Episode 151
Leadership based on feeling, not just thinking
Michelle Grant is an alumna of our Vision 20/20 program and was part of Tribe 2 that started in September 2020.
She’s the founder of The Great Full and offers coaching and community for women leaders within the realms of food systems, sustainability, and regeneration.
Michelle combines her deep knowledge of sustainable systems with her passion for personal and professional development.
Her leadership programs like "Be the Change" and "Lead the Change" offer a supportive community and tools to empower women changemakers to take care of their personal wellbeing, as well as that of the planet.
She’s passionate about the importance of inner work to create impactful outer change, blending theory and practice, science and philosophy, and engaging the head, heart, and hands in her learning journeys.
She is also a professionally certified coach with the International Coaching Federation, trained in the Enneagram, and a seasoned yoga and meditation teacher.
In this episode, Carlos, Laurence, and Michelle explore questions like
- How can we develop more intuitive leaders?
- How can we promote more feminine energy in leadership?
- Why does the old style leadership need to change anyway?
Links
Transcript
Our friend today is Michelle Grant.
Speaker:She is the founder of the Great Full.
Speaker:and we've had a conversation, around this idea of leadership.
Speaker:Uh, I feel very highly unqualified to, to talk about it in any great detail.
Speaker:I feel a lot of the time my leadership style has been winging it.
Speaker:Very much sensing, uh, and feeling the way forward, but at the same
Speaker:time not really getting, what is it?
Speaker:What does, what, is this actual leadership or is this just
Speaker:like wandering through the wilderness with a bunch of mates?
Speaker:would say you're not alone with wondering what is
Speaker:leadership and am I doing it?
Speaker:I think we all.
Speaker:Continually question that no matter how much we work on the topic, I, I
Speaker:wish we had this conversation sooner 'cause we could have
Speaker:changed the title of this to what
Speaker:and am I a leader?
Speaker:That's, I think we're gonna reword the title to this.
Speaker:This is what's gonna come out in the newsletter.
Speaker:But, um, mm-hmm.
Speaker:For, for the people listening, um, who haven't met you before, uh, please
Speaker:maybe just share a bit more about what the Great Full is, what you do, and,
Speaker:um, maybe a bit of why, what you, how you got to where you, you are now,
Speaker:and, um, you know, maybe the, a little bit of a background story to you.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Well, it's lovely to be here again.
Speaker:Um, I worked kind of extensively with both of you for a period of time,
Speaker:so it feels nice to be back here and to see some familiar names as well.
Speaker:I'm originally from Australia, but I'm now based in Switzerland.
Speaker:Um, and a few years ago I founded this organization, which is called
Speaker:the Great Full, and it really emerged out of a long time working around
Speaker:this topic of sustainability, which is maybe as nebulous as the topic of
Speaker:leadership, but effectively just trying to work out how can we create a better
Speaker:future for humans on this planet.
Speaker:And in my like years and years working in this topic, I kept, um.
Speaker:You know, coming back to this one place, which was, wow, actually
Speaker:food is connected to all of these challenges we're talking about,
Speaker:whether it's climate change or biodiversity loss or education,
Speaker:there was always this food lens.
Speaker:So I actually spent a lot of time then working on topics
Speaker:of food and sustainability.
Speaker:One, and in the course of that work, what I kept coming back to kind
Speaker:of underneath everything was wow.
Speaker:Whether we're able to, you know, really make an impact or create change
Speaker:in the way that we are hoping to with these different projects that
Speaker:we are working on in the end, or comes down to how we are showing up.
Speaker:As human beings and how we're able to collaborate with each
Speaker:other or not in the process.
Speaker:And so that kind of started this deeper reflection process of me of like,
Speaker:you know, going under the iceberg of there's all these challenges we're
Speaker:facing on the surface, but if we keep digging deeper, what is it that
Speaker:we need to change to really like, move the needle on these things?
Speaker:And it just come, came back to like, well, what we need to change a human
Speaker:beings and what does it mean actually to be humans in a change process?
Speaker:And, um, to essentially start to question, well then actually,
Speaker:yeah, what does leadership mean?
Speaker:If it's really all about bringing.
Speaker:About positive change.
Speaker:Um, and so I started to transition out of my role at the university running
Speaker:a research center on food systems and into creating this space, which is
Speaker:called the Great Full, which really opens up an opportunity for us to come
Speaker:together to talk about not only the challenges that we are facing in terms
Speaker:of sustainability and regeneration, but how do we wanna create change and what
Speaker:does that look like to actually step into that in a way that's authentic and
Speaker:also fulfilling for ourselves because it's a sector which has so much burnout.
Speaker:A lot of people who are really motivated, purpose driven, wanna make
Speaker:a positive impact and just feel so overwhelmed with all that there is to do
Speaker:for like nothing's ever enough and kind of work so much and end up burning out.
Speaker:So I really wanted to, um.
Speaker:Yeah, offer a space to understand leadership, understand what wellbeing
Speaker:has to do with our contribution, and what are ways that we can,
Speaker:you know, build a more just and generative future on the planet,
Speaker:but maybe one that's also joyful.
Speaker:How can we kind of have fun in the process?
Speaker:And so what the Great Full has evolved into is a platform that offers
Speaker:leadership coaching and training programs, um, and a community of
Speaker:change makers who really have this space to come together and in a
Speaker:very practical way, explore what does it mean for me and what does
Speaker:it mean for us collectively to be a part in creating this change.
Speaker:So there's also a podcast and some other, activities that I do as a part
Speaker:of this platform, but the core of it is really these training programs
Speaker:in the community, and they are specifically, um, focused for women who
Speaker:work in the spaces of sustainability, regeneration, and food systems.
Speaker:So it's, it's quite a specific niche that I'm working with,
Speaker:You're like a couple of years into the full-time on the
Speaker:Great Full, is that right?
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:exactly.
Speaker:I had a kind of three year transition process where I kind of hired a new
Speaker:director at the university and, and stayed in to run some of the programs,
Speaker:but then started tr transitioning out as I built up the offerings and
Speaker:the platform and I'm more of a like.
Speaker:Build a crash pad, check for parachutes, and then jump kind
Speaker:of person, not like a jump.
Speaker:And the parachute will open person.
Speaker:So that's also why I did it that way.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:when I first, when we first chatted, I think you had, you finished your book
Speaker:then, but I know you that was mm-hmm.
Speaker:You, you were part-time on the Great Full that was like, um, a focus.
Speaker:You definitely had a foot, a foot in two worlds and, but you'd already
Speaker:started to put your ideas out there, build your brand, build your confidence
Speaker:around, I guess being more visible and sharing some of these ideas.
Speaker:Although your focus then was people in the food and sustainability
Speaker:sector, wasn't it specifically?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean maybe that's a good point to depart from is kind of
Speaker:that point when I realized I have to leave this perfectly good job
Speaker:actually at the university mm-hmm.
Speaker:And do something as kind of uncharted and disorienting
Speaker:as starting a new thing.
Speaker:Um, and I'd been working in this, um, in building up this center on Food
Speaker:and sustainability, and we were trying to look at the role like research
Speaker:and education and outreach can play in, in, you know, providing some
Speaker:solutions to these big challenges.
Speaker:And I just started to notice myself that I was starting to
Speaker:feel a little bit depleted.
Speaker:I was starting to feel a little bit skeptical.
Speaker:I was starting to not have as many like, creative ideas and excitement
Speaker:around things to bring to life.
Speaker:And that kind of led me in this process of like really questioning,
Speaker:okay, what's, what's going on here?
Speaker:Um, is it the right place for you still?
