Episode 105
How to discover what customers really want
Are you starting something new? Are you on the hunt for customers? If so, stop thinking of your customers as just buyers, and start thinking of them as potential partners and co-creators.
From the Happy Startup School’s experience, what you think people want isn't always what they actually want. And the more you talk to them the more likely you'll find out what really floats their boat and discover how your energy to create can best meet their hunger for a solution.
In this episode, Carlos speaks with Adam Forbes, founder of Familiarize. Adam left his corporate job after 20 years to start his new business, and he has principles for co-creating with your customers to share:
- Start with pain What are people finding difficult and challenging?
- Understand your customer What are they really trying to do and what outcomes are they looking for?
- Build hypotheses How do you frame what you think is happening as assumptions you can test?
- Get out of your head How do you engage and talk to people so you can learn from real world situations
- Think collaborators not customers How do you nurture relationships even when you haven't built anything yet?
Links
Transcript
I'm Adam and until about 18 months ago, I worked in corporate jobs really coup, uh, couple of decades in, uh, a number of jobs, mostly marketing.
Adam:That was where I sort of ended up.
Adam:I I've got history degree, so it's a bit random, but uh, but I found a niche with I think I was gonna say I found a niche with customers.
Adam:I think I'd sort of b built it long before the corporate career, this sort of sort of empathy with customers.
Adam:And I think it made me very successful in, in, in BP where I spent most of my time because, not because of real customer, but cuz of internal customers.
Adam:So, you know, just having a sort of thought about what somebody else thinks and try to please them I think made me reasonably successful there.
Adam:So we started a business in BP and we did the persona on the wall.
Adam:So we thought, yeah, we've got, we've done our customer discovery.
Adam:We know our customer, we didn't speak to anybody.
Adam:Um, We knew we were our cu.
Adam:It was a classic, I am the customer.
Adam:And and of course we bombed.
Adam:Well, Covid hit and so it was a mobility app, which doesn't mean it doesn't exist in lockdown.
Adam:And and it bombed.
Adam:But it bombed because, well, two reasons.
Adam:One cause we didn't know the customer, and two, was because we were five of us all thinking we had different views of the customer.
Adam:So I was off building the brand for the customer.
Adam:Somebody else was doing products, somebody else was doing tech, somebody else was talking to partners, all with a completely different view of who the customer was.
Adam:And I thought that must be a tool that can do this.
Adam:And of course I couldn't find one, so I had to leave build one.
Adam:That's the only, only solution the world needs this.
Carlos:Awesome You know, always dream big, start small as they say.
Carlos:gofamiliarize.com if you just wanna have a peak as to what Adam's built here.
Carlos:So it sounds like, so the last three years it, you've been in a lot of contact with startups and, and that whole journey of getting something from an idea to something out in the world.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:You also mentioned this idea of like having an affinity or an interest in this process of connecting with people and you call them internal customers understanding, was it pleasing them, you said?
Carlos:Which is one interesting phrase.
Adam:Yeah, I think it's true.
Adam:I was a professional people pleaser, so
Carlos:Professional people pleaser.
Carlos:I, I, on the other hand, I'm just a people pleaser of maybe Olympic standards, but not quite professional.
Carlos:But that, that element, what is it about the, that aspect, you know, you call, you call them, you know, you were pleasing them.
Carlos:You there was something around connecting with these people and, and making them happy?
Adam:Yeah.
Adam:I don't think I'd really articulated it to myself until I left, but I, and I think in some ways I might have suppressed it when I was in a job, but I, I think I've just got a very good sense of empathy.
Adam:And, and I think I had it, I've had it from her earlier.
Adam:I think my mom kind of inculcated it in me and I think it just became who I am.
Adam:And oddly, in corporate life, that sort of stuff is kind of suppressed.
Adam:Anything too touchy-feely is really suppressed.
Adam:So maybe just by me being a 25% more than everybody else, it became a bit of a diff differentiator.
Adam:So I was very, I think, good at listening to what people were saying and understanding what was really behind it, you know?
Adam:So they'd say X, but actually there was something y that was really the problem.
Adam:And getting to that, you know, quite quickly, I think it, yeah, I think it made me get on well and get on well with people too.
Adam:But I think I, you know, I, I'd learned a lot of that in a real sense, working in a shop, you know, I'd worked in a shop when I was a kid and I worked in John Lewis for like all the time I was studying.
Adam:So a decade of serving customers.
Adam:So I, I sort of almost had sort of practical side of that as well as maybe a more emotional one that came from my family.
Adam:And, and, and I think it's just been a thread really.
Adam:And I, it's interesting for me realizing it after I'd left the job though, that that was actually one of those really strong parts of my personality and, and, and, and was something I could maybe make a business out of.
Adam:I mean, that was a, that was a novelty, that was a bit of a revelation actually.
Adam:Maybe this is something that not everyone has and maybe I can make a business around it.
Carlos:So I'm connecting it to something that we do.
Carlos:At the Happy Startup School, we run a program called Vision 2020, and it's about create this X site strategy for your, for your business and for your life.
Carlos:Part of that process is, uh, we, this thing called the Purpose Playbook.
Carlos:And we ask people to try and articulate their zone of genius.
Carlos:And the aspect of that, or the, the link to the business thing is like, how can you connect that zone of genius to the work that you do?
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:Because then, you know, there's a assumption there then you'll always be in flow and flow equals Happiness.
Carlos:Cause you are always present and you're doing what means something to you.
Carlos:And I, I heard this kind of, this ability to listen and to really like you truly listen, see what's behind the words.
Carlos:I, I'm assuming you're someone who, who's, who's happy to be quiet rather than always be talking.
Carlos:Or maybe not.
Adam:Ask different people.
Carlos:But the, I think you must create some kind of space for people to actually talk so that you can find out exactly what they're, they're talking about or what's behind the words.
Carlos:And on one hand I think there's, there's something fundamentally human that, that is missing for people.
Carlos:That there's not enough people who care to listen.
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:And to actually understand what it is they really want.
Carlos:And that's why I believe there's a lot of stuff out there that people are just trying to flog onto people.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:Because that's what they, they want to create here, but they have no idea if anybody wants it.
Adam:Well, that's right.
Adam:That was a lot of what was striving me with Familiarize.
