Episode 106
Awe is the antidote to society's malaise
Laurence has been a big fan of Tim Frenneaux's work since he first discovered Gather Outdoors, a blog and online store he launched back in 2015. He's still got a couple of their sweatshirts.
Tim launched Gather shortly after he turned 40. Around this time he lost his dad and realised he wasn't living the adventurous life he dreamt of as a kid. More recently Gather has evolved to become Adventurous Ink, a book club for people who love the great outdoors. His blog is a wonderful source of ideas, resources and inspiration for anyone that wants to bring more nature connection to their lives.
Like Laurence and Carlos, Tim believes that seeking the sublime and awe in nature can be the antidote to many of the problems we face as a society. From disconnection to ourselves, but also to each other and the planet.
Tim talks about how nature can allow us to open up, and how Adventurous Ink grew from the Do Lectures.
Transcript
We we're two years too late, landscaping our garden.
Tim:I've, I've spent days and days and weeks and we're landscaping it and decking and fencing, and I've only got a cabin in the corner to build now.
Tim:And then we'll be good.
Carlos:Anyone who does like landscaping of their own garden is like, makes me feel a bit rubbish.
Carlos:It's like hard, hardly cut the grass.
Carlos:What's not,
Laurence:it's not your zone of genius
Carlos:Do you know what it would be if I wasn't traumatized as a child by it.
Carlos:Cuz um, my dad was very much into that stuff and it just, I, I just, it was, I was, it was forced labor.
Carlos:On, on the, well, I was gonna say theme of landscaping.
Carlos:It isn't really a theme of landscaping.
Carlos:It's like nearly tenuously there on the like, real rubbish connection to, to like the land and being able to use the land and we're gonna think about the land to bring as awe.
Carlos:Um, so yeah, the title of this is Awe is the antidote to society's malaise or maladies, I think you actually said Tim, when we had a chat earlier this week.
Carlos:And so I, I thought we would be useful first to kind of say, talk about what do we mean by that, and then we'll talk a bit more about you, Tim, and, and, and why you're interested in, in this idea of awe.
Carlos:And, and we'll talk about nature, I'm sure.
Tim:I have a sense that we're, we've lost our connection with the things that are important.
Tim:We've lost our connection with ourselves.
Tim:We've lost our connection with each other.
Tim:And we've lost our connection with the planet and with the, and with the natural world.
Tim:And, and, and there's lots and lots of reasons for that.
Tim:But I think it's made so much worse in this, in this modern era where we, we've, we've, we've just kind of forgotten what's important.
Tim:And I, I guess I'm on a journey to discover for myself what's important.
Tim:And as a result of doing that journey, I've, I've then tried to help others find what's important, rebuild those connections.
Tim:And ultimately, I guess I've realized that what I'm trying to do is help people find meaning and connection in the, in the great wide open.
Tim:And it's, it's become a, it's become a passion, you know, the way, you know, the way these things do.
Tim:We, we might talk, maybe talk a bit more later on, but I used to have a career, nine to five.
Tim:I would've thrown money at landscaping the garden.
Tim:I was thinking when you were saying this, I, I don't, I don't have money to throw at landscaping the garden.
Tim:I've got time to throw at it.
Tim:I want, make something with my, with my own hands.
Tim:Um, and, and, and since going south, I don't have as much money, but honestly I have never been happier because one of the reasons I started my business was to get outdoors more.
Tim:And it all stems from, from spending more time outdoors because human B, we've evolved to be outdoors, you know, for, for, for 99% of, of human evolution.
Tim:We spent time out there and, and, and we didn't have any choice because, you know, there weren't really walls or ceilings or central heating or nice clothes or any of that.
Tim:So, so we've involved to, to, to be at, at our, at our peak condition, weirdly, in, in that natural state.
Tim:And, and, and the modern world just places so many barriers between us and really what we've evolved for that, that our bodies and our minds are just like, well, what, what is going on?
Tim:We, we, we don't understand it.
Tim:And, and we seek, we seek, um, to, to, to do something about that in so many ways that, that ultimately often prove fruitless.
Tim:And we often find ourselves on cycles of going round around and trying something new and doing this, that, and the other.
Tim:A a and actually a lot of the solutions are, are very simple, but one of the most profound ones is, is getting out there and experiencing awe.
Tim:Just, just, just getting out there and fi and finding yourself small, you know, dwarfed by something, even a little bit scared by something.
Laurence:Mm-hmm.
Tim:And, and that yes, it can invoke fear and terror, but also in a good way because it makes you realize that, that you are part of a bigger system and you are one small but important part of that, of that, of that bigger system.
Tim:And maybe those things that you've been dwelling on and obsessing about and focusing around aren't really the most important things for you to do.
Tim:And, and I think getting out there and having those experiences or just, just completely changes your perspective.
Tim:Um, for me it's a bit like, you know, you know, when you're, you know, it's in the middle of the night and it's 3:00 AM am in the morning and you, you, you're turning something over and you, you can't get back to sleep and you're just obsessing about it, going over and over and over.
Tim:And then when you wake up the next day, you're like, Oh, why was I so upset about that in the middle of the night?
Tim:Well, that's the same sort of perspective shift that you can get when you get out there and start to experience awe.
Tim:So, so that, that step from, from, from night fears that are keeping you awake to, to, to looking at it in the cold light today, you can get that same perspective shift by going out somewhere and finding an, an, an experience of awe.
Laurence:We had, I'm trying to think about that couple.
Laurence:Was it Ellen Rupert did a workshop a few years ago, some account we talked about or and wonder, and that really got me on this path thinking about this.
Laurence:Well, the word, I think the words an underused word, isn't it?
Laurence:And as soon as, you know, I was even Googling the definition of it the other day of, of it.