Speaker:And at the same time, I decided to start doing my, um,
Speaker:advanced yoga teacher training.
Speaker:So I'd done the earlier one a few years before and I thought, you know,
Speaker:that's such a beautiful space to reconnect with yourself and try and
Speaker:get back to what's really important.
Speaker:And so I started that program and I remember coming back
Speaker:from my, um, yoga teachers.
Speaker:Um, retreat center in Spain after doing one of these trainings and, you know,
Speaker:working in a university, you spend 99.9% of the time in your own mind.
Speaker:Like everything is intellectual and everything that's valued
Speaker:is cognitive and intellectual.
Speaker:And so I think that really led me to a place of being quite disconnected
Speaker:from my own emotions, from my own body, from, you know, all the
Speaker:other things that are actually important and make a human life.
Speaker:And so this was this beautiful opportunity in an old farm in the
Speaker:middle of nowhere in Spain to kind of reconnect all those things, my
Speaker:body, my emotions, um, you know, relating in different ways to people.
Speaker:And at the end of that week, I just felt so incredibly energized again.
Speaker:And I was able then from that place to kind of look very seriously at,
Speaker:hmm,
Speaker:something obviously needs to change here.
Speaker:And I remember looking out the plane window on the way home and
Speaker:just having this real deep sense of knowing that you have to leave now.
Speaker:This is what you have to do.
Speaker:Even though I hadn't worked out.
Speaker:What I wanted to do, and as is always the way I had a deep
Speaker:sense of knowing in my body.
Speaker:But then my brain came in and started to question everything.
Speaker:So it was, you know, another year before I actually had the courage
Speaker:to say, no, something has to change.
Speaker:And I had this sense of what was emerging.
Speaker:Like I want to understand better how we actually create change.
Speaker:I wanna play a role in supporting, you know, people to understand what
Speaker:their role is and what leadership looks like in a different way.
Speaker:I wanna, you know, do more around wellbeing.
Speaker:But there were all these like pieces floating around, like clouds in the sky.
Speaker:And I couldn't kind of work out like, what's the string
Speaker:that pulls it all together?
Speaker:What's the, this all comes in.
Speaker:Um, and I still hadn't worked that out when I left the university.
Speaker:But the other thing I knew I wanted to do was write this book, which
Speaker:was bring all this, um, knowledge that I'd had the chance to be
Speaker:connected to at the university about food systems, but bring it into a
Speaker:format that was more digestible.
Speaker:So I actually wrote a cookbook but wove through a lot of content about
Speaker:food and change in our role in it.
Speaker:And I sort of thought, oh, I'll work part-time at the university.
Speaker:I'll part-time work on writing this book and I'll part-time
Speaker:start this new organization.
Speaker:And you can imagine how that, how that unfolded.
Speaker:I ended up like split in 6 million different places and for one year
Speaker:I just kind of spun around all these different things but didn't
Speaker:really get traction on any of them.
Speaker:Um, and so then I decided, okay, let's just focus on the book.
Speaker:Let's get the book done and let's see what emerges from this other stuff.
Speaker:And actually what really helped me was to.
Speaker:and Lana talks a lot about this, Lana, who I really appreciated
Speaker:working with in, in Vision 2020.
Speaker:Start with who.
Speaker:So I'd realized there's all of these topics I care about, but what I wasn't
Speaker:clear on is who do I wanna serve?
Speaker:And at one point it kind of just hit me like, I've worked so long with
Speaker:all these change makers, I wanna serve them, but in particular, who
Speaker:I really wanna serve are women.
Speaker:Because there are still so few women in leadership roles in this space,
Speaker:there's such a strong need for feminine leadership values and approaches,
Speaker:which actually don't necessarily have anything to do with gender.
Speaker:And so when I had that moment of like, this is who I wanna
Speaker:serve, then it became easy.
Speaker:I was like, okay.
Speaker:So surveys and focus groups and discussion groups and understand what
Speaker:people need and see how I can, um.
Speaker:You know, connect that with what I offer, what I love offering, um, what
Speaker:I'm looking to learn and develop.
Speaker:And it was kind of when I could find that interface that, yeah,
Speaker:things fell into place and I got the idea for the first program and
Speaker:launched a better version of that.
Speaker:And then things really got momentum.
Speaker:'cause I had, I felt like I'd found my people and that's what I
Speaker:needed to, to find my way forward.
Speaker:about.
Speaker:So there's two things I'm curious about from, from this
Speaker:situation is what drew you to food sustainability in the first place?
Speaker:What was it that interested you in going there?
Speaker:And then what was your experience of leadership as part of this journey that
Speaker:has, I assume, influenced why you're interested in shifting leadership now?
Speaker:I think it quite a pivotal moment for me was, you know, I guess we all
Speaker:had that moment at school, right?
Speaker:When we, we kind of have to decide at one point, what are we
Speaker:gonna study or what are we, what sort of work are we going to do?
Speaker:And I'd always loved like the natural sciences, I'd love geography.
Speaker:I really cared about at that time, environmental challenges were
Speaker:like a really big concern for me.
Speaker:And I remember going to talk to a careers advisor and said, I
Speaker:think I wanna study geography.
Speaker:I really am interested in this human environment connection.
Speaker:I wanna know how we can fix these big problems.
Speaker:And she told me, oh, science, you're not gonna get a job if you study science.
Speaker:And I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker:And she said, look, you've got decent grades, so why don't
Speaker:you do medicine or engineering?
Speaker:Like that's a career, you get a job.
Speaker:And I was 17 at the time, so I didn't have much ability
Speaker:to stand up for myself.
Speaker:So I thought, oh, okay, well maybe I'll do, maybe I'll do engineering then.
Speaker:And she said, look, there's this environmental engineering
Speaker:program might be interesting.
Speaker:I didn't even look into it that much, but I thought, yeah, maybe
Speaker:that way I'll be able to, you know, learn how to tackle these
Speaker:big environmental challenges.
Speaker:So I went and studied it at university and like two months in actually
Speaker:realized what I had ahead of me for four years, which was just like
Speaker:straight maths science programming, kind of hardcore natural science stuff.
Speaker:And it's not that I didn't love it, but it just was, you know, there's so much
Speaker:more to being a human than this stuff.
Speaker:But I stuck with it.
Speaker:So I just stayed with it.
Speaker:I finished this program and I had the luck and the last.
Speaker:Pretty much the last semester of my program, I was walking through this
Speaker:really miserable, gray concrete building in the chemical engineering department,
Speaker:and there was this like tiny piece of color that caught my eye in the
Speaker:corner of the room, and it was a flyer for a summer school in Switzerland
Speaker:on this thing called sustainability, which this is 25 years ago.
Speaker:So you know, it wasn't so well known then.
Speaker:I picked it up and there were all these people from around the world looking
Speaker:so happy, like hugging each other.
Speaker:And there was the Swiss Alps in the background and I was in the middle of
Speaker:this horrible design project, you know, 12 hours a day in a computer by myself.
Speaker:And I was like, oh, that would be amazing.
Speaker:They probably won't accept me, but I'll apply.
Speaker:I got accepted, um, and found myself a few months later with my backpack,
Speaker:this little car free village in Switzerland and meeting, you know, 40
Speaker:other people from all around the world.
Speaker:I had two weeks to talk about all these big social environmental challenges
Speaker:and how they're connected and it was this like aha moment for me.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:There's this thing called sustainability and it covers everything I care about.
Speaker:and I was, I guess really fortunate.
Speaker:I, um, got invited back the next year to facilitate, uh, the program with the
Speaker:faculty and yeah, there's a lot of side.
Speaker:Parts to this story, but basically I was, um, doing some work in
Speaker:different parts of the world.