Adam:Cause I'd see all this terrific waste.
Adam:And, you know, it's easy to watch it in a big company.
Adam:It's got loads of money to burn.
Adam:But time we don't have, and, you know, a lot of stuff was, we were doing in BP was really about climate change.
Adam:The, the new stuff that we were trying to invest in.
Adam:Like, you don't have time to muck around here.
Adam:You've gotta get stuff out to market and get it working and see whether it's gonna have an impact.
Adam:So time was more of a pressure than than money was, but bigger than that was was the sort of energy and passion of people, you know, when they're, slowed down in some way or stopped from doing things.
Adam:And I think, you know, that's a, that's been a big driver for me.
Adam:That wasted talent, that wasted passion, that wasted energy on things, largely because I think people don't really know what to do.
Adam:So, I mean, there's so many stuff that teaches you how to listen, uh, that shows that there's a problem.
Adam:But it definitely happens when anything to do with customers or, or quite frankly, your team, you know, if you're a manager, a leader, whatever.
Adam:So the fact that there's so many books on these things, te there's a really big problem out there.
Adam:And it can be solved by listening and, uh, adjusting, adapting, you know, being flexible, being prepared to be wrong being prepared to try again, and, you know, all of those things.
Adam:I think they can only happen really once you've been listening.
Adam:Otherwise, you're, again, just guessing.
Adam:Uh, and based on your own ego.
Carlos:I think that's the interesting part for me around this is the one level, there's some very clear points that maybe we'll share later around what it means to, to develop and design something that people want and, and really get the right information.
Carlos:And then a deeper level than accepting what you hear.
Carlos:And actually working with the feedback and accepting the feedback.
Carlos:And there's this fine balance maybe between having a very clear vision for a product and what it's supposed to do and how you're gonna do it and listening to signals to tell you, is this the right way to go?
Adam:Yeah, I think that's right.
Adam:I always say that, you know, with the business, you, you have to really listen to your customer and be driven by them, but you also have to know what it is you want to do.
Adam:And, uh, you know, if otherwise, and it goes to earlier point, you just can't, I just don't think you can be successfully.
Adam:If it's doing something that's just solving a problem for a customer, but you don't really care enough about it, it's not really motivating you.
Adam:I mean, and then the third bit is you just need to be a bit aware of what others are doing too, so that what you're, you know, there's a space for you and it's distinctive what you're offering.
Adam:But if you don't get you into this too, I just, I, I think, well, that's pretty much where I was in a job, you know?
Adam:That's, that's what I was doing.
Adam:I was showing up every day.
Adam:I think I was doing a good, a good enough job, but my heart wasn't in it.
Adam:I wasn't there for purpose.
Adam:I was there for, well secured a whole load of things properly.
Adam:Security, money, certainly stability.
Adam:A bit of, yeah, yeah.
Adam:Feeling good about myself at the, working for a big company.
Adam:You know, so I think it was doing different things for me, but it definitely wasn't doing the purpose thing.
Adam:And, uh, yeah, I, I'm not sure how sustainable it is.
Adam:What happens of course is most people don't.
Adam:I, I was very lucky cause I got made redundant.
Adam:So I got redundancy payment, which gave me some more flexibility than I, I would've had normally.
Adam:So I mean, there's, there's a reality.
Adam:Some people can't have this midlife startup, you know, they're, by then they're too bound up in, uh, in, in, in other responsibilities and, uh, you know, family, everything else.
Carlos:First thing I wanted to maybe touch on was you talked about, what customers are telling you what they want and then there's what you actually care about and passionate about.
Carlos:Then there's this overlap and, you know, that's where success is.
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:Well, you can't be successful if you don't have this passion for me.
Carlos:What does success mean to you then?
Adam:Well, it doesn't mean a unicorn, which is fortunate cuz I definitely are not on track for that.
Adam:I think it means in a very practical sense, it means affording the life I had before.
Adam:So not necessarily immediately, but at some stage I need to, cuz I've got people that are depending on me and, and uh, that's the priority.
Adam:But I think success does mean I've built something myself and by that there's some measures I've got around.
Adam:I've always been really excited by people I know who've gone and built businesses when they, when they build teams because I just feel like that's, it's such a, you just a great thing to be able to create wealth for other people, you know, to allow other people to go and get mortgages and, uh, get to debt, get mortgages, you know, go on holiday, do the stuff, build a family, you know, build their lives on the back of something you've built.
Adam:So that's always been a really powerful motivator for me.
Adam:So that, so I've got one guy that works for me at the moment that I, I hired, and I tell you, it's a really special moment hiring him way more significant for me than him, but I'm way more admin for me than him.
Adam:But, but, but it, but it is, but you know, but that is success for me to, to, to employ people and create wealth out of this business.
Adam:You know, and of course I would love it to be successful, by which I mean have users, people using it and valuing it, reducing waste and all those things I talked about through it.
Adam:That's, that would be success.
Carlos:So there's it feels like there's this.
Carlos:I, I got this sense of like a responsibility, like feeling like I could create a space where other people can do their work, give them something that gives them life.
Carlos:Me.
Carlos:And, you know, talking about Maslow's ha if needs you talked about, all right, at the very bare minimum, this thing needs to make sure that I have a home, I can put food on the table, you know, the family's looked after.
Carlos:And so I'd love to be able to also create that for other people.
Carlos:And then there's this sense of like, okay, and then by doing that, creating that space for other people, there's, it means something more to you than that as well?
Carlos:There's something around giving, I dunno what it is.
Carlos:It feels, it's curious about that.
Carlos:I wanna create a company cuz I can pay people to do work.
Carlos:And that feels good.
Adam:Yeah, I think that feels great.
Adam:That idea that you've helped people live their lives, that they want to live.
Adam:And maybe I, you know, I learned an awful lot about how, like, bad leadership, I think in over the times I was in, you know, working and I'd like to hope that I could not be a bad leader of a company and I could create the right, you know, one of these kind of old fashioned companies that looks after its staff, you know, and cares for them in a more emotional way than just see them as a transaction, as a sort of transactional relationship.
Adam:Yeah, I mean, and I would like to feel the same about customers too.
Adam:You know, I made kind of conscious decision, although it made me feel incredibly, incredibly awkward to be very visible in the product, you know, so videos of me and, and ways for me to directly help customers.
