Episode 159
How to make your idea real
Carlos and Lana dive into the concept of creating Minimum Lovable Products: products that "thingify" your thoughts and turn your ideas into tangible, helpful solutions.
These MLPs help you connect with the people you want to serve, promote your mission, and build momentum for your idea.
Whether you're looking to iterate your big vision or start marketing your idea, this episode is about creating connections and value.
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Transcript
my name is David Ekins.
Speaker:I've, uh, had a 20 year career in advertising, which I already enjoyed.
Speaker:Um, but the pressure was starting to get to me.
Speaker:and then about seven years ago, I went through quite a bit of
Speaker:trauma in my personal life.
Speaker:And that had a huge effect on my mental health.
Speaker:Um, but I soldiered on, uh, eventually got back to work after extended leave
Speaker:on compassionate grounds and they had no wellbeing safeguarding procedures.
Speaker:Um, and that had.
Speaker:Uh, that that was the tipping point for my mental health.
Speaker:Uh, I just wasn't handled in the correct way.
Speaker:I couldn't, um, express my emotions or what was going through 'cause I
Speaker:didn't really understand it myself.
Speaker:I was suffering from PTSD.
Speaker:and when I raised a concern to the senior management that.
Speaker:I didn't feel as if I was being managed particularly very well.
Speaker:Um, I got taken down the pub and told that I should leave the agency.
Speaker:Um, and after I'd experienced losing my, my dad's a brain hemorrhage, my
Speaker:wife in childbirth, and now I was losing my job all in a six month window.
Speaker:That was just way too much for me.
Speaker:Um, and so it accumulated into a moment of crisis.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Uh, tried to end my life 'cause I couldn't, uh, I
Speaker:didn't know how to handle it.
Speaker:And then I spent the next five years hiding it, um, ashamed and
Speaker:embarrassed and, uh, numbing myself, um, through alcohol and substance abuse.
Speaker:Um, I've eventually found the courage to just face up to it and, um.
Speaker:Start being honest with myself and other people.
Speaker:And as soon as I did, um, the, the feeling I got was phenomenal.
Speaker:Not just because I was starting to live a more congruent life.
Speaker:I was facing up to everything, but the response I got from people was the,
Speaker:the real thing that really lifted me.
Speaker:Um, and it's that human connection that, that, um, really supported
Speaker:me and make me feel like a better human, uh, 'cause I wasn't alone.
Speaker:And so after that, really tricky six years, I've now found my purpose, which
Speaker:is to use, my story to help others.
Speaker:there's a quote by pub, uh, Pablo Picasso, which is, um, the meaning
Speaker:of life is to find your gift.
Speaker:The purposes of life is to share that gift.
Speaker:and it's taken me a very long time to find.
Speaker:My meaning or my purpose.
Speaker:But now I have, I really want to go back into the workplace to create more
Speaker:supportive environments, to tell my story, to teach people about self-regulation,
Speaker:um, what it means to be a human being in this hyper connected world.
Speaker:Then I found Happy Startup School.
Speaker:Um, summer camp was brilliant, and then Carlos and Lawrence approached
Speaker:me to invite me to Vision 2020.
Speaker:I thought it was a great idea because what I wanted to do was set up the
Speaker:Sapien Academy, which is 12 wellbeing experts delivering 25 minute talks like
Speaker:tele TED style talks in the office, in person over 12 month periods.
Speaker:So that's like a a year program.
Speaker:I said, I just need a hand for.
Speaker:Pricing and how to position it to agencies.
Speaker:I know what I want to do.
Speaker:I know my minimal lovable product.
Speaker:Do I have to go through this whole four month process to
Speaker:get to that pricing point?
Speaker:Carla said, um, go through the process.
Speaker:It's amazing what you learn.
Speaker:Here's a few number of some phone numbers of the people that
Speaker:have been on the course before.
Speaker:Phone them, get some guidance.
Speaker:Find out whether it's for you.
Speaker:They all said, let David.
Speaker:We all started knowing what we wanted to do, but by the end of Vision 2020, it
Speaker:was completely different and it's better.
Speaker:And I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not for me.
Speaker:I do know what I want to do.
Speaker:Um, I'm two months in and they were right.
Speaker:Um, the, the journey I've been on of self-discovery, being able to take a
Speaker:step back, look at things holistically, what do I actually want to achieve?
Speaker:By doing that, I've realized that there's a much better
Speaker:pointier, minimal viable product,
Speaker:first, first, thank you for being so open and sharing so vulnerably
Speaker:in terms of how you know that there, those life experiences has shifted
Speaker:and created this new, Impulse to, um, create this, um, work.