Speaker:I got to collaborate with them again in Costa Rica when I was
Speaker:doing some volunteer work there.
Speaker:And then I was offered this job back in Switzerland, um,
Speaker:working on sustainability.
Speaker:And that's where, as I mentioned before, you know, I started to look at all
Speaker:these different challenges and just food just kept showing up in all of them.
Speaker:And at the time it wasn't really being discussed in the frame of
Speaker:these big sustainability challenges.
Speaker:So I just got really curious about it.
Speaker:Um, I had a chance as a consultant to work on a big project in the energy
Speaker:space and I was like, oh, this is interesting, but oh, it'd be my dream
Speaker:job if I could do this working on food.
Speaker:'cause I think it's so important.
Speaker:And then a few years later I came back to Switzerland.
Speaker:They were starting the center exactly the same thing, but on food.
Speaker:And I was lucky enough to get the job.
Speaker:Um, so that's, that's how I found myself there.
Speaker:And I think for a lot of that time I was working in a very male dominated
Speaker:space, like coming from engineering, um, a lot of the fields that I worked
Speaker:in, I was often the only woman.
Speaker:I remember my first job as a graduate going out onto the job site and
Speaker:firstly, nobody taking me seriously.
Speaker:No one talking to me and then making all kinds of jokes
Speaker:like, oh, this is Australia.
Speaker:Mind you like, oh, love.
Speaker:Why don't you go on a date with us first, and then we can talk about it?
Speaker:And so I just felt very uncomfortable in a lot of situations
Speaker:and I felt like this is my.
Speaker:Issue to fix this.
Speaker:I've gotta show I'm strong, I'm tough, I can do this, I can like,
Speaker:go ahead with the best of them here.
Speaker:I didn't ever see the systemic aspects of this.
Speaker:Um, and it continued, you know, why then worked in a university for
Speaker:so long and it's still very, um, male dominated in the leadership.
Speaker:It's very hierarchical institution.
Speaker:It's very old fashioned.
Speaker:And so I saw a lot of things happen there that I feel have at the
Speaker:basis of them, like fear, power, struggles, um, egoic ways of,
Speaker:of interacting with each other.
Speaker:Um, a lot of kind of territory building types of things.
Speaker:Um, and that just kind of never, never meshed with me very well.
Speaker:And I started to understand more the systemic issues at play here and see,
Speaker:oh, okay, this actually isn't okay.
Speaker:It's not about me, you know, changing to fit into this and
Speaker:succeed in this system, but actually.
Speaker:Wow, there's a lot we need to change in this system and it's not up to me alone.
Speaker:So how do we come together with others who also feel that way and
Speaker:try to imagine new possibilities and ways of working together?
Speaker:Um, there's this really nice book, it's called Reinventing Organizations
Speaker:that came out about 10 years ago.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And there he does a really nice job of, you know, unpacking how
Speaker:we've evolved, the ways that we run organizations and lead organizations.
Speaker:And, you know, for the longest time we've always thought we
Speaker:need to be a triangle, right?
Speaker:There's those, the top with all this power and those at the bottom who are.
Speaker:Exploited in some way, shape or form.
Speaker:And then underneath that, even nature, which is, you know, not
Speaker:even considered a part of this.
Speaker:And we really need, I think, to think more in circles, to see how
Speaker:everything is connected, how we are all connected, um, and to completely
Speaker:reimagine how we we work, um, and what leadership means in that context.
Speaker:I really appreciate that you know, that even that this, your story
Speaker:of how that's kind of colored and, and not even colored, but
Speaker:just I, I see the connection now.
Speaker:Your own experience of being in these environments and now this
Speaker:need rather than to fit in, but to.
Speaker:Make the environment change around you, which I think is really a
Speaker:powerful message, uh, and empowering.
Speaker:and this is where, uh, leading into this idea for me is like for people who
Speaker:are maybe not f familiar with Frederick Laou and reinventing organizations
Speaker:and these ideas of different types of leadership, maybe like yourself,
Speaker:like, is this the only way to lead?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Could you, from your perspective, in your opinion, you've described
Speaker:how it works, fear led territorial triangle, what that means in terms
Speaker:of, the repercussions of that.
Speaker:What is not work?
Speaker:What, what are the effects of that,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, I think if we'll sit for a moment and sense into how we
Speaker:feel right now, individually and collectively like we sense things, I.
Speaker:Are not working how they should be.
Speaker:There's so much pain in the world in terms of like ecological
Speaker:destruction, but also pain in social systems and injustice.
Speaker:And even at an individual level, like so many people are exhausted and
Speaker:burnt out and overwhelmed and like we, we can't imagine a more joyful and
Speaker:just place from exhaustion, burnout.
Speaker:So, mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um, I don't believe it's effective.
Speaker:When we look long term, we might, in the short term, more effectively
Speaker:tick off to-do lists and hit goals and KPIs and all of these things.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But what's the cost of it in the long term and what are we actually
Speaker:working towards in the long term?
Speaker:And this is something I battle with a lot internally because I have a very
Speaker:strong orientation to that myself.
Speaker:And I know a part of that's conditioning.
Speaker:I'm very into the Enneagram and I work with a so trigger warning for all of
Speaker:you here, don't love the Enneagram.
Speaker:Um, but as an Enneagram one, like I have a lot of those tendencies.
Speaker:It's a lot of my.
Speaker:kind of default strategy to try and fix things and bring structure
Speaker:and make things efficient.
Speaker:And so I do work with that a lot in myself and I have to constantly question
Speaker:and kind of, dance with new ways myself.
Speaker:But, um, I think we all see the indicators that what we've done
Speaker:in the past has brought us to a place that indicates it's not
Speaker:working on a social level, on an environmental level, but also on this
Speaker:personal level of feeling exhausted and burnt out and disconnected.
Speaker:Like I think that's at the essence of our challenge.
Speaker:We're essentially believing we are separate from the world around us,
Speaker:from nature, from people around us.
Speaker:And the whole system we're a part of keeps perpetuating that.
Speaker:And we have this deep seated questioning constantly of like, am I enough?
Speaker:And we try and fill that with doing more or acquiring more, or climbing up
Speaker:hierarchies and all of these things.
Speaker:But the essential.
Speaker:A topic underneath it is more a spiritual one.
Speaker:And it's, it's how do we find this enoughness by having more space
Speaker:where we can get in contact with what it is to actually be human, to
Speaker:be more in our essential self and to connect with all these other aspects
Speaker:of life that aren't in our head.
Speaker:Our emotions, our body, our relationships, spirituality.
Speaker:Um, this more integrated way of being able to live in the world, would
Speaker:allow us a more integrated way of leading, which I think would lead
Speaker:us to a more balanced and healthy, um, systems, which would allow us
Speaker:to kind of live in balance with and as a part of the natural world.
Speaker:thank you.
Speaker:I'm grateful.
Speaker:That's really no, because it's really clarified for me this idea when you were
Speaker:talking about hierarchical structures and you're talking about separation.
Speaker:There's like the boss, the managers, the employees.
Speaker:Even that concept of separation starts to bring, take us apart.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And then that being like a fundamental story of us being separate because
Speaker:of hierarchies and then also being separate from the world or the earth
Speaker:or the planet, whatever we call it.
Speaker:Nature, because we are doing something to it.
Speaker:I am doing something to my underlings and my underlings are
Speaker:doing something to their under.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:'cause we're trying to push things through.
Speaker:Mm. And that feels like it comes from somewhere.
Speaker:And I, I wanted to rewind a bit 'cause you did talk about the Enneagram
Speaker:and I know that something, and you'd
Speaker:go back there.