Adam:So, so although it's a product, I want to feel like they can come to me and ask for, you know, if, if they're stuck.
Adam:So yeah, I feel like I do want it to be more of me, whereas it can, you know, as a corporate, you know, you're, you're kind of invisible and you know, you walk away and somebody fills your slot.
Adam:I want it to feel something that's more, yeah, of me, I suppose.
Adam:And I feel like I've learned so much.
Adam:There's a lot about just like taking out here and, and sharing it and I'm learning, you know, I'm learning every day as well, while I'm wrong about.
Adam:So, you know, quickly learn that and quickly help others get that learning too.
Adam:So it's a, I think in a way it is a bit of a channel for that medium to, to, to share what I've learned so that people don't need to make the mistakes I've made or I've seen made.
Carlos:What sprang to mind where you're talking is like working at a shop where you kind of know the names of your customers and they walk in and say, hi, how you doing?
Carlos:That old fashion.
Adam:I love that old fashioned, that old-fashioned gross that has put something by for you because they know you'll be in on a Tuesday and they know that you like, you like this?
Adam:Yeah.
Adam:I mean, I, that's a dream, isn't it?
Adam:Dream of retail.
Adam:I know all this kind of tech personalization's supposed to be doing that for you with Amazon serving up stuff that predicts you want, but that's pretty nasty.
Adam:The personal touch is really what, probably we're all craving,
Carlos:And, and this is, this is interesting because there is the, you talked about the unicorn approach and the, the tech that is exists in the world now a lot of the time to save us time in a sense.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:It's like, okay, why you input all of this information and boom, it already knows what you, you know who you are, why start selecting or browsing around for products and boom, it tells you what you need straight away.
Carlos:And so it's saving us time.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:So we don't have to be there or, you know, waste time in the shop buying stuff, but time to do what?
Adam:Yeah, scroll.
Carlos:Scroll.
Carlos:And like what I, what I'm getting from this idea of like the shopkeeper thing and you spending time talking, you know, trying to be present is like, you know, part of that experience before in the shop was the time to connect.
Carlos:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:The time to, to find out about someone the time to really know what's behind the words of like, I did this or something like that.
Carlos:And yeah, bringing the human relationship to the fore and how that opens up possibilities.
Carlos:as opposed to just a massive data bank that you mine for insight.
Adam:I would say dispiriting just, I mean, of course technology can, can really help and.
Adam:Well, you know, when it is for genuine efficiency, it's brilliant.
Adam:I mean, there's loads of awful things that, you know, look at dealing with government these days.
Adam:It's so much easier than it was 10 years ago.
Adam:It's, they've made, they've really invested in making it easy for us to do things That is brilliant.
Adam:I'm glad of technology that's doing that.
Adam:Technology that is trying to you know, displace social functions or relationships.
Adam:This is nasty.
Adam:Or it just needs to be used very carefully, I think.
Adam:I mean, it can, can be great.
Adam:I mean, look at that, the reach we can get these days with people to find people that think like we do and, and want maybe the things we want and, and, and, and we can help.
Adam:I mean, it becomes, I mean, look at Ukraine.
Adam:Goodness, how, you know, how the world can kind of come together in a way through technology.
Adam:But you know, there is just a, it's a darker side to it.
Adam:There's a lazy side to it.
Adam:I think, frankly, as well as us as consumers, as, as, as much as businesses to sort of, yeah, assuming that everything can be, uh, you know, reduced to that data.
Adam:And that's enough.
Adam:And yeah.
Adam:And I think you see through all the, you know, pandemic, the need for connection is social and when it's removed, it becomes, everybody suddenly realizes.
Adam:So yeah, I think it's like anything, you know, we just take these things too far and then they stop being good for us.
Adam:But there's a spectrum and um, finding the right point on the spectrum for you, I think is, yeah, something everybody should take time to, to do.
Adam:It's so easy, of course, just to sit there wasting time.
Adam:So easy.
Adam:I find myself doing two and it, and I, you know, I'm, I'm watching it thinking One more scroll.
Adam:God, I mean, it's just like, it's just, I mean, it's hopeful.
Adam:It's hopeful, isn't it?
Adam:I'm gonna find something that's gonna interest me.
Carlos:There is a, a book called Hooked.
Carlos:Do you know it by Nir Eyal?
Adam:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:And you know, essentially the, the principles of creating addictive technology and, you know, the idea of the intermittent rewards and how, you know, how you can design products and they have designed products to, to tap into that human need for a bit of adrenaline.
Carlos:And the dopamine hit.
Carlos:It's uncertain.
Carlos:But there's, um, I think going back to what you were saying around technology, And how we using them and using it in business.
Carlos:There's, there's a context aspect that's coming up for me in terms of, on one hand, yeah, for instance, if I'm gonna, uh, pay for my road tax, I love the fact that I don't have to go to a post office anymore.
Carlos:Uh, sometimes I don't even have to remember.
Carlos:It's to, I'm told pay for road tax, or it's a direct debit is done.
Adam:Yeah, it's done.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:So one thing outta my life, which didn't really add to it, gone, don't need to think about it too much.
Carlos:And, and maybe even some of the shopping aspects I need, I need some batteries.
Carlos:Damn though I should be using batteries.
Carlos:I need some paperclips.
Carlos:Whatever.
Carlos:Click a button done.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:I don't need to have a conversation.
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:And then there's, I think spaces where I, I particularly look, think about places of like education or per some kind of personal learning experience or where you a human being is getting either trying to shift a mindset or learn a skill.
Carlos:There was a whole massive, you know, you, all of these online courses that you can just watch and do and essentially knowledge as some kind of, you know, snacking thing as opposed to actually the human experience of learning a skill, learning some principles.
Adam:I think part of the reason we want to do those courses, Is it's all about efficiency.
Adam:We just think we can get through it as quick as possible.
Adam:It's, it's a, and it, I know, I know there's some people that want the certificates.
Adam:I, I don't want the certificates, but I do want to feel like, oh, I've just put a knowledge deposit in my head now.
Adam:And, uh, I mean, I don't know how many people do these things.
Adam:Probably loads, but I've rarely gained anything from them at, at all.
Adam:I mean, in many ways, like a book I read, I just, it goes in and goes straight out.
