stop going.
Speaker:There's always too much work to do and I can't keep up with it.
Speaker:It's just this really intense sense of overwhelm and just continuing to push
Speaker:through it over and over and over and over again every day until you burn out.
Speaker:It's like an engine that overheated, That's, that's what
Speaker:burned out feels like to me.
Speaker:Hollowed, hollowed out.
Speaker:It feels like it's more on the level of the soul.
Speaker:And it's not purpose.
Speaker:Like I had purpose, I was doing impactful work.
Speaker:I was helping thousands of people.
Speaker:It wasn't purpose or, or maybe it, it was, but it was like,
Speaker:it's like a deeper alignment.
Speaker:It's a deeper knowing of self.
Speaker:And I think they're related because when you're burned out, it's really,
Speaker:really hard to do the work on yourself to even notice that you're hollowed out.
Speaker:I like, I don't even know if you can notice that you're hollowed
Speaker:out when you're burned out 'cause you're just in survival mode.
Speaker:Um, but having my life in order from a burnout perspective, I think really
Speaker:helped me tune into the fact that there was just this empty space within my
Speaker:being, this deeper level that I was yearning for, that everything I've been
Speaker:focusing on and prioritizing and putting at the peak of my, my list for the last.
Speaker:You know, for my whole life, all 36 years of it, um,
Speaker:was not filling that hole.
Speaker:And so the path I've been on isn't getting me to this space that I could
Speaker:sense is out there that I want to fill.
Speaker:So I have to stop going down that path and I have no idea what path
Speaker:to go down, but I know I need to stop in order to figure that out.
Speaker:Uh, I was having a conversation with someone, um, recently about
Speaker:being content and having ambition.
Speaker:And this sense of like a, a tension between that.
Speaker:And sometimes I have this impression like, yeah, being a ambitious is good.
Speaker:You know, we wanna strive, we wanna drive, we wanna create things.
Speaker:And I sound like there's a lot of creativity in your life with, you
Speaker:know, with the book, with CMX, with community building, with,
Speaker:with, with helping lots of people.
Speaker:and I dunno if there's a fine line or just a different quality
Speaker:of what it means to be ambitious depending on what's driving it.
Speaker:There's nothing wrong with ambition.
Speaker:I. Ambition is a beautiful thing.
Speaker:It's an energy, it's a willingness to create, to serve, to build.
Speaker:What I found is that the motivation for the ambition where the ambition
Speaker:is coming from is important.
Speaker:It's important to know.
Speaker:And so the way I've described it is dirty fuel versus clean fuel.
Speaker:So I noticed that for most of my life I've been driven by dirty fuel.
Speaker:And even calling it dirty fuel is a little, it's a judgment.
Speaker:It's saying it's bad, but I think it, it's a helpful metaphor in a way.
Speaker:And what I mean by dirty fuel is the things I was doing, the things I was
Speaker:building, the ambition was coming from a belief that I was not enough.
Speaker:So my fear of not being enough was driving me to create, to
Speaker:seek reputation, to seek success, to, to be this entrepreneur, to
Speaker:achieve this identity, um, to people please to avoid conflict.
Speaker:Um, and I believe that the story that I was telling myself was, if
Speaker:I achieve blank, I will be enough.
Speaker:Which the foundation of that story means that enoughness needs
Speaker:to come from outside, from some sort of achievement, reputation,
Speaker:from other people's perspectives.
Speaker:And we kind of all know how that story ends, so the journey that
Speaker:I've been on has felt essentially like seeing that story and
Speaker:emptying my tank of the dirty fuel.
Speaker:And then as that dirty fuel empties, you actually don't need to do much.
Speaker:The clean fuel will start to come in.
Speaker:Now the scary thing is, in my experience and and many other experience, others
Speaker:experiences in the abyss is there's a space between when you empty your
Speaker:tank of dirty fuel, it's not like you immediately fill up with clean fuel.
Speaker:There's just an empty space for a while, and that clean fuel will arrive
Speaker:if you can sit in that empty space and just surrender to it, to not knowing,
Speaker:to not achieving, to not building, to not needing to do anything, to just
Speaker:being because just being is enoughness.
Speaker:If you can just be and truly sit in that space and all of the horrible discomfort
Speaker:that comes with it, that is enoughness.
Speaker:I am enough as I am a sitting, breathing still body.
Speaker:There's nothing I need to do in order to be a whole and enough person.
Speaker:And you, I, you can only really find that in that in-between space.
Speaker:And it was only once I truly found that and started to believe, like actually
Speaker:believe that I'm enough for a long time.
Speaker:I, I could say it until I turned blue and I did not believe it.
Speaker:I did not.
Speaker:Self-love was not something I had ever actually experienced, but when I finally
Speaker:started to believe it, I am enough.
Speaker:I. Then the clean fuel started to come in.
Speaker:Because when you start to truly believe that you are enough, it just, that's
Speaker:where that feeling, it's abundant.
Speaker:It's that energy that all you wanna do then is serve others.
Speaker:Like, I'm already enough.
Speaker:I don't have to do anything to feel like I'm enough, so I'm
Speaker:not even gonna worry about it.
Speaker:And now all I wanna do is just help other people find that as well.
Speaker:And, and the energy started coming back and I started feeling motivated again.
Speaker:And my writing took on a whole new form and I started coaching accidentally.
Speaker:Um, and I have like so many ideas, so many things I want to
Speaker:create that are coming from this clean fuel, this enoughness,
Speaker:this self-love, this abundance.