Speaker:That's
Speaker:one of the things, but more broadly on that is this idea of self-knowledge.
Speaker:Because I think, you know, you, when you talk about leadership from the inside
Speaker:out, there are many other paradigms and frameworks for self knowledge.
Speaker:But ultimately it sounds like that was a key because you, you, what I
Speaker:heard from you was a self-awareness.
Speaker:Like yeah, I am one of those people.
Speaker:Or I can be like that.
Speaker:And at the same time, there are different ways of doing it and I,
Speaker:my my suspicion is that many people don't realize there's other ways.
Speaker:They just think this is the only way 'cause I am like
Speaker:this or this is how I am type.
Speaker:Or they don't even know how they are, they just instinctively move through
Speaker:the world, which causes unconscious.
Speaker:I unconscious.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Maybe share a bit more about your thoughts around that
Speaker:and how that works with you.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think that is one of the biggest challenges, right?
Speaker:How do we get ourselves out of the machine enough that we can take
Speaker:enough space to become conscious about what's unconsciously driving us.
Speaker:Because I think, you know, the world we live in encourages to
Speaker:us to just live on autopilot.
Speaker:Everything's fast and quick and we're overwhelmed.
Speaker:And unless we can step out of that enough to.
Speaker:Start to really understand what's driving us at a deeper level.
Speaker:It's extremely hard to change anything.
Speaker:And I've worked with, you know, you've mentioned there's so
Speaker:many frameworks and paradigms.
Speaker:I've probably worked with all of them.
Speaker:I've really explored so many different ones and none has had such a profound
Speaker:impact on me as the Enneagram has.
Speaker:And I'm a quite skeptical, generally of these systems.
Speaker:I really wanna know where they've come from and, you know, what's
Speaker:the story of the people that are pushing it and all of those things.
Speaker:So I didn't, I don't come into it lightly.
Speaker:Um, but I stay with it because I've seen that it's, you
Speaker:know, profoundly impactful.
Speaker:Not only with me, with people I work on one-on-one.
Speaker:I mean, one of my programs lead the change.
Speaker:The first module we work with the Enneagram in a group, um, of 20
Speaker:people, which is just fascinating to unpack together and understand.
Speaker:And I like the tool because it's not just a personality tool, it's.
Speaker:I don't like this term, so it will probably turn a lot of people off, but
Speaker:it's sometimes called a psychospiritual tool, and that's what I like about it.
Speaker:It's helping us see that like it's not putting you in a box, it's
Speaker:helping you understand this is the box you might have built around
Speaker:yourself in terms of this is like your strategies, your personality, the
Speaker:things you do to try and navigate in the world and the patterns in that.
Speaker:But who you are is not that your essential self is something deeper.
Speaker:It's one who's able to observe those things.
Speaker:And so I think the Enneagram is this very effective key.
Speaker:Or maybe like, it's like a fast track though.
Speaker:I don't like that term because it, you know, it's not as organic as I
Speaker:would like it to sound, but it maybe it reveals to us more directly.
Speaker:What these patterns are.
Speaker:And then we can start to observe them.
Speaker:We can start to question them and finally start to practice other
Speaker:ways of being and acting, which open up new possibilities for us.
Speaker:And ultimately, it's all about finding balance, right?
Speaker:Being able to find balance in ourselves, balance in the way that we relate
Speaker:to each other, balance in the world.
Speaker:And I think it's, yeah, I think it's a beautiful tool for that.
Speaker:it's a very deep tool.
Speaker:And I think one of the challenges with it being so popularized is people
Speaker:often only see the surface level and you see things like, you know.
Speaker:Blog articles on decorate your home according to your Enneagram type or
Speaker:cosmetics, your Enneagram type, which is rubbish because it is really such a deep
Speaker:tool and it helps us not only see our patterns, but understand what are some
Speaker:growth pathways, what are some things we can experiment with that ultimately free
Speaker:us, which is what we're trying to do.
Speaker:Well, I think this is, I I like the, the fact that you use the word patterns.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:uh, and I think of like even just furrows in a field, you
Speaker:just like fall into it and you don't even realize you're there.
Speaker:And this idea how you, what I'm hearing is break these patterns.
Speaker:'cause these are patterns like you said in the Enneagram.
Speaker:And all of these tools are patterns of, of personality maybe soften
Speaker:rather than break, soften pattern break.
Speaker:But yeah.
Speaker:And if I was gonna extrapolate that, because there are patterns within
Speaker:ourselves, but then with those patterns within society, there's
Speaker:patterns within the way we believe the world works or how we should lead.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:I see how this is connected to the softening of all of these patterns
Speaker:that you're trying to work towards.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:With that being said, uh, we had this conversation about your work and I
Speaker:wanted to just hear more about, or maybe get you to share a bit more about,
Speaker:you say you work with female leaders, Jamie, but at the beginning it wasn't
Speaker:so you weren't just focused on that.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But somehow a pattern emerged.
Speaker:I think, well, in designing the first program, as I mentioned, I
Speaker:didn't have the idea in my head that I would only work with women.
Speaker:Um, I, I thought we need to bring a lot of these approaches, which are
Speaker:often coded or termed feminine values in leadership, into the whole world.
Speaker:It benefits all of us.
Speaker:We are all suffering from this imbalance.
Speaker:and it's relevant for everyone.
Speaker:And I don't, I didn't wanna perpetuate an kind of exclusive approach.
Speaker:I wanted it to be inclusive that anyone could join, and that
Speaker:was my mindset going into it.
Speaker:And then I opened up applications for the first round and only women applied.
Speaker:And it was the, um, kind of pilot round.
Speaker:I just wanted to work with 20 people to see how this worked.
Speaker:So 20 women applied and we went through this four month program
Speaker:together and it was a really beautiful experience also for me.
Speaker:I loved every moment of it.
Speaker:And at the end we had a really interesting conversation around how was
Speaker:it to be in this women's only space?
Speaker:And so many talked about how nourishing it was, how supportive
Speaker:it was, how important it was in realizing, ah, I'm not alone with
Speaker:this, this questioning things, but thinking it's me that needs to change.
Speaker:Or really doubting myself and feeling like an imposter.
Speaker:This is like a syndrome I have to fix for myself and to realize
Speaker:there's others feeling like that.
Speaker:And that if we collectively talk about it, we can actually kind of
Speaker:feel much more empowered to speak up.
Speaker:Outside of this safe space and bring it more into the
Speaker:systems that we're a part of.
Speaker:And we had a lot of discussion around, you know, when there is inequality,
Speaker:you do need these spaces, right?
Speaker:That help bring those who are underrepresented, um, to give more
Speaker:support and resources and power so that, um, there is even an
Speaker:opportunity to kind of challenge, challenge the systems that are.
Speaker:And so as a result of that and the discussion with that first cohort,
Speaker:then yeah, I kind of made that decision with them that, okay,
Speaker:this is a place for aspiring women leaders working on these topics.
Speaker:And, um, we still talk about how do we bring these approaches more broadly.
Speaker:I'm also in conversation with people, who, you know, might wanna work with
Speaker:groups of men around exactly these topics with exactly this content.
Speaker:And I'm super happy to support them.
Speaker:I think this work is useful for everyone.
Speaker:I've also had to question deeply like.
Speaker:Um, what is my work to do?
Speaker:What is my work?
Speaker:It's not to do.
Speaker:I really feel in my flow, in my power, in my space when I'm
Speaker:working in these, um, environments where I'm supporting other women.
Speaker:And I really strongly feel that's my work to do.
Speaker:Um, and I'm happy to support others who wanna serve others.