Laurence:Um, just that feeling of surprise or wonder or I think, like Tim said, I think perspective is a big one for me.
Laurence:That feeling of feeling small and how nature can make us feel.
Laurence:Especially if you're somewhere like the mountains, like a different sense of nature.
Laurence:Cuz I live by the sea and by the Downs, and I love it and it's great during lockdown, but there's something about a different view of nature or the outdoors that you would normally experience.
Laurence:Um, or maybe it's just a different part of the nature that you normally experience something smaller.
Carlos:I'm glad you reminded me of that workshop that we had at summer camp.
Carlos:And the thing I really enjoyed about that is that trying to get that sense of perspective, and in this case, they were doing a workshop on just the, the size of the solar system.
Carlos:And so is that along the lines, I think if any of you are fans of Brian Cox, he did a similar kind of thing, but basically you get like a, I dunno, a pea or a football or a grain of sand and you, you put it in the middle of the field.
Carlos:And then you basically, relatively, see how far away the earth is from the sun, for instance.
Carlos:And you realize that you've got like an orange here and then halfway across the field, a massive field, like a halfway across a football pitch, you've got this grain of hand or this little pea which is the earth.
Carlos:And then you think whether, and I am a tiny little thing on that pea in this massive space, which is only a small bit of everything else.
Carlos:So that for me, like, okay, I'm like, there's that fear of like, oh my God, um, I'm totally insignificant.
Carlos:And I forget what that, there's a phrase, I think astronauts have it when they look back at the earth, but there's this real perspective shift.
Laurence:Overview effect.
Carlos:Overview effect.
Carlos:That's it.
Carlos:And it's like, actually, do you know what we need to stick together, because like, this is all we got.
Carlos:So yeah, I'm, I like the idea, or the way I'm connecting it is that on a day-to-day we get really bogged down with shit internet or no wifi signal or someone's late to get my sandwich.
Carlos:And how that becomes ridiculously amplified until we actually see something that gives us a perspective shift.
Carlos:And that's just like some more facetious examples.
Carlos:But there's something here about, you know, I think this whole idea of society's malaise or society's maladies, there's something I think, I dunno, is there something deeper that's happening right now that you've seen, Tim, that you are more aware of?
Carlos:Or is this just a general perspective that you've had all the time?
Tim:I, I actually think the pendulum is swinging back the other way.
Tim:I, I think I, I, I think we've gone through the pain of the disconnect.
Tim:I think we've, you know, we're experiencing, you know, record levels of, of, of, of obesity and suicide and, and, and mental health problems.
Tim:The, the, the, the, the climate change that we, that, that we're gonna start seeing the war, the wars.
Tim:All, all of this comes from, from those three disconnects, from self, others, and, and, and planet.
Tim:And I think, I think we're starting to realize that actually the system isn't really working very effectively for us.
Tim:And, and, and, and maybe we can't solve that by kind of running around playing whack-a-mole, trying to, trying to solve it each bit individually.
Tim:And maybe we need to do things differently.
Tim:And I, I, I genuinely feel that for such a long time, our, our, um, the story of our, of our society has been, Wanna disconnect, but now we're starting to see actually maybe we do need to do to be reconnected with ourselves and with the plan and with each other.
Tim:And, and, and actually, once you start to see those three disjoints, you can also start to see people who are stitching them together and, and doing that in the right way.
Tim:And you know, there, there's loads of things obviously.
Tim:I mean, for me, I, when I wanted to find a new role in life and, and, and start out in business, I went back to the, to the outdoors because that was something that, that I'd always loved when I was a kid.
Tim:Um, and it was like 2015, you, I could see it starting to take off again and it was starting to become cool.
Tim:You know, Instagram has, has, has driven a lot of that.
Tim:I know, I know a lot of people are down on it, but like, my, my, my eldest kid who's 13, he came to me and his the other day and he was like, Can we go to Switzerland, dad?
Tim:I'm like, well, yeah, you can go to Switzerland if you want.
Tim:I'd love to go to Switzerland.
Tim:Why?
Tim:Why?
Tim:All of a sudden, and he, it's cause he'd seen it on, on TikTok and he'd seen loads on TikTok about gonna Switzerland.
Tim:And I think that's brilliant.
Tim:And, and I think it's a reflection that, that we are starting to go, actually the things that we've been doing aren't good for us.
Tim:We need, we need to do things differently.
Tim:So I'm particularly interested in the, in the, um, In, in the outdoors and the benefits that that provides.
Tim:And, and in using the outdoors as a, as a sounding board and a, and a thoughtful place, I, I I, I, I, it's like natural philosophy.
Tim:I, I spend a lot of time out there.
Tim:I, I read a lot of books.
Tim:I spend a lot of time out there.
Tim:And, and, and as I walk around, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of churning all this stuff over and it start, it starts to make sense and I can, I can start to make sense of that for myself.
Tim:And, and I think so many people are finding their own route to connection in, in, in whatever it is, because they've realized that that actually that is super important and way more important than the next, the next pay rises or the, the, the, the next job opportunity or the next car or, or, or, or whatever.
Tim:And, and for too long, I think we've, I think we've chased things that we've been taught, we've been sold are gonna be fulfilling that all of a sudden we realize you get it and you're like, all right, I've got.
Tim:On something else.
Tim:And, and, and this constant desire that, that has been propagated within us, it's, it, it's not helping any of us.
Tim:And we need to find ways that we can, we can break out of that and, and, and find true value and, and, and, and true meaning in life.
Tim:Um, and I guess that's something that, that I always sort of believed, but I never expected.
Tim:My journey as an entrepreneur would take me to a personal level where I really felt that was, that was the, the, the, the way forward.
Tim:And that it would give me a platform to help with others and, and, and, and bringing that meaning and connection to other people is just the most fulfilling thing I could ever have done.