Speaker:I remember a few years ago we just, when diesel was an okay fuel, we got
Speaker:a diesel van and my wife accidentally put, put uh, a leather petrol in it.
Speaker:And the smoke, you know, made me think of like the smoke coming up when the
Speaker:clean fuel hits the dirty fuel, you know, that the, there's a danger there
Speaker:that, uh, yeah, it compounds you end up causing more damage than good.
Speaker:And, and, and like that, that's a great point though.
Speaker:'cause like the reality is there's always gonna be
Speaker:some dirty fuel in there.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:it's almost like there's like two tanks in, like they're, you know, I've
Speaker:just been using dirty fuel and now I can also tap into the clean fuel.
Speaker:But am I sitting in front of you an enlightened being
Speaker:with no ego, no stories?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:No pain that I'm trying to avoid?
Speaker:Of course not like it's still there, but.
Speaker:I've certainly done a lot of work to see a lot of it and empty some
Speaker:of that tank and fill up some of the clean tank, and that's, that's
Speaker:the journey, that's the process.
Speaker:That's the work.
Speaker:It's gonna be something I do for my entire life is just
Speaker:continue to see, oh, oh yeah, like I said, yes to this podcast.
Speaker:Am I doing that from a place of enoughness, from clean fuel or
Speaker:is there some part of me here that's really craving reputation?
Speaker:Even as we kicked off today, I noticed in my, in my body there was
Speaker:like a little tension and I noticed like, ooh, like I really, like,
Speaker:I wanna impress everybody here.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I, I've given a lot of talks on community.
Speaker:I haven't given a lot of talks like this before and this like, oh, I hope I
Speaker:have like, something important to say.
Speaker:I hope I, I hope I sound wise, right?
Speaker:That story came up and, and, but, but it's the, the practices that I've.
Speaker:Been working on now for a long time has helped me to see that like
Speaker:the, the past me would've like just pushed that feeling down and like
Speaker:gone for impressing all of you.
Speaker:And I was able to see it and slow down and breathe into it and notice
Speaker:this story and thank this story.
Speaker:Thank that part of me that is trying to protect me and trying to make me
Speaker:feel like I'm enough and I'm back into enoughness and here we are.
Speaker:yeah, that whole battle with the ego thing is, is fascinating meeting because
Speaker:of the nature of our work and meeting people who are, say they can call
Speaker:themselves being on a spiritual journey, sometimes presenting themselves as.
Speaker:More enlightened, which in itself seems to be like a bit of an oxymoron
Speaker:as a, as a way of presenting yourself.
Speaker:And it reminds me of that as the Ramas quote.
Speaker:if you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your family.
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:And that's the truth of, you know, how really you're separated from your ego.
Speaker:I do love the, the, the dirty fuel versus clean fuel analogy because
Speaker:for me it conjuress up this idea that, fuel is driving the engine
Speaker:and the vehicle is moving and that's great and you're making progress.
Speaker:It's just you don't see all the emissions coming out the back and all
Speaker:whatever it is, the pollution you are creating by running on this dirty fuel.
Speaker:I can remember, um, we did a retreat, actually, ironically, we did a thing
Speaker:called the week of nothing, basically.
Speaker:Time for.
Speaker:People in our community to just be, and it was a beautiful
Speaker:place called 42 Acres.
Speaker:I, I forget the name of the founder, Lawrence.
Speaker:They had a really interesting story.
Speaker:Ah,
Speaker:Deb, wasn't it?
Speaker:Yeah, he was, well his, his dad has sold a pharmaceutical company, hadn't he?
Speaker:He basically ended up acquiring, I dunno if you acquired the land,
Speaker:but you acquired some money and, and decided to invest it into
Speaker:a regenerative farm basically.
Speaker:And you created this amazing, I think it's now 200 acres.
Speaker:It's, it's grown in, in scale, but, um, yeah, with real intention to,
Speaker:for it to be a, a retreat in itself, you know, as a place, but also to
Speaker:invite in facilitators and creators and leaders to, to come and, like
Speaker:you said, switch off for a few days.
Speaker:Um, but yes, it feels like a very, uh, sacred place.
Speaker:The story I remember him telling was he was very much in the activist world.
Speaker:And what he saw were these people really striving to make change
Speaker:in the world to really do good.
Speaker:But it was coming from a place of, like you were saying, maybe needing
Speaker:to be enough, needing to maybe fix themselves by fixing the world.
Speaker:And so it, it seems to be something that a, it isn't just a type
Speaker:entrepreneurs that may experience this.
Speaker:There is this idea of actually, and what I heard from you there is like,
Speaker:how, how often do we spend time just checking into what is actually going
Speaker:on inside and in our bodies, as opposed to telling ourselves stories of, oh,
Speaker:we need to do this, we need to do that.
Speaker:I need to be this person in order to achieve some kind of approval or praise.
Speaker:I was gonna say, it reminded me
Speaker:of, um, a quote that I'll butcher, and I don't remember who said
Speaker:it, but it's something like, um, like when I was smart, I tried to
Speaker:change the world, and when I was wise, I tried to change myself.
Speaker:And that's it.
Speaker:It's like, what is, is that shift and that awareness that actually,
Speaker:rather than going outwards, I need to spend some time going inwards.
Speaker:I'm curious to hear about how that worked for you.
Speaker:What was that journey and what, because there's so many ways to do that and
Speaker:therapy is the classic one that people go for, but how did you become aware
Speaker:of needing to do this in the journey and what, how did you, how do you
Speaker:travel that, let's put it that way,
Speaker:extremely inefficiently.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I stepped down from the company.