Speaker:Um, and actually I was able to support some of the women that went
Speaker:through all the programs that I have, um, through their own coaching
Speaker:training as well as a mentor.
Speaker:And one of them really does wanna work with, men in leadership roles
Speaker:to try and bring these approaches in.
Speaker:So I see my role as kind of supporting that indirectly, but, um, holding the
Speaker:space seems to be valued and important.
Speaker:And so that's why I do it.
Speaker:And the more I'm in it, the more I'm like, yes, we need this.
Speaker:It makes total sense.
Speaker:So, yeah, although it wasn't intentional, it
Speaker:was a beautiful evolution.
Speaker:What would you say this has meant in terms of this idea of niching
Speaker:marketing business side of things by, discovering that there is this
Speaker:need and how you present yourself.
Speaker:I just wanna know if that has an impacted on, on the
Speaker:business side of things for you.
Speaker:so I mean, I still even struggle with the word business
Speaker:to be completely honest.
Speaker:I've come out of an academic not-for-profit space.
Speaker:I see my organization as being about impact first and foremost.
Speaker:And actually, I'm still struggling with what is the legal structure of it.
Speaker:Uh, based on what my options are in Switzerland, is it a foundation?
Speaker:Is it not-for-profit?
Speaker:Is it an association?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Is it a business?
Speaker:Um, but what I did know leaving so many years of working in a
Speaker:donor dependent space is that I wanted a break from fundraising.
Speaker:I was really sick of selling things to donors, when they might
Speaker:not have necessarily understood what those who were benefiting
Speaker:from these programs really needed.
Speaker:So I wanted to be able to work in this direct way of who am I serving, what
Speaker:do they need, and doing it directly.
Speaker:Um, but I do still consider it a social business model in the sense
Speaker:that I offer a lot of scholarships.
Speaker:I have, um, a lot of flexible pricing options so that cost is not a barrier
Speaker:to entry That does mean sometimes on the backend we are not able to
Speaker:streamline things as much as we would like to because I kind of negotiate
Speaker:one-on-one with people that make sure that it fits where they are.
Speaker:Um, and because I'm serving women all over the world, some who, you know,
Speaker:some are setting up not-for-profits in Kenya, some are working in companies
Speaker:in Switzerland, like their ability to pay is so different and so.
Speaker:I would say I found a model that works.
Speaker:Um, and I'm still trying to work out what's the best way to do this.
Speaker:And a big question constantly for me is like, what does scaling even mean?
Speaker:I wanna be able to impact more people, reach more people, support more
Speaker:people that wanna do this work, to maybe have a home to do that work.
Speaker:But I don't wanna perpetuate these structures, um, which
Speaker:I've just said need to change.
Speaker:And yet, you know, the reality of our economy and our legal
Speaker:structures require that.
Speaker:So I'm a little bit in the messy middle without it the moment.
Speaker:Um, but that said, I've been able to build something that works
Speaker:viably to at least, you know, be.
Speaker:A basic livelihood for me and, um, to make sure people can
Speaker:access the programs in that way.
Speaker:So yeah, becoming a business has definitely been a long journey for me.
Speaker:There's been a lot of mindset shifts also around like charging for my
Speaker:time, which I had never done before.
Speaker:Um, finding a way to balance that accessibility with viability of
Speaker:like, people I really wanna pay people who contribute in our programs
Speaker:appropriately and things like that.
Speaker:Um, and just trying to find a way to get the word out about this work
Speaker:to the people that conserve in a way that doesn't feel icky for me.
Speaker:And like, marketing is still a word that I'm like, so just, you know, like
Speaker:I have a newsletter once a month, and spend a lot of time there, like really
Speaker:curating things that I hope are useful for people that are aligned with these
Speaker:topics that yes, let them know about the things that we're offering, but in
Speaker:a way that's still already serving them.
Speaker:I got rid of all social media platforms 'cause they were just overwhelming
Speaker:me focusing on LinkedIn and you know, trying to show up there in a way
Speaker:that I feel adds value to people.
Speaker:So I'd say I'm still on a journey, but what I really liked about being
Speaker:a part of Vision 2020 was that you held space for a program where.
Speaker:I didn't have to come in and be like, full on business.
Speaker:And I'd been, I'd been in a program previously that I actually left
Speaker:because it was so not aligned with my values, even though on paper
Speaker:it was, you know, all of this like sales funnels and Google ads.
Speaker:And I honestly, every webinar I almost wanted to vomit because
Speaker:I was like, this is, I don't wanna be a part of this system.
Speaker:Do I have to do this to be able to add value somehow?
Speaker:Um, so I really like that in your space that, you know,
Speaker:you really offered a lot of
Speaker:lightness.
Speaker:I love, I love that.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:We're gonna have to add that to the marketing.
Speaker:We host webinars that, no, you might want to vomit.
Speaker:as soon as you mission funnels, I think a lot of people have a visceral react.
Speaker:I do.
Speaker:Anyway.
Speaker:It's like, oh, doesn't feel it.
Speaker:Very
Speaker:mechanistic and very, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:even there it's like, well, you, why do you limit your programs to 20 people?
Speaker:Like you could scale this and have a hundred rah And that was like, this is
Speaker:the worst, you know, this feels awful.
Speaker:I wanna be in connection with people I'm working with.
Speaker:I don't wanna talk to my computer and then well sail away on my yacht
Speaker:while people pay for a course.
Speaker:It sounds awful to me.
Speaker:So, yeah, I, I also had to realize what's the type of business
Speaker:that feels aligned for me?
Speaker:And I was glad to be able to explore that.
Speaker:In the space that you create.
Speaker:Feels like you've always had that clarity, would you say, in terms of
Speaker:just whether it's decisiveness or just, um, par on, basically on like
Speaker:how you wanna do this, like, not have something that's too full in
Speaker:terms of people having it intimate.
Speaker:Um, the design of everything you've done's already,
Speaker:topnotch, you know, everything.
Speaker:You curate a, a beautiful community it seems like.
Speaker:So it feels like you've always had that, would you say you've
Speaker:always had that sense of.
Speaker:Don't wanna say taste, 'cause that sounds a bit, uh, loaded.
Speaker:But you know what I mean, in terms of just like, am I, and, and I,
Speaker:I know for detail, but also just clarity on the vision ultimately
Speaker:of like how you wanna serve.
Speaker:And you mentioned diversity is important, obviously not necessarily
Speaker:men, but in terms of international reach, affordability, all of that stuff.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think those are all things I feel like I, I feel it in
Speaker:my body if it's not right.
Speaker:So sometimes I feel it more than I can, faster than I can articulate it.
Speaker:And I also find I often need to like do the thing and
Speaker:create it and play with it.
Speaker:And then I can speak about it much better.
Speaker:And I'm always surprised when people tell me, oh, your website's so clear.
Speaker:Because I'm like, is it, I dunno if I'm able to communicate
Speaker:clearly what I'm doing.
Speaker:Well we do use your
Speaker:manifesto as a bit of a, a, benchmark, I think for people in terms of
Speaker:putting their manifest together.
Speaker:Well it, you know, this was offered as an exercise in the program and it
Speaker:came at a time when I was really trying to get clarity on what I'm doing and
Speaker:I liked this idea of going at it in a really creative and emergent way.
Speaker:So rather than kind of, you know, a manifesto that's very structured, I
Speaker:actually kind of just sat down with a tea and I put on a candle and some nice
Speaker:music and I just started to kind of.
Speaker:Almost like in a poetic way, just let sentences come through me.
Speaker:Like, what do I care about?
Speaker:What's important?
Speaker:What do I hope for this space?
Speaker:Um, just kind of, I had this huge piece of paper, like you can't see it on my
Speaker:screen, but it was huge, like a three.