Speaker:And the first thing, and and Carlos knows this, my question
Speaker:goes back to who is this work for?
Speaker:You know, like, and I know there's like a, a very broad theme around it that it
Speaker:can fit with organizations and, um, but is there a specific persona or profile
Speaker:of who would most likely benefit?
Speaker:Um, from this work, and I also frame it as who do I care the most about?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:That I would love for this, you know, for this work to be
Speaker:impacted and, and helped with.
Speaker:Primarily, when I first did my mental health talk, it was just for selfish
Speaker:reasons to just get off my chest and start being honest and open with people.
Speaker:So initially it was just for me, but when I start getting emails from
Speaker:people when I got home, I think got, uh, 8% of the audience, um, emailed
Speaker:me going, that was a fantastic talk.
Speaker:This is what I'm going through, and they're opening up to me.
Speaker:So I thought, oh God, wow, okay.
Speaker:There's a real benefit.
Speaker:I can offer these people by opening them up and giving them permission to open
Speaker:up like they've never have done before.
Speaker:So I thought I could do good in the advertising industry by going into
Speaker:agencies to tell my story to a hundred percent of the people employees.
Speaker:I know there's a direct 8% of people who that will really land with and resonate
Speaker:with, but it's also relevant to the 92% of the, the audience because they might not
Speaker:have gone through trauma or experienced really challenging life hurdles.
Speaker:So it will hopefully, this, this, uh, educational platform, uh, the, the
Speaker:human Academy will benefit all of them.
Speaker:But from this Vision 2020, I've realized that actually, why
Speaker:don't I just go for that 8%?
Speaker:Why don't I create a program which is for directly, for the, the percentage of
Speaker:people who I know who actively want to engage within the wellbeing program, who
Speaker:need support within the, the organization.
Speaker:Can I then ask a question with these, uh, this 8%, where are they now?
Speaker:And where would you like to get them to?
Speaker:uh, Lana's fantastic session of, uh, Satya, uh, change model.
Speaker:that's really beautiful session.
Speaker:You did.
Speaker:'cause it allowed me to get, uh, again, that take a step back and look at context
Speaker:of where are they on their journey.
Speaker:So where you have people who are in, um, uh, the, the status quo, which is normal.
Speaker:Um, and you are good until you're not good.
Speaker:And so when you get, uh, experience trauma or, or, and you hit the chaos
Speaker:and you're down there and life, that's where I, I was for a very long time.
Speaker:I needed help to find my way out to, um, grow, learn new skills
Speaker:about myself and mental tools and techniques to manage my own wellbeing.
Speaker:And then I managed to.
Speaker:Achieve a place which is above the previous status quo.
Speaker:So I think that 8% are in that, that chaos stage.
Speaker:they might be turning up for work, feeling very unfulfilled.
Speaker:There's no agency, um, there's no autonomy and they're just grinding out,
Speaker:uh, turning up, getting a paycheck.
Speaker:And, and I think that, a wellbeing platform, um, can really benefit
Speaker:those people to get that uplift.
Speaker:so the set change model was created by Virginia Satir and, um, it's really
Speaker:a very simple model to look at, you know, what's the present status quo,
Speaker:what's the current status quo, which is, you would say where your comfort
Speaker:zone is or where your normal is.
Speaker:And, um, what I'm hearing from you, David, is the age, you know, agency,
Speaker:um, professionals who have been going through the grinding of life.
Speaker:And an inciting incident, or for an element that might happen would be, say
Speaker:for example there, uh, a health concern.
Speaker:Or, someone from the family gets ill.
Speaker:So there's a foreign element that steers people into a space of chaos and gives
Speaker:them a, a place of, oh, wait a minute.
Speaker:Do I continue doing this?
Speaker:You know, should I continue doing this?
Speaker:Should I continue being in this position?
Speaker:So there's a lot of questions and a lot of.
Speaker:Grief work that's very much involved because now you're trying to, um,
Speaker:look at, you know, how can I go back to who I was before given the
Speaker:situation that I am in right now?
Speaker:And actually that's not possible.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:The, the, the realization here is it's not possible to go back.
Speaker:To the old status quo to, to what we had before.
Speaker:And so the work in chaos is really to experiment, to, um, let go,
Speaker:you know, to find acceptance and also to, practice, you know?
Speaker:So the capacity building or skill building is very important,
Speaker:uh, in this space where.
Speaker:As you learn new, new ways of being, you know, shifting philosophy,
Speaker:shifting mindsets, then eventually you get to a new, place to practice
Speaker:and integrate all of this so that you can get to a new status quo or,
Speaker:um, the desired future that you have.