Speaker:I had no idea.
Speaker:Um, you know, I've been like meditating in, in various forms for
Speaker:over 10 years, and I've always had some sort of mindfulness practice.
Speaker:But now having gone aze as I've gone now, I know how shallow my
Speaker:practice was when I stepped down.
Speaker:I first just committed to doing absolutely nothing.
Speaker:Um, literally like I, I refused to put anything on my calendar
Speaker:or plan anything for the future.
Speaker:It would just be, I. I wake up, what do I feel like doing today?
Speaker:And then I'll go do that.
Speaker:I'll feel like riding my bike to the ocean.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:Go do that.
Speaker:I ran into an old lady on the way there, ended up talking to her
Speaker:for two hours and eating bagels, like things just unfolded because
Speaker:I just, I had nowhere else to be.
Speaker:It wasn't like, oh, I can't sit and talk.
Speaker:I have to, I have someone to meet.
Speaker:Like every day was just open.
Speaker:And so I just defaulted to creating a lot of spaciousness at first.
Speaker:there were a lot of things that, like, I distracted myself with.
Speaker:We had our second child, I mean, not distracted, you know, it was, it was
Speaker:definitely a worthwhile, um, space to be present and invested in my family.
Speaker:But I wasn't like doing a lot of deep inner work on myself.
Speaker:I was just kind of, if, if nothing else, giving a lot of energy to other
Speaker:parts of my life that wasn't work.
Speaker:and then, um, you know, I like would start to.
Speaker:Write again and kind of fall back into old patterns.
Speaker:And every time that would happen, something in the universe would
Speaker:kind of sweep me back out.
Speaker:We had our daughter and, you know, I took time off again for that.
Speaker:and then it was all, it was all, it was basically like this, like kind of try to
Speaker:start doing work again and try to start like functioning in the world again
Speaker:and then kind of backing out again, and then going back in and backing out.
Speaker:I didn't really have any support.
Speaker:I didn't have a coach, I didn't have a therapist at the time.
Speaker:I didn't, I didn't have any network around me to really guide
Speaker:me and so I just kind of floated.
Speaker:Um, and then it was like actually when I was really starting to rev
Speaker:up and um, like it felt like things were starting to move forward again.
Speaker:I was consulting and making good money.
Speaker:My newsletter was growing.
Speaker:I. I don't think it was aligned, super aligned work.
Speaker:It was definitely still just going back to my old identity.
Speaker:Um, but like I felt refreshed, I felt energized, I didn't feel burned out.
Speaker:and then everything crashed and burned right when I was
Speaker:really started to hit a stride.
Speaker:Um, I had a few life quakes that happened all at once.
Speaker:Um, one was a public conflict with some former colleagues and partners.
Speaker:Um, that just was the most intense, difficult thing
Speaker:I've ever had to deal with.
Speaker:Um, I basically got publicly called out for causing harm, and I've described the
Speaker:structure of my ego, people pleasing, conflict avoidance, needing reputation,
Speaker:needing to be seen as the good guy.
Speaker:All of my parts just got burned to the ground and.
Speaker:That, that crushed me, frankly.
Speaker:It, it destroyed, it destroyed my ego.
Speaker:I was suffering really deeply from depression, anxiety, panic
Speaker:attacks, suicidal ideation.
Speaker:And then on top of that, uh, my daughter, who was under six
Speaker:months, went to the ER three times in about six weeks.
Speaker:Um, one time was life-threatening from an allergy we didn't know she had.
Speaker:Um, and, um, my mother-in-law got sick, um, and we found out she
Speaker:had a very short time to live.
Speaker:And so all this happened within a few months.
Speaker:And I, like I said, I was just lost at that point.
Speaker:And, um, it's pretty incredible how the universe can bring
Speaker:you the support you need.
Speaker:Um, when.
Speaker:You reach it, it, it felt like rock bottom for me and
Speaker:people started finding me.
Speaker:Um, a coach that, um, is a conflict coach, former therapist,
Speaker:a tech co-founder who had also been canceled, came and found me.
Speaker:And, um, we ended up working together for many months and she helped,
Speaker:helped me stay with that conflict and not run from it and truly surrender
Speaker:to it and let it change me and see the truth and the feedback, see the
Speaker:gift in it, find the purpose in it.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:I found a community of founders that are all on consciousness journeys that
Speaker:has been profoundly impactful because I felt not alone for the first time
Speaker:in being a. Sensitive and open and vulnerable as a male, as a founder
Speaker:with other high achievers who have gone through what I've gone through.
Speaker:And so that became a really, really valuable space for me.
Speaker:I was so burned out on community.
Speaker:I, I quit every community I was a part of.
Speaker:And actually still today, that's the only one I'm a part of.
Speaker:that led me to start working with an IFS coach that I met through the group.
Speaker:And internal family systems, probably the most impactful practice I've done.
Speaker:Um, that's, I mean, I'm gonna be getting trained in that next because
Speaker:it's been so impactful for me and I want to be able to offer it to others
Speaker:and happy to talk about what that is.
Speaker:Um, breath work helped me process my emotions in such a deep extreme way.
Speaker:Um, before that, I had a hard time expressing my emotions,
Speaker:especially anger, rage, shame, guilt, and through breath work.
Speaker:It just.
Speaker:Poured out of me.
Speaker:started working with a new, you know, just a standard therapist as well.
Speaker:went much deeper into a meditation practice.
Speaker:I learned about Zazen through a retreat that I went to.
Speaker:And so sitting meditation, I do 30 minutes every morning.