Tim:Like you, you know, I get, I got, I got some amazing emails after, after lockdown.
Tim:I got, I got one from a lady who said, if you ever need, sorry, I'm getting quite emotional just thinking about it.
Tim:She said, if, if you ever need proof of the, of the changes that you're making to people, just let me know and I'll tell you how sane you kept me through some really tough times.
Tim:And I, you couldn't ask for more than that, could you?
Tim:You couldn't ask for more than, than helping someone navigate some tough times.
Tim:So, so, um, I'm, I'm, I'm very lucky to have found this.
Tim:Um, and it feels, it, it feels right, I guess.
Carlos:There's a few things I think we could explore here.
Carlos:There's three, three that springs to mind.
Carlos:There's this idea of like, essentially what I heard was like a system change.
Carlos:You know, there's a need to re evaluate the way we are living, um, not only individually, but as a societies, which can feel, oh, that's a lot.
Carlos:There's this idea of, I think, changing our relationship, personal relationship to nature for those of us who feel a bit disconnected from it or, or caught up in what should we call the rat race.
Carlos:Um, and then this other thing, which I'm really curious about is your own journey of entrepreneurship and how that's evolved, emerged, how clarity it sounds like has, has, has come over time or emerged over time, which I think is gonna resonate with a lot of people in our community.
Carlos:So I wanna save the system change for a bit later, but there's some stuff that I'd like to explore, particularly around the work of Charles Eisenstein.
Carlos:This idea of like the stories that we tell ourselves around, um, work and, and life and how that affects the, the way that we act in the world.
Carlos:And then there's this other element around how we start to reconnect to nature or, you know, start to change this relationship to how we wanna work and how we want to live and what nature and all can do for us.
Laurence:I quite like what you said, Tim, about I used to have a career that's maybe a good place to start.
Tim:Well, I, I was gonna start there and, and I was actually gonna start with the system chain, but O Carla said would say the end, but though I used to work in economic development and I, I was, uh, the head of strategy for an economic development agency.
Tim:Um, and ostensibly that was all about creating jobs and bu and supporting business growth.
Tim:But I was never satisfied with just supporting growth for the sake of it.
Tim:And what I was trying to do was, was bring a new way of, of, of thinking about growth in that was more focused on the benefit that it delivered the social benefit and minimizing the, the, the environmental, um, impact and providing environmental benefit where we could.
Tim:And, that was great.
Tim:And I was using it particularly, I'm a big fan of Kate's donor economics, if anyone's across which, which starts to look at the reason that economics have, have got things wrong, because it's just externalized a whole load of costs and impacts and, and, and inputs that it's, that it's just going, oh, we don't need to worry about that cause it's not money.
Tim:And what Donna economics did was that was they said, well actually we've got, uh, an ecological ceiling, which all this economic activity can't push beyond, cause that's kinda the planet's carrying capacity A and it's got a social foundation that all this is building on.
Tim:And, and, and we can't go below that.
Tim:So there I was working in mainstream economic development, trying to bring on board these, these, these new theories.
Tim:And, and we did get to the point where we'd, we, we'd basically, my, the, the strategy that I developed was, had our region, York and North Yorkshire set up to be the, the first carbon negative region in, in the country, on our basis that some places needed to be carbon negative for the whole, the whole of the country to, to be going, going carbon neutral.
Tim:So that was good and it was great.
Tim:And, and actually I, I did feel like I was, I was making an impact.
Tim:But on a personal level, I realized that I'd lost a lot within my life.
Tim:I went to the Do lectures back in 2012.
Tim:Um, got my boss to pay for it actually.
Tim:And, and, and it was there that I realized that actually there were people living these bigger, more expansive lives.
Tim:Um, and, and I realized that probably I, I, I quite wanted some of that.
Tim:And so that, that thought was ticking away in the back of my mind.
Tim:And, oh, yeah, you could start a business, et cetera, et cetera.
Tim:Um, and I was also our head of business as well as being head of strategy.
Tim:And, and so I was doing all this stuff to support businesses, and I didn't wanna be one of those people who, who, who taught what they, what they couldn't do.
Tim:And all this kind of came to head, um, in 2015 when I turned 40 and my dad passed away, and, and I found, I am right, by the way.
Tim:Um, it's just, you know, these things touch you.
Tim:So I, I found myself in a hotel room, a hotel room, a hospital room with my dad who was dying.
Tim:And so I looked, I was looking out, so he was in Carlisle Infirmary and I was looking out over the salt further, and I could see some hills in the distance.
Tim:And I'd already been thinking all these things and, and, and there in the room, I, um, I realized I needed to, to do something different.
Tim:Um, honestly, I'm all, I'm just an emotional idiot.
Tim:Ignore the tears.
Tim:So yeah.
Tim:So I realized I needed to do something different and then, and then I, I told him, Because we'd spent a lot of time outdoors.
Tim:Um, he spent many hours walking uphill with me or walking behind me, uphills, stopping for stopping to watch the view.
Tim:And over, over my life I realized that he'd, I, I'd lost my way.
Tim:I was doing lots of other stuff.
Tim:Good stuff.
Tim:I, I, I, I used to be a martial arts instructor.
Tim:I was doing loads of stuff.
Tim:I wasn't getting outdoors.
Tim:I wasn't, I wasn't feeding that passion that I'd had as a kid.
Tim:Uh, and I realized that, that something was missing and, and kind concluded that was that.
Tim:So there, in, in, in, in that hospital, that's my dad dying.
Tim:I told him I was gonna start a business that changed things and, and get me back out there.
Tim:So that's what I did.
Tim:Um, I dunno whether he heard me.
Tim:That's the, cuz he was kind of unconscious.
Tim:He'd had, he'd had a massive, um, massive organ failure.
Tim:Um, so I never know if he heard, which is, which is hard, but, Sorry, Sandy.