Adam:I have to apply it.
Adam:And of course, that's where these platforms, I mean, they're trying to kind of build relationships with people so you can talk about this stuff and, and activate that learning.
Adam:But it's really, really hard, I think, you know, cause you, you're not incentivized enough to talk to somebody on the other side of the world about something, or you just can't be bothered.
Adam:Whereas something live is, well, there's a better chance, I think, of what you've learnt, well, the acknowledge you've acquired being activated in some way.
Adam:And it might just be that somebody said something that triggered something else in you that made it relevant suddenly, or made it make, made it click and you've got it more.
Adam:But I think those, it's, I same point I've made human Plus the technology I think is really powerful.
Adam:And you can't, one can't, yeah, the technology can't displace the human.
Adam:Not if you really want to get genuine learning.
Adam:And I see it in my kids, you know, there's so much great stuff the tech they've got to work with, but it, it is rarely about learning and it's more about testing them on things.
Adam:And it's really good for that.
Adam:I think, you know, this Quizlet thing where they just test, test these sorts of things, but actually to learn on it, they're, they're half engaged, you know, they're half engaged in what they're learning.
Adam:So I don't think they're really in the right, right frame of mind for it, but the technology is probably not right either for them to learn in that kind of way.
Adam:So there's, and you know, there's a bit of that this in the product.
Adam:I'm building two, like, you know, that's why I say I really want to be present in it rather than it just be you know, watch this video, you'll know what to do and then you're off, you know, bosh, your business is sorted.
Adam:This instant gratification thing, of course, I'm as guilty of it and as a victim of it, as a anybody else, but there is, it's hard work, this stuff and like, you know, talking about Familiarize so few people I've given it to us for feedback.
Adam:Yeah, it's quite long.
Adam:And I think the kind of assumption is I can do this stuff in an afternoon, right?
Adam:I'm gonna put like between two and four to work out who my customer is, and it's just like, it's, it's not realistic, you know, two to four to choose, you know, what clothes to buy or something may be, but not besides something as fundamental.
Adam:I mean, it is your business after all, knowing who your customers and what you should be offering them.
Adam:That is your business.
Adam:It, and, but it's amazing how many people have said the same.
Adam:I, I tried to do it in the afternoon and I just couldn't get through it all.
Adam:Like, well, it was never intended to just do in an afternoon any more than you thought you could launch a business and make a success in an afternoon or a week or a year or five years.
Carlos:Exactly.
Carlos:Yeah, that is interesting.
Carlos:There's a bit of an impatience aspect maybe you're talking to there.
Carlos:And I, I was thinking about Familiarize go from, well familiarize in terms of the, the way it came across to me, the, when I saw it, you present it, there's, there's an aspect of learning, but there's also an aspect of doing, it's a tool and you're kind of educating at the same time of the principles behind using the tools and why it's important.
Carlos:When you're talking about the scrolling thing and the, some of the sort of like the online courses out there, which is purely just watch some videos, read some copy, and then, then you're done.
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:As opposed to this is a principle, go and do something, come back.
Carlos:What did you learn?
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:Which I feel that's right, you're trying to do with people.
Adam:Yeah, it really is.
Adam:And it's because I think one of the big philosophies about what I'm trying to do is this is something that should be part of your culture.
Adam:It's not a phase.
Adam:You know, so many businesses have the market research phase and then they go off and do based on what I usually, not even based on the research, what they want it to do anyway, but, but, but it feels like it's a linear sequential process and it really, really isn't.
Adam:Understanding your customer is like, is a continual endeavor and, uh, because you know, you are changing and they're changing all the time.
Adam:And so, you know, you, you never know.
Adam:You can never be confident that you know your customer.
Adam:So the best you can do is to keep in contact with them and try to learn rapidly and, and build a mechanism inside where you can adapt quickly to what they're telling you they want or you're referring from what they want and what they're doing.
Adam:So for me it is a bit about teaching them how to do this because I feel like it should be part of their ways of working.
Adam:And therefore it's, it's not something that a consultant can come in and do for you for a couple of days, workshop or over a month or something, because that implies it's done and it, it's never done.
Adam:And that's why I really wanna work with startups here because they're at that early stage where they can build that in so it is part of the culture because, you know, in a big company it's really hard to shift.
Adam:I mean, they'll all say they're customer centric or you know, customers at the heart of everything, but it's BS really, unless you've got, it's systematically in your business.
Adam:Otherwise it's very, very shallow.
Adam:You know, you've got, okay, you've got really nice help desk, or you've got a leader that will go and say stuff, but actually it's systematic, this, it's not.
Adam:Uh, and, and the easiest way to make systems is to make it cultural backed up by some processes, of course on some tech an organization.
Adam:But culture is really the biggest way you are going to make this sustainable and enduring.
Carlos:The word kind of rigid rigidity and fragility springs to mind in terms of like, you come into a, uh, an already existing company or you know, you know, even if it's whether it's large corporate or smaller company, but there's a, there's a way of doing things that's already so kind of stuck.
Carlos:And you talked about before.
Carlos:It's like you change and your customer changes.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:But if the customer changes and you need to change and you've got such a rigid structure already, it's like if you change something, does that mean everything falls apart?
Adam:Yeah, yeah.
Carlos:And so there's a resistance to making any change cuz of the fear of what it will mean for everything else.
Adam:Well, and also what you've invested so far, not just money and time, but you know, emotionally you've invested in this and you start finding out that what you're building or what you've built is not what's needed anymore or never was needed.
Adam:You know, there's huge resistance to keep overplaying the good things you're hearing that reinforce that your confirmation bias, you know, the, and, and ignore anything that starts to challenge that.
Adam:So if you've not got that, yeah, setting the culture that you, you know, you will be responsive and, and, and try to preempt these, the, the failures.
Adam:I mean, in some ways you, I mean, you, you wanna get them through the failures as quick as possible and learn for them.
Adam:But if you can start to predict these things, because you can notice earlier that something's changing and you can get into it and find out what it is, it's a huge source of competitive advantage there.
Adam:You know, if your competitors haven't noticed, And you have boss, you know, you've got a chance to, um, take some leadership there.
Adam:And I was thinking just something else you said.
Adam:So I had a real great opportunity in BP because we set up a completely separate business and it was deliberate intentionally to be different from the mothership, you know, and it was the ventureship builder that I I was in on early on.