Speaker:and it's, it's the collection of these things that have really
Speaker:been profound by doing IFS.
Speaker:You learn about your parts and your stories and the narratives that are
Speaker:going on, and then when I sit in meditation and those stories come up
Speaker:the way I can interact and sit with them and then come back to presence and self.
Speaker:Um, so all of these things, breath work, everything has just
Speaker:been this like constellation of practices that have helped me heal.
Speaker:wow.
Speaker:And then it's only in the last, yeah, maybe 3, 2, 3 months ago
Speaker:that I felt like I actually reached the other shore of that abyss.
Speaker:And found enoughness and found self-love.
Speaker:And it's, yeah, I mean, now I'm at the point where I, I, I believe
Speaker:that that conflict and all those struggles were, uh, a wonderful gift.
Speaker:'cause it, it cracked me open and allowed me to go so deep into myself to
Speaker:do the work that when I quit, that the company and I set out to fill that hole,
Speaker:that I'd be able to, to do that work.
Speaker:I don't think without those life quakes, I would not have been
Speaker:able to go that deep with myself.
Speaker:I would not have had my ego confronted in such an extreme way.
Speaker:it was brutal.
Speaker:It was hell.
Speaker:I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy and I'm really grateful for it.
Speaker:thank you Tim.
Speaker:Thank you for Yeah, thank you being so open about that.
Speaker:and yeah, there, there is something about you can show people the
Speaker:door, but I. Unless they're motivated to walk through it.
Speaker:An experience and a, yeah.
Speaker:Hitting rock bottom and yeah, you can give people all the wisdom
Speaker:they, you think they need till the cows come home and still
Speaker:something has to be experienced in order for that shift to happen.
Speaker:It sounds like, um, I'd love yeah, for you to just share a bit more about
Speaker:some of these modalities, these, these approaches and, um, yeah, it'd be great
Speaker:to hear your explanation of IFS and, and how you people can understand it.
Speaker:I'd love to hear a little bit about what Zazen is and, and maybe sharing
Speaker:a bit more about what that practice, how that works and maybe the story,
Speaker:the philosophy behind it, and then also this idea of breath work and emotions.
Speaker:You know, that's an interesting thing for me.
Speaker:I'd like to, um, there's something around I've experienced
Speaker:with simple as simple.
Speaker:Today we'll create teaching a pricing course.
Speaker:And there's something, knowing above the neck, all the things
Speaker:you need to do, and then suddenly feeling not able to do it because
Speaker:something's blocking you in the body.
Speaker:There's an emotion comes up, a experience comes up.
Speaker:And so I, it feels like that's a metaphor for lots of things that
Speaker:happen where we believe we can do it, but something stops us.
Speaker:And so I'd be curious, just emotions and breath work and how you, they,
Speaker:they've connected or how breath work has helped you with that
Speaker:releasing, experiencing emotions.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and I'll just caveat that I'm not a teacher.
Speaker:I am not deeply experienced.
Speaker:Um, there are much greater experts on these topics, but
Speaker:I can share my experience and what I, what I know today.
Speaker:IFS.
Speaker:Internal Family Systems was created by Dick Schwartz, who's a family
Speaker:therapist, who essentially took the, what he did in family therapy with
Speaker:helping different people find common ground, understand each other, feel
Speaker:heard, feel seen, and then through his practice, realized that the same
Speaker:thing was happening within his clients.
Speaker:Um, we have these constellation of parts, like an internal
Speaker:family, and, um, these parts have an identity of their own.
Speaker:They, um, they have needs, they have wants, they have hopes, they have fears.
Speaker:They, um, they've been with us our whole life, but at some point in their
Speaker:life they got burdened essentially by capital T, trauma, lowercase T trauma.
Speaker:And so my parts, I have my high achiever part, my idealist or perfectionist part.
Speaker:My people pleaser part, my creative part and the practice of IFS is to
Speaker:connect when you're feeling tension.
Speaker:So I'm thinking about this pricing.
Speaker:I have all these ideas, but there's some tension, there's something
Speaker:going on, some hesitation, some fear, and this is where you can connect
Speaker:it with breath work and tuning into your feelings and your body.
Speaker:So the practice would be to notice where you feel in your body.
Speaker:Like even like I can relate to what you're describing.
Speaker:So I'm already feeling in my body, like right around here.
Speaker:And like my throat, I, I start to feel tension and then you notice that there's
Speaker:a part, um, maybe multiple parts.
Speaker:Um, that wants to feel heard.
Speaker:There's a part of you that wants to make sure you make the right decision.
Speaker:Um, there's a part of you that wants to be empathetic and
Speaker:offer fair and ethical pricing.
Speaker:Um, there's a part of you that's ambitious and is worried about
Speaker:not having financial security.
Speaker:And all of these parts are trying to protect you.
Speaker:There are no bad parts, right in if FS, there are no bad parts.
Speaker:That's the name of the book, no bad parts.
Speaker:They're all good parts.
Speaker:They all form to serve you, to protect you.
Speaker:And, um, and so you go inward and you talk to them and you ask them,
Speaker:what is it that you want from me?
Speaker:What are you afraid of happening if you don't do your job?
Speaker:And it sounds kind of woo woo and weird at times.
Speaker:I highly recommend.
Speaker:Um, just like there, there's actually on Tim Ferriss's podcast, he
Speaker:interviews Dick Schwartz and they do.
Speaker:An actual session together, so you get to see what it's like.
Speaker:At first, when I started doing it, I was like, this is really weird.
Speaker:I feel awkward.
Speaker:And then it just like, it just, it cleared so much for me.