Tim:I don't make people cry.
Tim:It's just, you know, but this is what it takes.
Tim:This is how change happened.
Tim:So, so there I was.
Tim:Um, so I went part-time and still still had a bit of the day job and, and, and I went part-time and I founded this business called Gather Outdoors.
Tim:And I still wanted to disrupt the system, but do it from, from, from a different perspective.
Tim:So I wanted to do it from a retail space.
Tim:And I came up with this crazy idea of selling high-end outdoor equipment, so like folding kayaks and tree tents and beautiful stuff that would get you out there.
Tim:But selling it to groups of people, um, instead of sending, selling it to individuals.
Tim:So if you got two or three people together, you'd have, or, or a third of the cost of, of buying this great kit.
Tim:Um, and it was called Crew buy.
Tim:And that was my big disruption.
Tim:What I wanted to do was bring the sharing economy into the retail space.
Tim:What I, but I didn't really have the skills.
Tim:I, I, I didn't, I didn't really know what, what I was doing at the time.
Tim:Um, it was, I was big on ideas and strategy and, and, and short on tactics.
Tim:So I, so, but I carried on and, and, and I was getting lots of benefit out of it, um, personally in, in, in terms of personal development.
Tim:Um, and at the time I, I started doing broader retail of sustainable clothing equipment.
Tim:And, and that was all going okay, ticking along, but I recognized that that actually.
Tim:I, I needed, I needed to do something else to smooth out the, the, the peaks and troughs in, in, in, in, in the season.
Tim:So I, so I introduced this book club.
Tim:And I was like, I sure people like to buy outdoor books.
Tim:So I introduced this book club called Adventurous Ink.
Tim:Um, and we did it on Kickstarter and we launched it in 2017, and, and it went okay.
Tim:It was, it was good.
Tim:And actually over time it was, it was reading all these books that really moved my personal journey on when I could see the benefits that other people were getting from the, from, from being outdoors and the, and the thinking that it provided.
Tim:So it got to about 2019 and I was like, okay.
Tim:I'm, because by this point, stopped doing the crew by just, just, just wasn't working.
Tim:So I was just selling sustainable clothing and equipment.
Tim:And I was like, actually this is, I, I'm just, I'm just adding another, another middleman in the mouth.
Tim:I wasn't adding enough value.
Tim:I was doing the same thing as so many of the people.
Tim:So I was like, I don't wanna do this anymore.
Tim:I'm gonna stop it.
Tim:So I stopped selling stuff and focused on Adventurous Ink.
Tim:Cause that, that I'd already started to get some feedback and, and people were, oh yeah, no one else is sending me these books.
Tim:It's amazing.
Tim:Thank you so much.
Tim:Um, so I could see from the feedback that, that, that people liked it.
Tim:And, and so carried on like that part-time still for, for, for a few more months.
Tim:But in the end, I realized, and, and, and again, this is about how change happens is, is, is things happen in your life.
Tim:And I realized that, that I wasn't working well at work mentally.
Tim:I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't in a good space.
Tim:I'd started suffering a lot from anxiety when my relationship, when my boss had hit below rock ball.
Tim:Um, and the anxiety tipped into paranoia.
Tim:And, and yeah, I was in a really, really bad space.
Tim:I remember at the end of 2019 having to tell on my team.
Tim:I was like, look, guys, I'm really sorry.
Tim:I'm, I'm just struggling here.
Tim:And that with my mental health and that I couldn't believe it.
Tim:I mean, like, I'd always viewed himself as, as, as a strong character, even though I'm an emotional idiot.
Tim:And I, I just couldn't believe where this, where this episode of, of, of, of problems with my mental health had had occurred from.
Tim:Um, so, so in the end I decided that, that I needed to move on.
Tim:So I told boss I was gonna leave.
Tim:I think he was probably quite relieved.
Tim:I was quite relieved.
Tim:Um, and then, so I'd hand him a notice and we were working up towards it.
Tim:And then all of a sudden the pandemic hit.
Tim:And my job was to predict what was gonna happen with the pandemic.
Tim:And I predicted that we were gonna have the worst recession since 1930s and unemployment rates that we've not seen since ever.
Tim:Um, and I was still, it shows how bad things were.
Tim:I was still like, I need to do this.
Tim:I, I, I, I can't, I can't stick with the day job.
Tim:So I quit at the start of the pandemic and started Adventurous Ink.
Tim:And, and, and that, but would I have, would I have done it?
Tim:Maybe, maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't.
Tim:But I, I, I guess that reflection of, of going through such a tough time, and using that as a springboard and a positive has, has really shown me that, that these things, these things aren't good or bad.
Tim:They're, they're, they're just signals about what's happening in your life and, and, and shows you the importance of, of, of listening to that.
Tim:So that's what I did, and that's what, that's what I've been, that's what I've been doing ever since.
Tim:And, and Adventurous Ink has, has, has been amazing.
Tim:It's helped so many people, but it's, but it's helped me as well.
Tim:And, and so yeah, so I, I never expected to be a book seller.
Tim:And I get to go out and do, do as much outdoor stuff as I want, and I get to call it work.
Tim:I mean, it's, it's the best excuse for getting out there.
Tim:And, and, and as I said before, I'm, I've never been happier or healthier or, or a more fulfilled person really.
Tim:So it, um, it's been, it's been really good for me.
Tim:But it, it has definitely been a, it's definitely been a journey that, that I've had to work for it.
Tim:It's not, it's not just landed and I know I'm still, I know I'm still on that journey.
Carlos:I think we're all, if we're really honest, still on that journey.
Carlos:And I think this is a useful story for people who follow us in our community to just know that things can change.
Carlos:It is okay for things to change because also we change.
Carlos:And if I was gonna break this down, there's an element of understanding how does, how does the business work?