Speaker:And I was just writing and writing and writing.
Speaker:I think it was over the Christmas break or something, and then I put it
Speaker:down for a couple of days and I came back and kind of highlighted like,
Speaker:what really still speaks to me here?
Speaker:And then went through a process of kind of trying to, no, like
Speaker:the word streamline comes, but it immediately feels wrong.
Speaker:Um, somehow refine it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In a way that would speak with people, speak to people.
Speaker:And I came up with something and then, um, yeah, I, I'd worked with
Speaker:these designers in Australia on my book and they had always done
Speaker:a really beautiful job of kind of bringing to life the, all the
Speaker:different things that I threw at them.
Speaker:And I just said to them, look, you know, could we just try and make
Speaker:this look compelling so people pick it up and it's digestible.
Speaker:Maybe they just, their eyes drawn to just one little piece and that's
Speaker:what they need to hear today and they can let the rest of it go.
Speaker:It doesn't have to be this overwhelming thing.
Speaker:Um, and they came back with the first iteration of this and I thought they
Speaker:did a really nice job of Yeah, helping make it digestible, which is always
Speaker:something that I care about given how overwhelmed we are in this day and age.
Speaker:Because you mentioned before about being really in tune to your body and
Speaker:your, you know, sensing, and this is obviously part of the theme today and
Speaker:you mentioned when you were thinking about transitioning to doing this
Speaker:full-time, being super self-aware.
Speaker:I dunno if the Enneagram was a thing for you then, but this sense of mm-hmm.
Speaker:I can feel my mindset.
Speaker:Getting a bit more fearful.
Speaker:And you mentioned that idea of like, you can just feel things weren't
Speaker:right in terms of how you were feeling about where you currently
Speaker:were and this need to, you had something to pull you forward,
Speaker:but even then it was quite early.
Speaker:So I dunno, maybe just that idea of trusting in your own sensing
Speaker:really in terms of, um, making a big decision in a maybe drawn out way
Speaker:over time, which I think is sensible, but just that feeling of Yeah, I
Speaker:know something doesn't feel right.
Speaker:Well, I would also say I haven't always been like that.
Speaker:It's been a long process for me of valuing anything in my
Speaker:life over other than my mind.
Speaker:Like, you know, especially being so long in academia, that
Speaker:was just such a strong focus.
Speaker:And it's actually through the Enneagram that I started to realize.
Speaker:I do actually have a strong felt sense of things, but I often denied it.
Speaker:Or I often wasn't in a place where I could connect to my body and my emotions
Speaker:because I was just, all my energy's up here and I was just kind of too busy.
Speaker:Um, and when I look back in my life, there's actually been
Speaker:a few major things and I felt them very strongly in my body.
Speaker:And at the time, I didn't know what they were.
Speaker:Like.
Speaker:I remember when I was 15, I picked up a guidebook in my, um, my
Speaker:parents' house, and it had a pitch.
Speaker:It was for Switzerland and Italy, and I had this incredible like, shiver through
Speaker:my body and almost tears in my eyes.
Speaker:And I'm like, that's super weird.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:But anyway, now I, now I live my life between these two countries.
Speaker:Um, the first time I came to Switzerland, I was, um, on a
Speaker:train going past where I now live.
Speaker:And I had this very strong, I. Feeling in my body.
Speaker:I didn't know what it was at the time, but kind of, I now live there.
Speaker:Another not so great story.
Speaker:I once had a very strong feeling, um, when I walked into a boyfriend's house
Speaker:that something was very wrong and I went into his room, opened one of 10
Speaker:cupboard doors, and found a girl sitting in the bottom of the cupboard, which
Speaker:is obviously, oh my God, not, not a great thing, but I felt it in my body.
Speaker:There was this crazy instinct that somehow pulled me to
Speaker:that exact cupboard door.
Speaker:So did
Speaker:you open the other cupboard as well?
Speaker:I was fine.
Speaker:Make sure there was, oh no,
Speaker:that was enough.
Speaker:It was also a friend, so it was like a double whammy situation.
Speaker:Oh my God.
Speaker:Anyway, um, and just to say like, I've always had this feeling, but
Speaker:I didn't necessarily know it or trust it, and I've gotten much
Speaker:better also ex examples like that, of trusting there's something here.
Speaker:This is information, this is intelligence.
Speaker:This is wisdom that you can trust as much as something
Speaker:that your mind can come to.
Speaker:Um, and being able to integrate those.
Speaker:Different sources of wisdom and inspiration, I think make it easier
Speaker:for me to trust that even if my mind hasn't worked this out, even if I don't
Speaker:see exactly what is needed, I have to trust to go in this direction and
Speaker:things will emerge and things will, will, you'll work it out along the way.
Speaker:And that was really hard for me.
Speaker:I have to say this, I make it sound, um, like smooth this transition,
Speaker:but really for one year it was very not smooth because I, um, I couldn't
Speaker:quite articulate what I wanted.
Speaker:I couldn't think it, I couldn't structure it.
Speaker:I felt it, but I, I didn't really know where I was going.
Speaker:And we did this nice exercise right in, um, at the start of 2020.
Speaker:I think we kind of had to feel into what was like in your way.
Speaker:And I realized, I thought I didn't have clarity.
Speaker:I. But actually I do, like, I have enough clarity to take the first
Speaker:step, and if I take the first step, I'll get enough clarity
Speaker:to take the next step and so on.
Speaker:And, and that's how I've started to move.
Speaker:And it's helped me a lot to stop thinking I have to have the five
Speaker:year vision and plan, you know, the very linear approach and
Speaker:the crash
Speaker:master feeling to what's emerging.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I, I wanted to, because I, I wanna, I wanna talk to that experience
Speaker:because it's very easy to just say, trust your gut, everywhere.
Speaker:On Instagram.
Speaker:It's, it's a t-shirt, whatever it is.
Speaker:But there is a, there's a journey for some people.
Speaker:I think to, to connect with someone who is on that journey.
Speaker:What do you believe is the mistrust that some of us have around feelings?
Speaker:What is it about thinking that we value more than feeling
Speaker:Well, I think our whole society tells us that's what we should value.
Speaker:Like we live in a system from.
Speaker:Depending where we are in the world, but I mean, in most western
Speaker:schooling systems we have basically no connection with our emotions, with
Speaker:our body, except maybe in sport like, uh, in a kind of more rigid way.
Speaker:We have little around relationships.
Speaker:We have nothing around spirituality.
Speaker:So we are already being conditioned to overuse that part of ourselves and to
Speaker:over rely on that part of ourselves.
Speaker:So it's no wonder that even if we get a sense, oh, something else
Speaker:is maybe telling me something here, we don't trust it as much.
Speaker:'cause the whole world's telling us, well, it's not as important.
Speaker:Um, and I think, it's also important to talk about this, I
Speaker:guess in a trauma informed way.
Speaker:Like for many people, it doesn't feel safe to be in the body or it's
Speaker:very, um, triggering or challenging to, receive some of these signals.
Speaker:And, and so there's a lot.
Speaker:in working with the body that I think we need to be sensitive with about and that
Speaker:it's not as easy as it first sounds.
Speaker:I think the other challenge is, you know, we are spending so much of
Speaker:our lives either in the future or in the past because that's where
Speaker:our mind is always taking us.
Speaker:Literally, the only way to be in the now is in our body.
Speaker:It's through our body.
Speaker:And there's also often a discomfort in stopping and slowing down and being
Speaker:in the now that's when the emotions that we haven't been tackling come up.
Speaker:That's when the thoughts we've been suppressing come up.