Speaker:Like, because what happens is when the part feels heard, feels seen, just
Speaker:like when people feel heard and feel seen, they just tend to dissipate.
Speaker:Now I know the story.
Speaker:the, the parts took over the bus and you as your true self, right?
Speaker:You, you come into self, you take hold of the bus again, and then you
Speaker:can choose when to call that part up.
Speaker:Hey, I need to like push right now.
Speaker:Like, this is a time we need to be really ambitious and hungry.
Speaker:I'm gonna call that part up.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:That's why when we said ambition isn't bad, if you're intentional and conscious
Speaker:and you're the one driving the bus and you're asking that part for directions.
Speaker:But if that part is really triggered and agitated and worried and it's not being
Speaker:listened to, it's just gonna get louder and louder and louder and louder and
Speaker:grab the wheel and just start turning the bus in whichever way it wants.
Speaker:And that's where that feeling.
Speaker:Anxiety and tension can come up.
Speaker:And as you do that work and you sit with that part, you'll notice most
Speaker:people would, that that energy starts to dissipate and you feel calm and
Speaker:openness and you come into wonder.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Instead of worrying about what, what's the right price?
Speaker:I wonder what would happen if we offered sliding scale pricing.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:That might not work.
Speaker:That's cool.
Speaker:Let's try it.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And it just, all the tension, all like the need to make the right
Speaker:decision starts to disappear.
Speaker:Um, that's IFS, that's probably the most complex.
Speaker:The others are more simple.
Speaker:Meditation.
Speaker:Zaza meditation is a form of, um, Buddhist meditation.
Speaker:Um, the, the standard practices.
Speaker:You sit, for 30 minutes and you focus on your breath.
Speaker:And you count your breath from one to 10.
Speaker:If you have a thought.
Speaker:Start back at one.
Speaker:If you reach 10, start back at one.
Speaker:generally eyes are cast down, but open, which was new for me.
Speaker:In meditation, you keep your eyes open, but lower your gaze.
Speaker:Knees should be on the ground and, um, it's a beautiful practice.
Speaker:Um, you can go to a monastery, they have very affordable retreats.
Speaker:You can go for a week, uh, intro weekend and practice with, you know, they do the
Speaker:full liturgy, chanting, singing bowls.
Speaker:There's a whole process to it that I've incorporated some
Speaker:of that into my own practice.
Speaker:But it can be just as simple as sitting.
Speaker:I do it every morning.
Speaker:It's the first thing I do when I wake up.
Speaker:I wake up and I go straight to the mat and spend 30 minutes.
Speaker:Ideally.
Speaker:Depends.
Speaker:Sometimes my kids wake up early and they interrupt me, and that's okay.
Speaker:I'm gentle with my myself.
Speaker:Then it's just a practice of noticing when a thought comes up,
Speaker:smiling, showing that thought, some gratitude, because that
Speaker:thought's coming from apart, right?
Speaker:So this is where it starts to integrate aparts, like, Hey, that
Speaker:thing we got, we gotta remember we had that thing to do today.
Speaker:Or like, Hey, you haven't really solved that conflict yet.
Speaker:Should we rehearse what we're gonna say?
Speaker:And you can just see that part, think it, and ask it if it's
Speaker:willing to step back for the moment.
Speaker:Because right now we're focusing on our breath.
Speaker:And gently bring yourself back.
Speaker:And through that practice, you start to learn how your mind works.
Speaker:You start to see how the thoughts come up, and you just start to know
Speaker:yourself on a much deeper level.
Speaker:And then you can bring that practice into your day every day.
Speaker:Like I did at the start of this call, I noticed, oh, there's a story.
Speaker:Can breathe into it.
Speaker:Come back to my breath.
Speaker:Think that part.
Speaker:Ask it if it's willing to step back while I participate in this
Speaker:lovely conversation and come back to the intention and meditation,
Speaker:the intentions, the breath in this, it's our conversation.
Speaker:It's our eye contact.
Speaker:It's being with you and holding this relational space when I coach's being
Speaker:present with a client and really holding the space for them so it
Speaker:shows up with my kids, being present with them, with my wife, everything.
Speaker:It's what's the intention that you are trying to bring right now and
Speaker:noticing when things come up that are pulling yourself away from that
Speaker:intention and bringing yourself back
Speaker:and finally breath work.
Speaker:Um, so the breath, breath work takes many, many different forms.
Speaker:In essence, breath work is just working with your breath, and so there
Speaker:are really simple things you can do.
Speaker:I. Um, I learned too yesterday from, uh, Johnny Miller, who's a wonderful,
Speaker:uh, leader of nervous system Mastery.
Speaker:Um, led a session for our group in Downshift, which is a project I'm
Speaker:working on with Steve Schlafman.
Speaker:He taught us, there's, um, a humming breath where you close your eyes and
Speaker:put your thumbs in your ears to really get the resonance, breathe in, and
Speaker:then you just breathe out with humming.
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:And it just, it's things that can kind of bring you back into balance, um, when
Speaker:you're nervous system's being hijacked.
Speaker:Um, it can just be deep breathing.
Speaker:Um, generally breathe in for less time than you breathe out.
Speaker:So breathe in for two and then breathe out for six.
Speaker:Um, you could do holotropic breathing, which is what I did when it's, I.
Speaker:Was a really intense, um, emotional processing and it's
Speaker:something you have to experience.
Speaker:It's really intense.
Speaker:Um, there's music that you breathe to a beat.
Speaker:The pattern is two breaths in one breath out, so
Speaker:two in the nose, one out the mouth I believe.