Adam:And and I was responsible for building the culture there as a marketing person, but I was responsible for building culture.
Adam:So we could build it from scratch.
Adam:And it was an amazing opportunity.
Adam:I mean, it was the best culture I've ever seen.
Adam:It was really, really effective, positive, high trust, fast, it was everything you could have wanted, but it was super fragile.
Adam:It was so fragile.
Adam:And to the point that when things didn't go well and I sort of left soon afterwards, it changed it.
Adam:And I think it got.
Adam:It fell apart.
Adam:And, and it just showed me how fragile culture is.
Adam:It's, you know, it's the, probably the biggest superpower you can have in a company, but it's the, you know, it's not as rock solid as you know, your org charts and all the other things and the money and everything else that, uh, that you have, but it's, uh, so it's really easily it's really easily lost because it is so, so fragile.
Adam:So making something that a culture that you set in the beginning and then you keep implementing is really, really important.
Adam:Whether that's a sort of customer-centric one or whether it's one around looking after the, the people in the organization or whatever it is, it's, yeah, I feel like it's something that really needs constant investment and constant attention.
Carlos:I was just curious, when you say it was fragile, what was the nature of the fragility?
Adam:Well, I think it, they, they require discipline.
Adam:Culture requires discipline.
Adam:Because people just get sloppy.
Adam:People get busy.
Adam:New people are coming in all the time.
Adam:You know, there's, there's just many, many things that can sort of pollute the ideal that you've, you've created.
Adam:And of course, it has to be something that you can live.
Adam:A culture, it can't be something that's idealized.
Adam:But, uh, yeah, so I, I think that's it.
Adam:There's, so it is like, you know, it's building antibodies in it so that, you know, when, when things that come along, people start picking at it, it doesn't all crumble.
Adam:It's robust and, and can flex, and can take on new inputs or a new context even, and still, still persist, still have that sort, those enduring qualities that you, you, you know, you wanted from the beginning.
Carlos:I, I'm curious about it mainly from the perspective of, uh, community builder, and what it means to have a community that has a very clear identity.
Carlos:And so there's the, the kind of, the connection of the parallel I'm getting from this is like, you said, there's a discipline that's required.
Carlos:So there's, there's a, in a sense, there are people that need to remind others why are we here?
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:What are we trying to do?
Adam:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Carlos:What is the, what are the behaviors we're looking for and what are the behaviors that we're not out for?
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:For the purpose.
Adam:Yeah.
Adam:Like it's all lodged in purpose, which is again, a ton easier to do for a small company.
Adam:It's really hard for a big company to start, you know, particularly Johnny come lately, like BP was to purpose, you know, to try and sort of create, alright, oh we've got this purpose.
Adam:I mean, it's really hard to kind of push that over 70,000 people or whatever it is, whereas we have an opportunity to build really purpose led companies and then the culture that can deliver that to that purpose.
Adam:It's a, yeah, I mean it's hugely rewarding that, I think that's one of the big benefits of doing this for yourself or starting in a small company where you can make that link much more tangible and meaningful and quicker as well.
Adam:I mean, it's just like, it's just a reality if you've got that many people to try and convince that this was their purpose all along.
Adam:That's kind of, that's kind of tough.
Carlos:It's interesting now when I'm thinking about, you know, as someone's starting a new business and being very clear about purpose and how that affects culture.
Carlos:I remember looking into this in the past, like, you know, someone saying, I don't have culture yet.
Carlos:I mean, only, uh, you know, solo founder, only two people.
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:But that is the culture at the beginning.
Carlos:You are the culture.
Carlos:It sounds like your values, your purpose is the thing that defines what happens next and who you let in.
Adam:Yes, that's right.
Adam:That's a good way of looking at it like that.
Adam:Who let you let in too.
Carlos:And so my question to you is then what does that mean to you with Familiarize and the work that you're doing?
Carlos:You already mentioned something around giving, enabling people to live well through this place that you created.
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:But is there anything else that you've thought about in terms of like
Adam:Yeah, there is something
Carlos:I wanna be?
Adam:Yeah, well, I mean about the company so much as me, how it's helped me, and I think it's, I think this is effectively, like my culture is is, it's created a floor.
Adam:You know, because the times are bad sometimes, you know, when things don't go your way or you're spending more money than you're earning, or you are, you know, the customer you thought you were gonna get doesn't come in as you expect, or the products aren't quite working as you want.
Adam:And you know, so the lows are, are bad.
Adam:But I think if you've got this really strong purpose, it's really hard to, either there's a quicker bounce or you don't even go that low.
Adam:And I found it more the latter.
Adam:I didn't, I just wasn't going as low as I had gone, like in the first six or eight months where I didn't really feel a clear articulation of purpose.
Adam:I, I'd sort of, kind of got it there, but not, but it wasn't strong enough for me to rely on, I think, because I hadn't got it lodged in my head what the words were.
Adam:But, you know, whenever things go bad, which they do, I find, I still kind of think, well, this is what I'm here for.
Adam:It may not be this product, it may not be the way I'm delivering at the moment, but this is what I'm here to do.
Adam:This is, and this is what I can linking it back to.
Adam:This is what I want to do and can do and think I'm good at.
Adam:So therefore, even if this bit is wrong, it, I, I can't go any lower.
Adam:You know, I'm not gonna give it all up, for example.
Adam:And so I think it's been really grounding for me.
Adam:And I, I would put that as a culture, really.
Adam:And it was interesting when I hired this developer, it's just been absolutely incredible.
Adam:And I, and a lot of it has been luck.
Adam:I, I don't put it order, but I think I was looking for, I was definitely looking for somebody that was, had something about him that matched with me because I knew it would be a very, very personal relationship with each go cause we're just on our own.
Adam:And, and it's, you know, he always says, I I don't understand why you picked me, uh, which I mean, I asked that.
Adam:I don't understand why you picked me either.
Adam:but I really,
Carlos:It's like lovers.
Adam:Yeah, but I think I know what I saw him was what I'm looking for.
Adam:It's like real integrity, real honesty, recognition of where you are weak and wanting to close those things.
Adam:This is what I want to learn.
Adam:This is what I'm looking for.
Adam:For your honesty enough to sort of know themselves.