Carlos:You know, what is, how can I smooth out the peaks and troughs of revenue?
Carlos:How can I manage the profit so actually I eat as well as sell stuff?
Carlos:But then there's, I think here an element of also just how you understand yourself in terms of what you want and what lights you up and the kind of work you want to do.
Carlos:in the startup world, they talk about problem, solution, fit, product, market fit, this idea of like, how can we just make money, make stuff that people want, but not so much what do I want?
Carlos:And is this the kind of business I wanna run?
Carlos:Uh, and what we try and talk about is like, product founder fit.
Carlos:Is the thing that I'm doing actually aligned with what I really want for myself?
Carlos:And I don't think you can necessarily do that from the beginning and say, yep, I know exactly what business I want and this is really gonna feed me.
Carlos:Cuz there's a level of self-awareness that's needed there.
Carlos:And what I'm hearing from your story is just a real-life narrative of like, actually by doing it, by trying stuff out, by finding it difficult, by have the life's experiences that you've, you've faced, you kind of honed in on a path.
Carlos:And it's possible.
Tim:Yeah.
Tim:No, I, I, I'm, I, I, I, I, I've met enough people, you guys included, who told me before I started on my journey that the best thing I could do was start and learn from it.
Laurence:Mm-hmm.
Tim:And, and that's, that's what I took into it.
Tim:I had, I had no experience, no expertise in the retail space or in marketing, or in e-commerce or in any of that.
Tim:I just knew that I wanted to do something different, and I figured well sit on the side lines and wonder about it, or I could throw myself into it, and learn by doing.
Tim:And that, and that's, and that's what I've, that's what I've always been doing.
Tim:To the point that I think where I'm probably at now is I need to let go of that me needing to do all the learning, and I, and I need to move on and do more collaboration and not try and do everything myself and bring other people on board to, to, to help me with that.
Tim:And that's been a, that's been a journey as well.
Tim:Cause my personal narrative has been, you know, I got away from that stifling career and I made something myself.
Tim:I, I, you know, I was my own hero.
Tim:Um, and I re and I've realized in the past, in the past year since the start of year that I've tripped myself up with that, and, uh, and other people can help me move further.
Tim:Um, so I'm, I'm constantly on a, on a learning journey.
Tim:But that's one that I embrace.
Tim:And I, and I love the journey.
Tim:I think it's, I think it's fabulous.
Carlos:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:Well, there's a element there of, I think what you're saying.
Carlos:There's learning the skills and things you need to know in order to build the business.
Carlos:And then learning, actually, I don't have to do it all myself.
Carlos:Um, there's a term that I quite like, I maybe overuse AFGO another fucking growth opportunity.
Carlos:And there's all of these things that we face are just opp, you know, if we allow them, they're, they're things that can teach us more about the way we need to work and how we need to be.
Carlos:I was quite curious about Mart's comment here at Makers and Mavericks, uh, which was last week by the Do lectures, um, WAGMI, which sounds like for me, uh, some kind of dating service for footballers, um, but it is essentially we are all gonna make it.
Carlos:And what I'm getting from that is this idea of resilience.
Carlos:That actually, um, through this, I dunno, this presence, this acceptance, this uh, getting used to uncertainty, there's a, there's a way to work it, make it through.
Carlos:Uh, and I think linking it to your story, and I think the journey of entrepreneurship that some people have, there's this idea of like, you make the business plan, you execute the business plan, you exit the business.
Carlos:As opposed to, you have no idea what you're doing, you're not sure where you're gonna go.
Carlos:You kind of feel like it's in the right direction and then you end up somewhere that you maybe need to be.
Carlos:And then connecting that again to this whole idea of being in nature and having an adventure and going for a walk that along a path that you never walked before and just responding to whatever direction that path is taking you and, or maybe there's no path and you're just scrambling through the underbrush.
Carlos:But there's that.
Carlos:I think, you know, when you're talking about the terrifying thing about the size, I think there's a terrifying thing around the uncertainty about actually, will I get to where I need to get to and where do I need to get to?
Carlos:As opposed to there's this real, there's a road here, it'll take you to Newcastle, follow it.
Carlos:so yeah, I, it's, it is interesting there around the, I think there's the all aspect of nature.
Carlos:There's this acceptance of the uncertainty and unpredictability, I think of nature.
Carlos:But then you started off at the beginning, this whole idea like systems change and how we rework the way we are working at the moment.
Carlos:I find that a hard, uh, you know, I, I, I understand it in terms of like, you know, we, I feel there's a, I've, the way I've understood it, we've, we've been learned a story that we can control nature, through science, through engineering, through, uh, industrial complex, that we are able to actually predict.
Carlos:We'll make lots of things and make them in a certain time and predict many, many ways, you know how our life will, will pan out at a kind of an engineering level.
Carlos:And then shit happens and it spins us out because we forgot actually we can't predict everything.
Carlos:And so I'm wondering, on one hand there's a, we wouldn't be able to have this conversation about the beauty of nature if it wasn't for the technology that allows us to have this conversation, which is based on being able to control nature.
Carlos:But there's a fine balance here.
Carlos:I think there's something around, I dunno, yeah, I dunno if you have any thoughts about how we can shift, uh, even a personal level.
Carlos:Because I think it's gonna take time, isn't it?
Tim:It it, it is.
Tim:Um, I, I've got loads of thoughts.
Tim:So, so I, I think this is a, it's a sociological construct, isn't it?
Tim:It it that, that we can triumph over nature.
Tim:June, we can control it, but the only, it's only a bubble that's come from one, from one source of thought.
Tim:There's, there are, there are whole different ways of understanding our relationship with the planet and with, and with the land and the environment that, that don't get, get us to where, get us to where we are now.