Speaker:And um, or you could use just a mouth as well if your
Speaker:nose is clogged like mine is.
Speaker:And um, it's to a pretty fast pace and you just start to feel
Speaker:this really intense energy.
Speaker:And in my experience, um, it can really start, you know, whatever's
Speaker:going on in your psyche and your parts just really start to just flow out.
Speaker:And, um, the sessions are generally about an hour.
Speaker:The first half is this, like intense breathing.
Speaker:It feels like you're going through something really, really intense.
Speaker:Um, I just.
Speaker:Either bawled my eyes out and I cried deeper than I've ever cried before,
Speaker:or screamed at the top of my lungs viscerally, like really let it out in a
Speaker:way that this reserved, you know, human that I am is not very comfortable doing.
Speaker:Um, and then the second half is more calm, coming into more regular
Speaker:breath, and there's like a, a piece that comes after, like really moving
Speaker:that energy through your body.
Speaker:And so yeah, your, your body, your breath is just a really powerful
Speaker:way of moving energy through your body in these various forms.
Speaker:Um, and Johnny taught us as well that we have our vagus vagus nerve
Speaker:that runs through a whole body.
Speaker:And so 80% of the signals go from our body into our brain, and 20% go
Speaker:from our brain into our body, right?
Speaker:So we think we need to think, and then that's what's
Speaker:causing emotions in our body.
Speaker:In reality, it's what's going on in your body a lot of the time
Speaker:that's impacting what you think.
Speaker:And so it's this process of really feeling into your body,
Speaker:using the breath to tune in.
Speaker:Um, I do this with clients a lot where they're like, I'm, I
Speaker:really have a hard time feeling.
Speaker:It's like, okay, we bring up that feeling.
Speaker:Notice.
Speaker:It's like a little tiny bit of a feeling like right here and their chest.
Speaker:And then we just slow down and, and breathe into it.
Speaker:And just by breathing into it and opening it up, that that sensation
Speaker:can expand and expand and expand.
Speaker:We can use the breath, the breath to really expand and feel into an emotion.
Speaker:And I, I, I can see how this is all integrates into something that feels
Speaker:of, well, it's getting into this space of enoughness awareness, peace.
Speaker:It's quite ironic actually, the synchronicity of it all.
Speaker:Um, at Dunno, Lawrence to tell a story of our connection with Johnny.
Speaker:To live in Brighton where we lived.
Speaker:So we, we got know Johnny, I through map, wasn't it?
Speaker:Map was First Startup, which was a travel storytelling platform.
Speaker:Um, and we discovered it when we started Happy Start Must 10 years
Speaker:ago wasn't, we invited him and his co-founders to come and give a
Speaker:talk at our very first summer camp.
Speaker:And then it started, didn't he start the men's group that you're part of?
Speaker:Carlos and Brighton still.
Speaker:So a bit of a here he left his footprint in Brighton
Speaker:and
Speaker:then went off.
Speaker:Yeah, he's he's been through, been through the mill,
Speaker:but yeah, he Great guy.
Speaker:It's, it's interesting how the universe can work in these, uh, mysterious ways.
Speaker:I've learned that the more you surrender, the
Speaker:more that keeps happening.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I, I, I always thought that was a bit.
Speaker:Too Woo wooo for me, but I've witnessed it a few too many times I think.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Alright, there's something going on here.
Speaker:So I'd like, um, a couple of things I think towards, as we're
Speaker:fa to the end of our conversation here, firstly, is to just, uh,
Speaker:maybe get you to share a bit more.
Speaker:What, how has this now, um, I was gonna say affected, impacted, influenced
Speaker:how you want to turn up, you know, you said already in your coaching
Speaker:it's, there's, there's a difference or there's you're feeling a difference.
Speaker:And also in terms of your work and how you're approaching your work and
Speaker:how you're thinking about your work.
Speaker:And then maybe go into what it is you are exploring now and where
Speaker:you want to go with, with doing now that you've done a lot of being,
Speaker:always being, being never stops.
Speaker:think the goal is to be and do.
Speaker:And synchronicity.
Speaker:well, I don't wake up with a weight on my chest every day.
Speaker:I don't feel like I have to work to be enough.
Speaker:I don't need to be the center of attention.
Speaker:I feel a very strong energy towards helping others.
Speaker:I used to judge coaching as like, this is something you do when you
Speaker:can't do, you know, it's like those who can't do teach or coach don't
Speaker:tell my wife that she's a teacher.
Speaker:And I mean, I've seen the, the deep flaw in that logic.
Speaker:Um, coaching's been extremely fulfilling for me.
Speaker:Just being able to go deep with an individual and hold that space for
Speaker:them, and like you said, you can't force anyone down the journey, but
Speaker:just holding the space for them and being someone who can be a mirror for
Speaker:them as they navigate these questions.
Speaker:It's been extremely rewarding.
Speaker:I talk a lot about return on energy, like we have ROI return on
Speaker:investment, so return on energy.
Speaker:So if I put energy into something, you know, I spend an hour on this
Speaker:interview, I spend an hour in a coaching call, do I feel like I have
Speaker:more energy when I leave it or less?
Speaker:And if there's more, I can keep doing that indefinitely.
Speaker:That's what I'm feeling right now in this conversation.
Speaker:That's what I feel in my coaching.
Speaker:That's what I feel in my writing.
Speaker:And if I notice, I'm not feeling that I'm learning how to say no, I.
Speaker:Even though I think I should, right?