Adam:I, I, I mean, but I still, I mean, a huge bit was luck.
Adam:I mean, the guy was in Bangladesh and coming over to study in, uh, in the uk we met on LinkedIn.
Adam:I, it's like totally random how it, how, how it happened, and it's been the most successful part of what I've done with Familiarize, hiring him.
Adam:I mean, I would be nowhere without him.
Carlos:That's fascinating.
Carlos:The word serendipity.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:Springs to mind.
Carlos:And I think an element for me, serendipity isn't just pure luck and random chance.
Carlos:There's a level of intentionality around it.
Adam:Yeah, that's right.
Carlos:And that's what sounds like your sense of purpose.
Carlos:Maybe it wasn't articulated super clearly, but there was a sense of purpose.
Adam:Yeah, I think that's right.
Carlos:And I'm wondering how that Connects to the change you want to see in others or the change you want to create for others.
Adam:Yeah.
Adam:I, I mean, I just want.
Adam:I, I have such faith that if you understand your customer, you will build a more successful business because it's just like so logical that, I mean, your business is nothing without a customer.
Adam:So I want that for people.
Adam:And I believe they all think that to start with.
Adam:And it's the dis, you know, it's the distractions, the blind faith.
Adam:It's the pressure of money.
Adam:All of those things, they, it shifts them that thinking.
Adam:It dilutes it.
Adam:And maybe even prevents it from kind of coming through in the end.
Adam:So a a lot of what I want to do is just remind them of the, the logic they know, but also why they came into this, which is they wanted to solve a problem.
Adam:Sure, they wanted to make some money maybe as well, but they wanted to solve a problem.
Adam:And, and I just want to help people re reconnect with that really.
Adam:And I think unfortunately, because we're all busy and um, it's hard, this business building, we need some structure to do that, you know, so it's not enough to just say, read this book and it'll tell you why you need to, you know, build your business around your customer.
Adam:You know, it's in one Ear, one app and you know, and straight out, so we need something, you know, it's a bit like Noom, you know, Noom, the, the health, yeah.
Adam:It's that kind of.
Adam:Thing where you need the nudging going on all the time to keep moving you forward, encouraging you.
Adam:And you know, and a big part of this is about progress.
Adam:Seeing where you came from and saying, okay, I'm here today when I look back, I was there and what's got me here is A, B, and C.
Adam:And one of those A, B and Cs might be, I understand my customer that I learned, I learned from that person I spoke to that this was something that they needed.
Adam:I then tested it to prove that it was, they weren't just a one off.
Adam:And we did that and we became more successful.
Adam:And being able to point to those things and say, yeah, I've, I've learned something, I've done something about it and I've seen the outcome.
Adam:I think this, it's like a human need to do that.
Adam:But unless we do it in a very structured way, we, we, we don't give ourselves credit for where we've come from and, and where we've, you know, and where we are today.
Adam:And so we don't always then have the confidence about what to do next because we don't say, well, it's because that worked.
Adam:So I'll do that again, or I'll do it slightly differently and learn from it.
Carlos:So there's something here around, uh, being clear about your purpose and being clear about why you're doing what you're doing and how that will attract the right people because they resonate with the message.
Carlos:And also maybe push away others or put others off, and being able to be comfortable with that.
Carlos:There's an energetic connection.
Carlos:There's like, if you are working for people that you don't really care about, or actually drain you of energy, maybe that's something to consider, even if they're paying you a lot of money.
Carlos:And this is where I think being really purpose driven as opposed to it being a lovely strap line to attract customers.
Carlos:It's like you are able to say no to people because there is something that doesn't feed you.
Carlos:Not only in terms of money, but in terms of energy.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:And then also shining the spotlight.
Carlos:On these people because you really care about them.
Carlos:Like you know, they are the heroes of your story.
Carlos:They are the ones who are gonna have this change in transformation in their lives that are gonna make their worlds a better place.
Carlos:So if you don't care about that, if you have no affinity towards them, what are you doing other than trying to get some money off of them?
Adam:Yeah, exactly.
Adam:And I love that idea of heroes of your story.
Adam:I mean, that's what, and of course that's what I really want to, I want people to have success of this.
Adam:So they go and tell people.
Adam:I mean, that just makes good sense.
Adam:You know that people refer to other people.
Adam:So of course you wanna make them heroes.
Adam:You wanna make them look like they cracked it in a way that others haven't, so they feel good about themselves.
Adam:They go and tell your story for you.
Adam:You don't need to be doing all your marketing yourself.
Adam:If you've got heroes out there doing it for you.
Adam:And it's more genuine that way, isn't it?
Adam:Than, you know, spur on Google ads.
Carlos:And also, uh, we had, uh, it's very helpful for introverts.
Carlos:We had this and uh, a previous Friday Fireside, uh, guy called Ted Hargrave who runs the thing called Marketing for Hippies.
Carlos:And he says like, most of us aren't really designed to shout about ourselves.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:But we're happy to shout about other people.
Carlos:About others.
Carlos:Yeah, exactly.
Adam:So if we build our products in a way that helps others shout about, about them, or we give them the information, the tools to be able to shout about us on our own behalf, then you don't have to do it.
Adam:And you've gotta care.
Adam:I think that's the thing.
Adam:And you know, I was talking about that other team that I worked with where we had the culture, right for a while, it was, I said discipline, but it's also care.
Adam:And I think those two things together, care and discipline, that's a really powerful formula.
Adam:If you, and, and I think it applies to all sorts of things in our lives.
Adam:You know, if we're disciplined, we're, you know, we are efficient, we're on track.
Adam:We're, we're working with purpose, but the care to be listening all the time, to, to be bothered about how people are feeling, to notice when things aren't working right and, and be motivated to address those things rather than just, you know, ignore them and plow through, I think that is such a, such a powerful formula.
Adam:It's like the, it's a bit like the tech and the human thing.
Adam:Again, really care and discipline.
Carlos:So, what, what I want to do just finish off briefly on some of these principles that you talk about.
Carlos:I understand that you tackle with this kind of understanding your customers.
Carlos:Essentially the way I like to put it is like building stuff people actually want or care about.
Carlos:So the first thing was kind of start with pain.
Carlos:I think I've called it.
Carlos:I'm not sure if the same thing is like starting with finding a challenge or a problem that people are facing.