Tim:It's just that for such a long time, this way of this, this conquesting way of, of, of, of conquering nations, people, land, it seemed to be winning because we couldn't see all the losses, we couldn't see all the externalities that hadn't been factored in.
Tim:And it's only when you start to see, you know, in so many, in so many systems, you start to see the system become destabilized and start to fall apart, whether it's the financial system, whether it's the, whether it's the planetary system, whether it's the social, social systems.
Tim:It's only when you see those crises that you go, hang on, we were in a little bubble and we didn't realize it.
Tim:It just so happens that that bubble has stretched basically since, since, you know, the 15 hundreds.
Tim:But, but that's a bubble that's gonna have to change.
Tim:But there is so much knowledge outside of that bubble, beyond that bubble about how you can live more harmoniously.
Tim:About, about how you can find meaning and connection without having to go out and buy it in the, in, in the way that that particularly modern society has told us that we have to do.
Tim:For me, there has been this continual progress of, of, of, I guess, conquest and dominion over nature.
Tim:And we do need to, we do need to move past that.
Tim:But actually we've been taught the tools of how we've been past that because we've all been sold on this idea that we can go out and buy something and it will make us happy.
Tim:And that's just another social construct as well.
Tim:Now, marketing and, and, and all this, it just, it's just one way of, of, of, of getting people to think.
Tim:So if it can be used to do that, you can use those tools to help people find more important things, more meaningful, more fulfilling things.
Tim:Now it's, it's a, that's a mission that structures beyond just businesses, but businesses are right at the heart of it.
Tim:I, I think the challenge that we've got to face is, is particularly in, in business is, is, is how business turns itself around from being something that is essentially destructive to something that is delivering benefit.
Tim:And, and, and so we've talked a bit about technology and, and.
Tim:Technology tends to be used for the things that make the most money.
Tim:And that's the problem in a way that if we turned it around and started think about how can I use this technology to deliver the most benefit, that would be a much more productive way to work.
Tim:It's the same with design.
Tim:We, we, we design for an, an, an, an end experience, but we don't think about designing with abundance, so we don't work the way that nature works.
Tim:We don't say, what have we got?
Tim:Lots of, what can we make more of?
Tim:We get, we, we, we sort of, we, we tunnel ourselves into needing rare earth minerals or, or, or, or, or, or whatever it is, that, again, leads us on an unsustainable path and it's because we've, we've, we've created a system which allows us to ignore all the externalities, all the short term thinking.
Tim:And we need to push beyond that.
Tim:Um, and that only comes from people recognizing that the system isn't delivering what, what it was promised to deliver, which was, you know, improving living standards, good quality of life for all.
Tim:And actually we need to do things differently.
Tim:And that, and that does mean change.
Tim:But I think that's all part of this great.
Tim:We, so we do need to do things differently.
Tim:There's, um, there's a story called David Gange.
Tim:And I featured his book a couple of years back and he, he see kayaks all the way down the wild Atlantic coast of England.
Tim:Well, of, of, of Great Britain.
Tim:Sorry.
Tim:Um, so he goes all the way from Scotland and, and goes around Ireland and Wales and around Cornwall.
Tim:And he was looking even there.
Tim:So people often talk about indigenous, um, um, uh, knowledge and wisdom, but e even there, he, he could see that the way that the Irish had farmed was so much more suitable to their landscape than, than what happened when, when new ideas were brought in and it was fertilized and, and, and, and, and, and plowed and this, that and the other, and it just wasn't right.
Tim:And he calls it the germs of futures that never happened.
Tim:So those germs of futures are out there.
Tim:They, they, they are out there in, in, in so many different places.
Tim:And I think our greatest challenge is gonna be unearthing those germs of, of, of potential futures that haven't happened and cultivating them and bringing about that, that better future.
Tim:But the challenge is, you know, the clock is ticking.
Tim:And, and we've got to do that in, in a situation where things aren't getting harder, there's no two ways around it.
Tim:But ultimately we've gotta realize that that's how change happens.
Tim:There's, there's that saying, isn't there about, or you should have fixed the, you should have fixed the roof while the sun was shining, but no one even recognizes that sun is shining.
Tim:You just think, well, this is it.
Tim:I mean, I'm not recognizing the sun is shining until it starts to rain.
Tim:And when it starts rain, you go, crap.
Tim:You didn't need to fix that roof.
Tim:And that's the reality of the situation.
Tim:So, so that's the thing that gives me most hope about our potential to achieve system change and to do things differently.
Tim:It isn't, it isn't, it isn't gonna take us nowhere.
Tim:Actually.
Tim:The, the, the future could and should be much more beneficial for us all.
Tim:Much more fulfilling for us all when we can slough off all the, all, all this, all this thinking that's led us to a, to a dead end.
Tim:It's gonna be difficult, but you know.
Tim:It's a great challenge to have and, and what, what to be alive to be, to be part of that and be aware of that.
Tim:And again, to take it back to the nature and the awe thing, I think these are the sorts of things I think about when I go walking up a mountain or climbing up a rock face or kayaking down a river.
Tim:These are the, you know, it's that time and the space to work all this through and think about what's happening, where does it go, and where do I fit?
Tim:And, and that's, I think that's a fairly unique experience that, that you get in the outdoors in a way that you don't get elsewhere.
Tim:So nature isn't the only source of all, you know, you can get it from art, from culture, from, from, from, from family relationships.
Tim:There's there from, there's so many, there's so many places that you can get awe from.
Tim:But I think the real benefit that you find in the outdoors is that you can have that experience of awe, that recognition of how small and insignificant yet powerful you are.
Tim:And then you can kind of just churn that over.
Tim:You can, you can walk with that.
Tim:You can turn it over.
Tim:The, the, the, the author Claire Nelson has a wonderful phrase and she calls it metabolizing her emotion.
Tim:That's what she says she's doing when she walks.