Speaker:That's when the discomfort in our body is there and, and we have to face it.
Speaker:And so I understand why it's really hard to go there and why
Speaker:it's been really hard for me too.
Speaker:Um, and it's also why it's so important that collectively
Speaker:we hold more space for it.
Speaker:So we, we are more supported in the process.
Speaker:No, I'm, I'm, I think that's really important for us, myself and Laurence.
Speaker:I think with the work we do, and I assume also with the work with you,
Speaker:what you do, it isn't just step one, step two, step three, you're done, you
Speaker:ticked it off, other stuff comes up.
Speaker:You know, we talk about within the programs and, you know, start writing
Speaker:in public, start sharing your stuff.
Speaker:and I, it took me a while to click this idea of being trauma informed
Speaker:so that the experience of something, doing something that feels really
Speaker:alien to you, can just be physically, well, emotionally incapacitating
Speaker:to a certain extent, freezing.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, I'm curious with you, like, you know, this is a new type of leadership.
Speaker:We're talking about feelings, we're gonna try to, about connecting,
Speaker:trying to create safe space.
Speaker:What does that mean for you in terms of thinking about
Speaker:this new type of leadership?
Speaker:What, what, how are we needing to be not only with ourselves, but with
Speaker:others to allow for more of this?
Speaker:To work through ourselves.
Speaker:' Yeah.
Speaker:I mean I essentially, we're trying to explore new ways
Speaker:of being, doing and relating.
Speaker:and it's even new for us to think about being and relating because
Speaker:we focus so much on the doing.
Speaker:So that's the first thing, right?
Speaker:Is, is even being willing to direct enough resources and time
Speaker:to anything that's not doing is the first step to any of this.
Speaker:Um, I think the second thing is to realize that this like process
Speaker:of reconnection to ourselves, to others, to the planet.
Speaker:It's inside out work.
Speaker:Yes, we have to do it ourselves, but that doesn't mean it's individual work.
Speaker:So I think we do need to do it in community.
Speaker:And that's actually why I love running group programs because we have that
Speaker:collective experience and it's not just this individual experience.
Speaker:and I really just feel it's about, you know, making enough space for
Speaker:all of these aspects of being human.
Speaker:The, the feeling, the, the body, the mind, the relational,
Speaker:but also the spiritual.
Speaker:And in all of those spaces, having enough time to like
Speaker:increase our awareness.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Deepen our understanding.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But we always think that we can jump from like awareness to
Speaker:change, but it's a long process.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We need to.
Speaker:From awareness, start to understand, then we need to
Speaker:start practicing new ways.
Speaker:And practicing is like we are fumbling.
Speaker:We we're trying things for the first time.
Speaker:It's awkward.
Speaker:It doesn't always work.
Speaker:We need to iterate.
Speaker:Um, and it's only through practicing new ways many times
Speaker:that we actually create change.
Speaker:So I think we need to be much more generous in offering spaces for
Speaker:practice, um, in ourselves, in our families, in our organizations, um,
Speaker:because it's not just like we realize and then we change it and it's done.
Speaker:It's like there's always this messy, we're always in the messy middle.
Speaker:Um, and there's value in that too.
Speaker:So I think that's, yeah, one of many aspects to that.
Speaker:I mean, essentially the question I'm really interested in at the moment,
Speaker:and I think that lies under this, is like, what does it mean to make
Speaker:our contribution from a place of love rather than a place of fear?
Speaker:And there's a lot that's buried underneath that.
Speaker:Um, but I think right now mostly we are showing up from a place of
Speaker:fear and it's understandable given how way our systems are structured.
Speaker:I had a very funny, um, experience recently.
Speaker:I was at a place, it's relevant, it's funny because the name
Speaker:of it is The Happy Farm.
Speaker:Um, so Happy Startup School is also a happy farm and it's at a
Speaker:place called Plum Village, which is Han's Retreat Center in France.
Speaker:And I was just there, there was a meeting of this, um, UNDP,
Speaker:conscious Food Systems Alliance.
Speaker:Anyway, one of the practices when you're living in the monastic community there
Speaker:is to have, uh, 20 minutes of silence.
Speaker:At the start of every meal.
Speaker:So you really sit and breathe and notice your food and it's really
Speaker:uncomfortable and really hard.
Speaker:But in that process, um, the first meal we had, there was this thing in my
Speaker:bowl and I was like, this is delicious.
Speaker:I wonder what it is.
Speaker:And I asked when we could start speaking.
Speaker:I asked one of the monks and he said, oh, it's Tempe.
Speaker:I'm like, I hate Tempe.
Speaker:Normally it's the worst food ever, like this terrible relic from the sixties.
Speaker:And he said, oh no, this is a special Tempe.
Speaker:We make it here ourselves.
Speaker:There's one monk and you can go and speak to him if you want.
Speaker:And so a couple of days later, a few of us like found this little
Speaker:hidden path through the forest and we went to this little hut where
Speaker:the Tempe monk makes his Tempe.
Speaker:And we arrived and he had his little hat off to the side
Speaker:and this twinkle in his eye.
Speaker:And he was like, I just blew up another centrifuge.
Speaker:And it's all these bits thrown everywhere.
Speaker:Um, and he then proceeded to tell us like how he went about creating this,
Speaker:in my opinion, best Tempe in the world.
Speaker:And, um.
Speaker:As I was watching him, I just realized, wow, this is what it means to work
Speaker:and contribute from a place of love.
Speaker:He was just so full of this playful, experimental, joyful energy.
Speaker:Anyone who was interested kind of, he had more and
Speaker:more monks come and join him.
Speaker:And then they, in this very non-hierarchical way,
Speaker:played around with this.
Speaker:They made crazy control systems and it's this huge elaborate venture now
Speaker:they make this amazing Tempe, and it just made me really reflect, like when
Speaker:they live in this way that they do, they spend a lot of time in contemplation,
Speaker:in meditation, in community.
Speaker:In being the doing that emerges from that is very, very different.
Speaker:And I was like, oh, this is a beautiful example of working
Speaker:from love rather than fear.
Speaker:Like you could feel it.
Speaker:And I was thinking, how amazing if that could, if we could all do
Speaker:a little bit more of that and it could ripple out into the world.
Speaker:I'm guessing they don't sell it outside of, uh, plum Village.
Speaker:No, they don't.
Speaker:They just make it for themselves.
Speaker:And that's, that was interesting.
Speaker:He said, people always come and they say, yeah, but how can we,
Speaker:um, how can we scale this up?
Speaker:How can I export this?
Speaker:How can we rah rah?
Speaker:And he's always like, Hey, I'm happy to help you make your own Tempe, but
Speaker:like, that's not what I'm here for.
Speaker:I already feed 150 something people, you know?
Speaker:And I think that's beautiful.
Speaker:That also that setting of the boundaries, right?
Speaker:Like this is enough.
Speaker:Thank you so much, Michelle.
Speaker:Really appreciated the stories more than anything else and
Speaker:just how that connects with all, all the work that you're doing.
Speaker:Um, if people wanna find out more about what you do or is there
Speaker:anything that's coming up that you'd like to talk about to share
Speaker:so that they can spread the message?
Speaker:Yeah, sure.
Speaker:Well, first of all, the easiest is you've put a link at the
Speaker:bottom here that says, learn more.
Speaker:Learn more about leading change from the inside out.
Speaker:So that's where you'll find my website.
Speaker:at the bottom there, you can sign up for the newsletter, ENA, who's here.
Speaker:Her and her and I spend time each month really curating something that
Speaker:just gives fresh insights on what does it mean to kind of eat, live and
Speaker:lead, in a way that supports our own wellbeing and the world's wellbeing.