Adam:I mean, I do think, you know, the purist would say start with a go and find problems.
Adam:I do think, again, coming back to that point, you need to have a bit of your skin in this as well.
Adam:So I do think sometimes, you know, the idea comes first and that's, I think that's fine as long as you're flexible about the idea.
Adam:But you need to certainly find people that are, are interested in that idea.
Adam:And pain is a good proxy for interest that is likely to lead to action.
Adam:Because, you know, because we're also distracted by everything.
Adam:We've all got a hundred things we should be doing.
Adam:So if you need to work pretty hard to get on the top of that list of things that I'm gonna do today.
Adam:So there's an element of looking not just for pain and acute pain, but also for urgent urgently res needs to be resolved pain, um, otherwise it's gonna be something that I might get to next month.
Adam:And you might've got our business by then, so, you know, so there's a, there's something about the, the type of pain we're looking for.
Adam:But the other bit that I found really interesting, this is just stuff I've learned this year is, by doing this is, you know, pain will only get you so far because you know your customer.
Adam:Yes.
Adam:If you solve that pain for them in a very functional way, great.
Adam:They've not got it anymore, but you've missed a massive opportunity if you've not helped them move somewhere else because of that.
Adam:Usually we want a problem solved, not just to get the pain out the way, but because we want to have, reach a, a new position, an outcome progress in some way.
Adam:And if you don't understand that progress, you miss that opportunity to, to take your customer there.
Adam:And that place there is a lot better place.
Adam:That's a long term relationship.
Adam:It's, you know, it's a loyalty, retention, more, you know, share wallet if you wanna get all kind of economic, but you know, it's like there's much more to gain there, the referrals from that.
Adam:So understanding not just where the pain is for the customer, but where the progress is for them too.
Adam:So invest in both of those things.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:So you're zooming out as well, so seeing the full context of we're trying to get to not just, oh, I've gotta just create a product for that particular issue.
Adam:Yeah.
Adam:And the classic is where, where somebody has got like, you know, like in business they, you know, they're working with a Excel spreadsheet to do something or other, and you've got a product or something like that.
Adam:And yeah, you solve that problem for them.
Adam:You give them a product that's better.
Adam:But actually what does that now enable them to do?
Adam:How do they look in front of other people because they've now had that problem?
Adam:You know, it means they can take an extra work.
Adam:They look like they're a problem solver to their team and their manager.
Adam:They get promotion.
Adam:Whatever it is, there's more than just the actual problem being overcome, uh, for the, for the cus for the user, for the customer.
Carlos:So it's interesting that it kind of lend itself a little bit to the whole marketing by using the thing.
Carlos:It's like if it makes you feel better and look better and then you actually then
Adam:Yeah,
Carlos:You then talk about it and then that, you know, and because they link it to the context of the longer journey that they're on.
Carlos:You're telling this story like, this is where you're coming from, this is where you're gonna get to and we are gonna help you along the way with these things.
Carlos:So they don't say, I can then send out invoices a lot more quickly.
Carlos:It's like now my business is actually feels more effortless.
Adam:Exactly.
Carlos:I actually can get work with my customers while I spend more time.
Adam:Exactly.
Adam:It's that point there around you tell us human point.
Adam:It's recognizing we're not just robots that need problem solved, so we move on to the next one, and, you know, on the conveyor belt.
Adam:It's actually helping us achieve something in a human way.
Adam:And so it's a crucial bit to that lots of people don't think about cause they just think of we just solve the pay the pain.
Adam:But, you know, it's a huge missing if you don't think about where you're going to, how shift that customer and what you can really do for them in a sort of more emotional or social way.
Carlos:And you know, this touches on this other point about understanding your customer.
Carlos:I'm wondering as well, by understanding this broader context, uh, you talked about earlier that over this period of time of building your business, you changed the customer changes and there's this kind of interplay, there's an opportunity then to then make the right changes in what you're building to then suit the changes or this journey, other parts of this person's journey.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:If you want to help them with.
Adam:Of course.
Adam:Yeah.
Adam:It gives you, i, I mean, once you've build a relationship, you hear about other problems that they've got that you can help, help them solve.
Adam:So yeah, you become, you can add more value to them and then, and then of course they can add more value back to you.
Adam:And, you know, instead of spending your time acquiring new customers, you're just building deeper relationships with, with the ones you have.
Adam:And of course, you, the deeper the relationship, the more and the quicker you can learn that can then help you scale maybe to, if you do it in a systematic way, it can help you, help you scale what you're learning much, much faster.
Adam:So yeah, it's, it's so logical and it's like, am I just saying what, so what's so obvious here, but I, I think the problem is we're just, we've bombarded with so many things as business owners that, and it's very easy for me to, and I do this all day long, preach away about what you're doing, it's impossible.
Adam:And I define, I don't do it for my own business.
Adam:So I, I, you know, I'm, I'm very empathetic and sympathetic of, uh, um, business owners because I know it's very easy to say what you should do and actually practice it as a whole, whole different challenge.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Couple of other points that might just skip over.
Carlos:You talk about building hypotheses and getting out of your own head, but link to what you said around this wider context of really understanding and connecting with these people and these customers, thinking of them as collaborators.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:And thinking of them, how they, well maybe talk to that, this idea of
Adam:Yeah, okay.
Carlos:Co-creation.
Adam:Yeah.
Adam:Well, um, so it's easier in some industries than others.
Adam:I mean, business to businesses, it should be absolutely the formula for for understanding customer, but also building relationships.
Adam:But like I said at the beginning, a lot of businesses see research or customer insight, customer discovery as a phase, and then you go into execution and then eventually you, you go into sales, sales, you know, build something, and then you go into sales.
Adam:And it's madness of course, because those people that you interviewed up here, a subset of them could well be your customers down here.
Adam:And you know, in modern parlance, it's like building your wait list for, uh, for, for these customers.
Adam:But actually it's just about nurturing relationships that mean you tell people, right, where we've actually built what you said you wanted, you, are you interested?
Adam:And, you know, like with a consumer business, you can get, keep getting data from them.
Adam:Like, do you like this?
Adam:Do you like that?
Adam:Do you like, you know, ab test things, you know, over email and a kind of really efficient way.