Tim:And you do, you churn things over and, and, and, and, and I think that's what's, I think that's really powerful.
Tim:Um, and that's what I find in all the authors that we feature, is that they have these experiences where I know they're, they're canoeing down the Yukon or they're, um, they're, they're, they're, they're cycling across Europe or, or whatever.
Tim:And they will experience that all, but then they give themselves the time to metabolize that emotion, get into the flow state.
Tim:And the beautiful thing about the writers is that they are, they are blessed with the skills that they can convey that back to us.
Tim:And that's what I really love about featuring books about the outdoors is, is that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm blessed to be working with these amazing people, these amazing communicators who have these experiences and these insights, and they've got the skills to be able to put it down on a bit of paper and share that with other people.
Tim:Um, and, and I know for them that is very fulfilling.
Tim:And, and acting as a middle man, as a, as a, as a curator within that is very fulfilling within me.
Carlos:Well, when we talked earlier this week, I can't remember the exact story, but you talked about walking to the mountains, basically taking it slow there and taking it slow back, uh, as opposed to, you know, drive, get like a quick mountain fix, quick nature fix, drive there, drive back, you know, and, and there's not, not enough time, I assume, to, like you said, where there's met, it must be metabolizing or we're just taking our time.
Carlos:And I'm wondering, part of this is around, uh, our, an aspect of our detachment from nature is this obsession with time, doing things, quick, building, making, achieving, getting somewhere in order.
Carlos:I, uh, and I'm gonna assume for most people, we do, we do things because we wanna be happy.
Carlos:So we get careers, we make money, we buy things.
Carlos:And if you ask yourself, uh, I'm gonna get that really amazing job just to make myself miserable.
Carlos:Probably not.
Carlos:You're probably doing it cuz you wanna be happy.
Carlos:But there's something here around, actually you can get that in other ways.
Carlos:You don't have to buy, achieve, make, in order to, to get that Happiness.
Carlos:And this is, I feel is part of where, what's coming, what's coming across in what you're talking about in terms of awe and nature.
Carlos:Uh, and so there's a readjustment I'm hearing around it.
Carlos:It's not just, alright, let's go and live in a mud hut because that's the best way to do it and let's forget technology and marketing and, and business and all that stuff because it's, it's evil.
Carlos:But how, how do we use that in a more purpose?
Carlos:I heard the term purposeful, but I also remember again from the Do lectures.
Carlos:This is 2013.
Carlos:I was, I was brought to the attention of this term biomimicry.
Carlos:And so how do we build our businesses and do our work in a way that mirrors how nature is, is working?
Carlos:Which doesn't, you know, unless you're a locust, it isn't about just like eating everything in front of you.
Carlos:So yeah, I'm basically, I was just grateful to, to hear sort of the depths of your sort of knowledge around this and also your kind of perspective on how we need to rethink what we're doing.
Carlos:Um, I was conscious, we have a question here from Anya, uh, and I wanted to make sure, we tried to see if we can cover it and I'm, it's, uh, I'm not sure if we have, if we have something here, but is it is something around how can we make connection to nature more equitable?
Carlos:As someone with the mobility issues due to a disabling illness, the advice suggestion to get out in nature more, go to spaces conducive to feeling or can feel alienating and implicitly ableist alas.
Tim:For me, it's, it's, again, it's something that I've learned on my journey is, is the immense amount of privilege that, that I bring to this.
Tim:And, and, and I've, I've learned to check my privilege on a, on a regular, regular basis.
Tim:And I, I've not even, I didn't even have that understanding before.
Tim:Um, I guess on some level I did, but it's only now that I've started to go, I'm a middle-aged white guy.
Tim:Um, I'm growing the beard to prove it.
Tim:I'm going gray to prove it.
Tim:Um, but I guess for me, I think that's the start point is, is the recognition of privilege.
Tim:And, and uh, and I guess what all of this is about is an about time to consider our context.
Tim:So, um, so, so there's so many, there's so many layers that that put us, that put us where we are.
Tim:But I do think that part of that reconnection is, is, is an increasing realization that, that other people don't share that same privilege.
Tim:So there's a great organization here in, in Leeds that, that they're, they are dedicated to helping people with various abilities get out and, and, and, and just sample nature in, in whatever way makes sense for them.
Tim:And, um, I think that's, you know, it's all very well to talk about climbing mountains or, or kayaking down rivers, but actually there are opportunities to, to, to be present in nature all the time.
Tim:Nature is all around us.
Tim:We're not, we're not separate from nature.
Tim:So even, even springtime when you, when you walk around, it's it.
Tim:Don't you think it's amazing that that nature has geared herself to put on this incredible show right at the start of spring.
Tim:And you think, oh, amazing.
Tim:They, they, nature has done this because we, we, we've been through a dull winter and look, nature's put on this show of color.
Tim:And imagine the work that is involved in trees and flowers.
Tim:The first thing that they do is erupt into color.
Tim:And they're not doing that for our benefit.
Tim:They're doing that to, to attract the bees and so that they get pollinated so that later in the fruit and so that they replicate.
Tim:But once you, once you tune into this, you, I find that awesome.
Tim:I find that amazing.
Tim:And I, and I think these are the sorts of experiences that we should talk about much more than putting on a pedestal the conquest of a mountain or cycling around the world.
Tim:And actually we need to talk about people doing everyday things and, and celebrate how special that is.
Tim:That, that the connection that we can, that we can all find.
Tim:And that's, that's certainly what, what I try and do when I'm, when I'm curating our books is, you know, there's no conquest narratives, there's no macho.
Tim:Um, uh, I, I, I climb this, aren't I, aren't I amazing?
Tim:And I go out on my way to find other authors of, from diverse backgrounds who've got something to say.
Tim:Cause let's face it, the outdoor space and the writing space is very white middle class.