Speaker:The new project I'm working on at the moment is a podcast
Speaker:and a book, uh, which is all around the emotions of change.
Speaker:So when we show up wanting to create positive change in the world, it's.
Speaker:Actually totally normal that a lot of emotions are involved, but
Speaker:we don't really talk about it.
Speaker:And so, um, I'm talking with really inspiring change
Speaker:makers around the world.
Speaker:Um, really kind of digging behind the, the screen, getting under the
Speaker:surface of, you know, what happens when self-doubt shows up, when fear shows
Speaker:up, when there's guilt of privilege, when there's grief, when there's, you
Speaker:know, how do we, how do we connect to our joy and love and all these things.
Speaker:So that's fun.
Speaker:And that will also be a book that comes out next year, um, hopefully as a, yeah.
Speaker:Really helpful guidebook for anybody that's trying to navigate that
Speaker:path and maybe feels alone with, all of the very normal hurdles
Speaker:that we encounter along the way.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Excellent.
Speaker:I love the idea of that book.
Speaker:Looking forward to, yeah.
Speaker:To seeing it come out.
Speaker:That's amazing.
Speaker:Well, I need to make sure there's some accountability, so maybe
Speaker:I'll reach out for, you know.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Loud to work out loud, which I'm not great at.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm really not great at that.
Speaker:We can call
Speaker:you up every week saying Next page Done, written.
Speaker:What's that?
Speaker:Yeah, you should come to the right tower.
Speaker:Have
Speaker:a I have a i'll and I have a friends of the book group within the
Speaker:community, so that's been amazing.
Speaker:A lot of women have been really supportive.
Speaker:Oh, wonderful.
Speaker:So I'm gonna definitely work with them and make sure it's also useful for
Speaker:them and get their stories in there.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Well, I'd love, you know, just as well, just a quick, well, some
Speaker:reflections from you really help us.
Speaker:You've been part of Vision 2020, you've gone through the process.
Speaker:Uh, just to share a little bit about what, what you've got out of it.
Speaker:In, in, in that journey.
Speaker:You talked about connections with Sina, which is amazing.
Speaker:Is there anything else that you could share for someone who's like.
Speaker:Like I said, would vomit.
Speaker:They're experiencing the whole click funnel webinar help.
Speaker:Well
Speaker:actually, but that, that collaboration thing's really key, isn't it?
Speaker:I think it's something people seek and, and want, but don't necessarily
Speaker:actively get as, as, I dunno.
Speaker:Maybe talk to that, just how that came about as well.
Speaker:Yeah, I think I met a lot of really great people.
Speaker:Um, and afterwards, you know, we had this kind of follow up group, so I
Speaker:collaborated a little bit with Becky around her courageous leadership work,
Speaker:some things with Mark on the POD podcast and um, had the chance to meet Sina who
Speaker:just actually just reached out and said, Hey, I think it work's really cool.
Speaker:Can we see if we can collaborate?
Speaker:And we've been working together for, I know she's here.
Speaker:How long has it seen?
Speaker:A year and a half, maybe two years now.
Speaker:And it's amazing.
Speaker:So, um, definitely connecting with like-minded people was a big bonus.
Speaker:Um, I think it provided me this kind of really light support in a
Speaker:time when I needed to know that this way of working was okay actually.
Speaker:And there are, um, examples of other people running similar
Speaker:types of organizations.
Speaker:Like it can work.
Speaker:You don't have to be sucked into this whole.
Speaker:Online marketing world, which is just not where I wanna be spending my time.
Speaker:I'm not doing this work for that, I'm not doing this work
Speaker:for profit, I'm doing it 'cause I wanna support people who I think
Speaker:make a difference in the world.
Speaker:So yeah, I found that really supportive And yeah, I mean on a, on a
Speaker:pragmatic level, some nice, you know, exercises, tools, things to play with.
Speaker:So that was, that was really nice too.
Speaker:So, yeah, final thoughts, Laurence, anything that, um, you're taking
Speaker:away from this conversation?
Speaker:Yeah, loads.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I love your framing of this as a systemic problem.
Speaker:Not necessarily just like, yeah, creating a little community of, you
Speaker:know, women leaders and this is a nice thing to do, but actually how
Speaker:are we all complicit in, in some ways, what was it Jerry Clo said
Speaker:in, in the conditions We don't want.
Speaker:And so understanding Sick is men leading a community and a
Speaker:lot of women in the community.
Speaker:How we can be aware of that and show up in a way that supports people.
Speaker:We've got, I've got one in my current group, a lady who's really
Speaker:not struggling, but really feeling that tension between wanting
Speaker:to work with women, um, and a particular niche of women as well.
Speaker:And just the almost backlash that might come from that, or just a
Speaker:reaction that might come from that.
Speaker:So I think that's really powerful for me is your commitment to that, your.
Speaker:I think clarity about what your work is to do as well.
Speaker:Like the, the fact that by committing to women, then you've seen it already,
Speaker:that other people can take that on and apply that to men as well.
Speaker:So it's not necessarily your job to do that, but that idea
Speaker:of doubling down on who you are drawn to doesn't stop that work.
Speaker:Then helping on a more sort of global societal level.
Speaker:So yeah, I find that really inspiring.
Speaker:Cool.
Speaker:Thanks Laurence.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I, I'm gonna, sort of add onto this idea of my work to do.
Speaker:I, I'm really, I love this idea.
Speaker:I think, um, it's something I'm playing with at the moment.
Speaker:There's so many things that need to be changed in the world.
Speaker:A lot of us are looking for purpose and meaning in, in our
Speaker:work and in our ways of life.
Speaker:And it can feel overwhelming where to spend our time and is it enough?
Speaker:And, and this kind of even maybe self shaming of like, oh, is it okay to just
Speaker:sit on the beach for a bit and relax when all of these things are happening?
Speaker:And at the same time.
Speaker:The world is complex.
Speaker:There is so much going.
Speaker:And I, I saw a quote today that I really liked.
Speaker:I think it's from Elizabeth Gilbert.
Speaker:You are afraid of surrender because you don't want to lose
Speaker:control, but you never had control.
Speaker:All you had was anxiety.
Speaker:And that thing is like accepting that.
Speaker:And then, okay, how can I, like you said, work from a
Speaker:place of love rather than fear.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So thank you for just reminding me of that and just, uh,
Speaker:yeah, getting me clearer.
Speaker:How about you, Michelle?
Speaker:Um, no, it's just been really, it's been a really nice opportunity to
Speaker:come back and reconnect with you both because it also makes me reflect, I
Speaker:did vision 2020 in 2020, so, yeah.
Speaker:it's four years ago.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it's really nice actually to just look at what's evolved since
Speaker:then and how much more clarity I seem to have, if that's what
Speaker:you're saying, which is nice.
Speaker:I'm always wondering if I am clear enough.
Speaker:Um, yeah, and just that, you know, these themes are so human, right.
Speaker:We're all grappling with them in one way, shape, or form.
Speaker:And I love how you are taking some of these topics and thinking about
Speaker:what does that mean in our community.
Speaker:And I, I'm just really glad that you've held space for a conversation
Speaker:where we can also connect threads and dots across communities and works.
Speaker:So thanks, thanks a lot for having me.
Speaker:final thing for me, I'll just use, as you said, it's just patience,
Speaker:like your story, your transition, you building this business, business,
Speaker:stroke, social business, um, and just that word is something that
Speaker:is hard when you're starting out.
Speaker:Ever.
Speaker:You want everything to work straight away, but just
Speaker:this almost peace with the.
Speaker:The journey and how that evolves rather than trying to force it too soon.