Adam:Get, get data, but actually in a b so that's a form of collaboration.
Adam:But in business to business, you may find somebody that says, yeah, I've got this problem and I need it solved.
Adam:Why don't we work together on it?
Adam:Could we use your product to, and maybe it's a, you know, it's a pilot for them, but actually it's like a customer for you.
Adam:So you, you know, it's a really great opportunity to maximize your learning, accelerate it, but also well do two things.
Adam:One is hopefully they'll become a buyer at the end of that.
Adam:And, and, and two, because they've got some more ownership of what you've been working together, they're likely to be telling people about this.
Adam:And a good, really good example where somebody just contact me on LinkedIn, I dunno quite why, and offered me this product.
Adam:Doesn't matter what it was really.
Adam:And they sent me a prototype of it in the post.
Adam:Said, just can you just give us some feedback?
Adam:And then, and under did.
Adam:And then they sent me an updated version of it and asked, asked for the same.
Adam:Well, I must have told about 50 people about this running product because I felt like this sense of ownership in like their success now, you know, it's like, it's such a clever way for, to get people talking about your business, but also giving you insight, giving you feedback.
Adam:I just think, you know, there should be more of that.
Adam:And digital businesses, I mean, it should be easy as anything to do that sort of stuff.
Carlos:There's a few things I wanted to say there.
Carlos:I think on, on one level, there's this working on a real world scenario.
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:I think a lot of people that we work with even, and then there's a number of people in our community, in our programs, although they're not necessarily building tech products, but they're waiting for the right idea before they, and then to build it and then to show it.
Carlos:Show it to someone.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:As opposed to you saying like, yeah, actually talk to some people.
Carlos:Share an idea what's, what's going on?
Carlos:Having that relationship and then working, actually this is something I'd like to work on.
Adam:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:How can I help you with that?
Adam:This is a huge mistake, but it's so tempting and I've fall on again, I've fallen into the trap of this myself because you start, if I just had a little bit more to show people, then they would, it would click for them.
Adam:They would have a better chance of them getting what I'm trying to do.
Adam:So don't show them something too imperfect.
Adam:But it's a huge mistake because the likelihood is you're just building for you, and unless you are, you know, unusual, you probably aren't your customer.
Adam:You may think you are, but you probably aren't.
Adam:And you definitely can't scale you to be the customer.
Adam:So you need to be testing in volume.
Adam:And that's what I always say, it's about building data really.
Adam:It's not about getting more and more insight.
Adam:That's a really key point to to, to, to mention.
Adam:It's very easy to talk to customers and just get more and more ideas of what you can do and you end up after a few of those things totally confused.
Adam:You need to build data, so you need to have, you know, this is the hypothesis base.
Adam:You need to sort of say, okay, I think my customer wants this, or I believe my customer wants this.
Adam:I'm gonna go and test this now 20 times before I start building anything.
Adam:I'm not just gonna keep.
Adam:Asking, what do you want?
Adam:What do you want?
Adam:What do you want?
Adam:What do you want?
Adam:Because you're just gonna get absolutely nowhere other than really, really confused and probably lead you down the wrong path.
Adam:So it's about, you have to think this work, it, its output is in Excel.
Adam:It's not in PowerPoint or on Post-Its, you know, it's output is in Excel.
Adam:You don't have to put it in Excel, but you know, loads of emails and Word documents and things, they're, they, they just confuse you.
Adam:They don't give you the direction you need.
Carlos:Yeah, exactly.
Carlos:It isn't just about getting loads and loads of feedback, it's actually doing something with it and understanding from it.
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:So one of the things that we experience a lot with the people on the journeys we take is like, yeah, there's that.
Carlos:Not your customer understand their journey, understand their contexts, where the problems are, blah, blah, blah.
Carlos:What about taking a step back?
Carlos:It's like, who.
Carlos:Is that customer?
Carlos:Who do I, who do I want to choose to work with?
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:And that's one of the travels that I, we've get now in one of our programs, we're at the stage, we're talking about product.
Carlos:It's like we need to pick someone, but
Adam:Yeah.
Carlos:Who do I pick?
Adam:Well, that's again where the hypothesis comes in because I think you just have to just say, I think it's this person, but I'm gonna go and prove that or disprove that.
Adam:You know?
Adam:So you've gotta start somewhere.
Adam:It's just a totally un, you know, somebody said to me, I think you should build up this as a, going back to the table.
Adam:I think you should build a business where you just sort of say uh, you put some questions out into the, into Google and it comes back telling you these are your people that you should be going out there.
Adam:It almost creates personas of, of people who are just gonna buy.
Adam:It's just like nonsense.
Adam:I think it's much, and, and horribly cynical as well.
Adam:But what, what's, I think the easiest and most efficient thing is to say, right, I believe it's this customer.
Adam:Use your judgment.
Adam:Use your experience.
Adam:Most people aren't coming completely fresh and cold to something.
Adam:Say, I believe it's this person, but be prepared to be wrong.
Adam:And I'm gonna go and test it as the gap of the building bit.
Adam:Get out the building and test, test with real people.
Adam:How wrong you are.
Adam:And update and keep updating that understanding, you know, don't, don't regard what you've done there as you know, endlessly there to be proved.
Adam:Just to recognize that when you spoke to 20 people and they're all saying no to this, it probably, this probably isn't an important attribute of this personal behavior or, or need of, of theirs in some way.
Adam:So, but start somewhere and just do it quickly, you know?
Adam:Just do like two weeks of that and be prepared to be wrong.
Adam:And then pick another one.
Adam:Or take what you've learned and, and adapt it.
Adam:Yeah, I mean, I'm the least dogmatic person.
Adam:I just, I mean, just be, just be pragmatic about this and what you're learning and seems to work.
Adam:Just do more of that.
Carlos:Awesome.
Carlos:And then if you want to connect with, uh, Adam LinkedIn,
Adam:I'm happy to help anyone struggling with this.
Adam:Just like, you know, just have a quick call with them, see if I can give them some pointers.
Carlos:Thank you very much, Adam.
Carlos:Well, it's been a pleasure talking to, you've been fascinating learning about your, um, journey and, and also just loving the, just the insights I'm hoping people are getting around this way of thinking about starting something new and, and how to engage with people who are going to benefit as well as maybe help with the whole journey.