Tim:There's no, no two ways about it.
Tim:So, so I've worked with, um, with, with, with, with Black Girls Hike.
Tim:Um, you know, we featured, we featured books from trans authors.
Tim:Um, I've featured quite a few, quite a few people of different backgrounds.
Tim:So we've had Muslim authors, we've had female, lots of female authors, actually probably, I think I've, I've almost had more female authors than I have male authors.
Tim:Um, and, and people like, like who were in a position to be able to put forward a perspective.
Tim:It's so important that we check up everything, think about, and think about that message that we're putting out there, and try and make ways in for, for everyone so that everyone can find something in that and, and not keep propagating these, these, these myths that some people find exquisite exclusionary.
Carlos:And I think, you know what, at least a basic level is that appreciation of the privilege, which I think is really, you know, important.
Carlos:There's also, I think you, you nodded to it already, the acquisition of awe is not just by going into nature.
Carlos:You don't, you can, there are different ways to, to feel that experience of awe.
Carlos:Uh, and I think the opportunity to hike up a mountain or spend time in a field camping requires, you know, more effort on the parts of others than, than some of us.
Carlos:So it, it's a, it is one of those tricky things that, um, I think there's an appreciation and then there's also how we, how we make that possible for as many people as possible.
Carlos:But ultimately, I think for me, the key to this is this idea of feeling connected to ourselves, connected to each other, and connected to this planet, whatever that may be.
Carlos:Whether that's through nature or whether that's through being in com community with others and feeling that sense of like, whoa, you know, these people see me, these people are like me, like, or we're ho hopefully on the call like this on event, like Do lectures or on many Zoom calls that we seem to be finding, uh, when you don't get Zoom fatigue, but you actually find people that are people like you.
Carlos:Um, before we leave, is there anything that you would like to share, uh, with our listeners and people watching now that, um, you're doing at the moment that they would find interesting and useful given what you've been talking about?
Tim:I'm, I'm, I'm doing what I always do.
Tim:I'm choosing books that I share with people and I send 'em a different book every month.
Tim:And people have to trust me that I'm gonna send them something they're gonna find interesting.
Tim:And, and that's what I do month in, month out.
Tim:and that's, and that's what I do.
Tim:And, and I, you, you talked at the beginning about, about, you know, that traditional model of, uh, of startups and that you would, you would start it and you'd get some investment and then you'd look to exit the business.
Tim:I'm not interested in exiting the business.
Tim:This is for, for me, this is, this is so ingrained in what I do that I want to continue doing this forever.
Tim:Uh, and take, take the community with us.
Tim:Um, and finding that meaning and connection through reading, through being outdoors.
Tim:That's for me, that's, that's what it's all about, and that's what I'm gonna continue doing for as long as I possibly can.
Carlos:Awesome.
Carlos:Thank you.
Carlos:Laurence, any final words?
Laurence:No, I just love listening to Tim's passion, really.
Laurence:And I think vulnerability, I think is appreciated to open up, I think particularly around, I guess pivotal moments in, in your journey.
Laurence:I think I totally resonate with that, and I'm sure lots of others do in the chat.
Laurence:Um, and, and actually seeing where that seed of an ideas come from and that commitment you've made to it, I think it's really inspiring.
Laurence:Um, and it feels like it's just a start in some ways.
Laurence:Even though you've been doing this for a few years, feels like there's a lot of exciting times ahead.
Laurence:So exciting to see where it goes.
Laurence:But yeah, thanks for your, your everything really.
Laurence:Today's been great.
Tim:Well, thank you for, for your support, both of you as well.
Tim:You've, you, I've, I've always looked at you guys and thought that what a brilliant community they've made.
Tim:You know, you, you, you were doing things absolutely the right way and you, you, you, you curated a wonderful community.
Tim:So, so thank you for, for, for all the support and for, and for this.
Tim:I, I really appreciate.
Laurence:Cheers, Tim.
Carlos:Well, thank, thank you very much, Tim.
Carlos:Um, I, I used to hate nature.
Carlos:I hated the idea of going out and it's like, oh, I gotta get itchy with the grass.
Carlos:This is so hot and it's all muddy.
Carlos:Um, and I think I've now, and as a kid, we never went camping.
Carlos:We never did anything in the outdoors.
Carlos:You know, my mom definitely did not like the idea of sleeping in a tent.
Carlos:What I've come to appreciate is, um, despite the discomforts, the mosquitoes or the flies or whatever it is, there are moments that you will never forget when you are in places, whether it is in a field, just lying in the grass in a park, or as lucky as we've been to be on the mountain somewhere, staring into the, to the, the enormity that is planet earth.
Laurence:I'll never forget your snoring to be fair.
Carlos:He had to bring that up, didn't he?
Carlos:Uh, that's a story for another time when we talk about Altitude.
Carlos:Um, but yeah, there, there is, there is difficulty and there's challenge with being in nature and the things that we do.
Carlos:We be off there in the ups in June and, you know, walking up to a refuge and that takes basically half a day to get to it is tiring.
Carlos:It's difficult.
Carlos:But when you get there and you experience that and you accept all the discomfort along the way, you won't forget it.
Carlos:And I think there's a, an element for me anyway, the analogy for me is, is the acceptance of the uncertainty.
Carlos:Acceptance of the discomfort, because I've lost touch with what it's actually like to be not in a box made of concrete, um, and to actually be walking around with loads of flies and fucking mosquitoes.
Carlos:Anyway, thank you very much again, everyone, um, have a lovely rest of the day.
Carlos:I hope you have images of being connected to yourself, to other people, and to nature buzzing through your head.
Carlos:Uh, and until next time, catch you later.
Laurence:See you later.
Laurence:Bye-Bye guys.
Laurence:Cheer
Tim:soon.
Tim:All right.