Speaker:The should word the story or I have an obligation to, or it's part of my
Speaker:identity, I have a fear of not doing it.
Speaker:If I can truly sense that this is not giving me more energy than I'm
Speaker:putting in, I am practice the whole body, yes, concepts, your heart, your
Speaker:mind, your gut, and really learn how to feel into, am I feeling called
Speaker:to say yes to this thing or no?
Speaker:Am I, do I feel tension?
Speaker:Do I feel like this isn't in alignment, I'm practicing?
Speaker:No, I'm doing that every day and just letting things unfold.
Speaker:I didn't mean to become a coach.
Speaker:It accidentally happened and quickly became my full-time thing.
Speaker:and what's unfolding now is just continuing to deepen
Speaker:my coaching practice.
Speaker:Um, get deeper training in areas where I want to go deeper, like in IFS.
Speaker:Um, I work right now, my clients are, um, community founders and
Speaker:community leaders who are an identity I know deeply, and so I
Speaker:can kind of relate to their journey.
Speaker:Um, and, uh, founders, general founders and high achievers who I also know
Speaker:their journey and can relate deeply and to support them in both showing
Speaker:up to their work fully, but in their own self-discovery journey and how
Speaker:to work from a place of greater alignment and presence and enoughness.
Speaker:and then I read my newsletter, which has been a beautiful space to share my own.
Speaker:Experiences and lessons, and it kind of intersects between these two worlds of
Speaker:human connection and community design.
Speaker:And then the, the inner working consciousness.
Speaker:Those two things are highly related.
Speaker:I've learned there's no such thing as community building
Speaker:without working on yourself.
Speaker:And there's no such thing as working on yourself without community.
Speaker:It's all integrated.
Speaker:We are all one.
Speaker:And, um, I don't work Fridays.
Speaker:I take long walks in the woods.
Speaker:I don't take any calls in the mornings.
Speaker:That's all for writing and creative work.
Speaker:I have very clear boundaries on what I say yes to and how much time
Speaker:I put in to meetings and calls.
Speaker:And, um, at this stage, my life is very balanced and very beautiful.
Speaker:I spend a lot of time with my kids, drop them off at school every day.
Speaker:My wife and my parents, who we move back to New York to be close to.
Speaker:Lots of time in the woods.
Speaker:We live seven minute walk from a hike that I go to multiple times a week.
Speaker:Done a lot of healing in there, and
Speaker:that's my life.
Speaker:So there's a couple of things, um, to end on firstly, there is, I'm
Speaker:sensing this kind of more emergent approach to your work and then life.
Speaker:How are you, if at all, marrying it up with the businessy way of being and the
Speaker:kind of more strategic way of thinking?
Speaker:Is that still useful for you or is it now just not something
Speaker:you need, you're much more open.
Speaker:I'm just curious for people who are on this journey of like being as well
Speaker:as doing, do you have any, your own opinion on this or perspective more
Speaker:than like a doctrine or anything?
Speaker:Yeah, I've done a lot of thinking on like this, this intersection of
Speaker:consciousness and capitalism, and it's a very common conversation in this
Speaker:community of high achiever founder types who are on consciousness journeys.
Speaker:How do we hold space for both?
Speaker:And actually it was a talk from Ram Das I listened to recently
Speaker:who described that it's, it's not, you're not escaping, you're
Speaker:not spiritually bypassing.
Speaker:You still have to be a human.
Speaker:you can be one with the universe.
Speaker:You can see the oneness in everything.
Speaker:And you're human with anger and pain and fear and ambition
Speaker:and taxes and a mortgage.
Speaker:there was a part of me when I was in between like the clean fuel
Speaker:and dirty fuel phase where like my tank was empty and I got really
Speaker:afraid 'cause it was like, my motivation felt like it disappeared.
Speaker:And I went to uh, I went to the mon, the Zen Mountain
Speaker:monastery in the Hudson Valley.
Speaker:And there was a part of me that was like, if I didn't have a wife
Speaker:and kids, I would just not leave.
Speaker:I would just be a resident here.
Speaker:Just monk life felt really appealing 'cause it felt like I could almost
Speaker:escape my humanity and just live in this practice of presence and
Speaker:not have to worry about money me.
Speaker:Um, but I had an opportunity to sit with the teacher there and I asked her
Speaker:the question of what do you do when you reach a place of feeling alignment
Speaker:and enoughness, you're already enough, so what's the point of doing anything?
Speaker:And she said to two.
Speaker:Relieve the suffering of all beings.
Speaker:And at the time I was like, that wasn't helpful
Speaker:because again, unless you experience it and believe it doesn't,
Speaker:doesn't do anything for you.
Speaker:But, um, over time, that's become more true.
Speaker:And so it's, so, it's a, it's a balance.
Speaker:As I show up to my coaching, pricing, like you said, is a huge thing.
Speaker:My rates that I was charging for consulting were astronomical and a
Speaker:lot of people come to me for coaching, can't afford anything close to that.
Speaker:So I've offered sliding scale pricing to everyone.
Speaker:And I live in Westchester, New York, which is one of the most
Speaker:expensive suburbs in the world.
Speaker:We're trying to buy a house in the worst time ever to buy a house.
Speaker:We can't afford to buy a house.
Speaker:That story, that fear, that financial insecurity is
Speaker:very alive for me right now.
Speaker:And something I'm sitting with, And so do I just say yes to everybody who
Speaker:wants coaching regardless of the price?
Speaker:Even if that means my kids don't have a home?
Speaker:No, there has to be a balance, right?
Speaker:There's has to be a price I'm willing to charge that is accessible.
Speaker:And on average I have to be able to pay to live and be okay.
Speaker:I don't need a lot, I don't need to be filthy rich.
Speaker:I would like wealth.
Speaker:I would like wealth.
Speaker:Wealth to be okay.
Speaker:and so, that's the balance I'm sitting with.
Speaker:And there are times where like I just announced that I'm doing this
Speaker:coaching group for community founders.
Speaker:Hell yeah.
Speaker:I turned on that, that part of me that has 15 years of entrepreneurial
Speaker:experience and has generated hundreds of thousands of dollars
Speaker:in revenue and knows how to like, get people excited about something
Speaker:and sell a product and, um.
Speaker:Gets excited about creating and building.
Speaker:Yeah, bring that part on.
Speaker:I'm choosing to bring it to the forefront.
Speaker:I'm giving it the wheel for the moment.
Speaker:It's not coming from a place that I'm not enough though this
Speaker:time, and that's the difference.
Speaker:what was the likelihood of you starting another community?
Speaker:Uh, yeah.
Speaker:I'm still not, I'm still still not ready for that.
Speaker:Even starting like a group coaching thing has been a big
Speaker:step of vulnerability for me.
Speaker:And, um, I, I don't have any intention of starting a community.
Speaker:I actually, I feel very little energy towards doing that right now, and
Speaker:there's a lot of story around that and judgment and questions, and
Speaker:I'm sitting with those questions.
Speaker:But for now, I'm really enjoying being a part of community.
Speaker:I'm actually, I'm like volunteering a bunch with a couple other
Speaker:communities and groups that I'm a part of to like organize retreats
Speaker:and, um, I'm helping others build, build their community containers.
Speaker:I'm, I'm feeling very happy to be in, in service in that capacity.
Speaker:I don't feel any draw to start a new community right
Speaker:now, but that can change.
Speaker:Well, thank you David.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:uh, some final thoughts, maybe some, what's, anything that's become
Speaker:clear or anything we are leaving with anything that you'd like
Speaker:to leave, uh, the audience with, um, Lawrence, what would you, um,
Speaker:anything that you'd like to share?
Speaker:I think I'm taking away this idea of what's driving, who's driving, whether
Speaker:it's the parts, which parts are driving, but also what's fueling the car.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's, uh, sitting with me.
Speaker:And this idea of being in doing, finding that balance is always,
Speaker:it feels like a NICE's work.
Speaker:But yeah.
Speaker:I listened to David talk.
Speaker:I just thought you need your own app, you know, like Headspace,
Speaker:I can listen to you all day.
Speaker:Got a very soothing voice.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:I've done a couple, actually, right before this, I recorded a guided.
Speaker:I do, I'm doing somatic community design meditations.
Speaker:Oh, nice.
Speaker:And so I recorded that and sent it to someone.
Speaker:So I'm starting to guide meditations now, which has been a lot of fun.
Speaker:how about you, David?
Speaker:Anything you wanna leave people with?
Speaker:And, and particular, is there anywhere you wanna point people to
Speaker:if they wanna find out more about, uh, your work and what you do?
Speaker:Um, I'm feeling very grateful right now.
Speaker:I feel genuine gratitude for both of you, for having me.
Speaker:Like I said, I haven't given many public interviews or
Speaker:conversations about this journey.
Speaker:This is really the first proper one.
Speaker:And so for seeing that in me and my story and inviting me
Speaker:here, I'm really grateful And.
Speaker:That's really, I, I, I get a lot out of sharing it and connecting
Speaker:with you and with everyone here listening on this stuff.
Speaker:And so, um, deep gratitude for everyone who joined in and who
Speaker:will listen to this later as well.
Speaker:I feel connected to all of you.
Speaker:I define me, david spins.com.
Speaker:You can find my newsletter there or go straight to david spins.substack.com.
Speaker:I, I'm really grateful for how you brought together your understanding
Speaker:of IFS, the zazen meditation work, the breath work, and how
Speaker:this awareness, this connection to body awareness of feelings and
Speaker:awareness of parts and how that's Like a integration not only of those
Speaker:modalities, but integration of self.
Speaker:Uh, and how that is, it seems like, and having a beneficial
Speaker:impact on how you're turning up now as another version of David.
Speaker:So thank you.
Speaker:Really appreciate that and I hope everyone who is, um, who listened to
Speaker:that has got something for themselves.
Speaker:So
Speaker:I just noticed that, um, as you shared that, I remember a story I held when
Speaker:I kind of started going down this journey and to some extent still
Speaker:hold, which is that there's a lot that you can do as you start to like go
Speaker:inward and start working on yourself.
Speaker:There's retreats and modalities and practices and
Speaker:50,000 types of meditation.
Speaker:And so I, I, I know the feeling of overwhelm in, in case you're
Speaker:feeling that after hearing my story, just know that it, it just
Speaker:unfolds one at a time and I didn't seek a lot of these things out.
Speaker:Um, a lot of it came to me.
Speaker:Um, and so just take what you know, the right, my, my friend
Speaker:Steve Flaman calls it the right next step or the next right step.
Speaker:Just try one thing, try meditating for 10 minutes, try tuning into your breath.
Speaker:Go to one breath work session.
Speaker:You don't need to figure out this constellation of different
Speaker:things that work for you that will unfold and they'll find their
Speaker:integrations, but just whatever.
Speaker:If something that we spoke about today felt really like it sparked some, a
Speaker:lot of energy and feels really alive to you, what's like one small step,
Speaker:one small action you can take to give that a shot and just go from there.