Speaker:So it, it seems like, you know, when, when I think of what you've shared, David,
Speaker:the first question that really comes up for me is like, thinking of your own
Speaker:experience, what were, what was it that you wanted then in terms of support?
Speaker:Uh, what are the frequently asked questions?
Speaker:I, I put it in as that, you know, what, what were your frequently asked
Speaker:questions before that, you know, that you can probably notice that these
Speaker:people, that, that 8% that you've mentioned are probably asking as well.
Speaker:Uh, it has really beautifully put your description of the, the change
Speaker:model and it really accurately describes my personal journey.
Speaker:Um, 'cause I, the, the chaos down at the bottom, I spent five years
Speaker:in there and trying to forget about my problems and not facing up to it.
Speaker:And it was actually when I, I learned the hero's journey, which is exactly
Speaker:the same as this, that I needed to face my demons and learn new skills.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:That was where I had to go and do that mental health talk to, to
Speaker:actually, it's almost like a coming out and actually face my demon,
Speaker:um, face my fear of being judged.
Speaker:but once I had overcome that and actually accepted this new way of life, which
Speaker:is I have to learn new, a new way of being, like you said, which is honesty
Speaker:and looking at wellbeing and mental health and, and opening up to people.
Speaker:What I, what really helped me was when I joined um, talk Club, which is a men's
Speaker:online platform for supporting people who are struggling and can't communicate
Speaker:that to their friends or family.
Speaker:And that, uh, coming together of these random people, anonymous people,
Speaker:we dunno who each other are, who support each other every day online.
Speaker:And when someone's really low, the, they get flooded with support.
Speaker:Uh, that helped me greatly.
Speaker:And then I went on to mate men in their emotions, which
Speaker:is another online platform.
Speaker:And then I joined aa, which is another group of people who, um,
Speaker:is a co-regulating culture of wellbeing and I can have honest
Speaker:conversations and open up to them.
Speaker:These strangers, like I couldn't do with my friends or family, as even started
Speaker:going, going to church as well because that sense of community, the belonging,
Speaker:the, um, talking about morals and ethics, um, and, and, uh, uh, more than just
Speaker:going to the pub with your mates and having banter just to forget about your
Speaker:problems, is this feeling of togetherness.
Speaker:Um, and I belong and I was in a safe space.
Speaker:That was the thing that really helped my wellbeing, and that's what I
Speaker:want to kind of create for this 8% within the advertising industries.
Speaker:One way, uh, I wanted to sort of look at this idea of a minimum lovable product.
Speaker:is, is something the smallest thing you can create that can make
Speaker:the, a disproportionate change or transformation for people.
Speaker:And while I, you know, you have the happy sapiens, you have the idea of
Speaker:the, kind of the programs and the group called the, the little, the groups.
Speaker:They still will take time and effort in order to gather people together and, and
Speaker:in order to get them on this journey.
Speaker:And, one of our, our beliefs, our premises around this work is the
Speaker:more we can thingify our thoughts, however small, the greater clarity
Speaker:that we will create and the more invitations for connection and create.
Speaker:So thinking about these products that are small and.
Speaker:helpful and also start helping people to understand who you are and what you do.
Speaker:Rather.
Speaker:The, and that can be the, are nearly stepping stones to something bigger than
Speaker:something bigger than something bigger.
Speaker:They could even be the Lego bricks that you end up putting together to
Speaker:be the big program, the big thing.
Speaker:And so one way I was thinking about it's, we, we focusing on
Speaker:this idea of the transformational idea is the one way we can look at.
Speaker:The one way to think about where could be, where could a minimum
Speaker:lovable product fall in place?
Speaker:So there is this person who is in chaos and there is just this one thing, this
Speaker:very small, simple, because the other thing that we've learned through Lana,
Speaker:that when you are in chaos, and you'll know this probably as well from a
Speaker:lived experience, the when you are in chaos, the last thing you want is more
Speaker:complexity, more things to think about, more things to do, more things to learn.
Speaker:You want something really simple and helpful.
Speaker:That will just shift your energy slightly or shift your thinking slightly.
Speaker:And so the question, final question for you, maybe before we just go
Speaker:into just myself and Lorna la just throwing out ideas is what is that,
Speaker:what was that transformational idea?
Speaker:Was there a transformation idea?
Speaker:Is there a transformational idea that you could articulate for someone in chaos?
Speaker:Yeah, it's um.
Speaker:Creating meaningful connections through deeper conversations,
Speaker:honest conversations.
Speaker:Um, and I think we're, we're afraid to have those.
Speaker:But, these co-regulating cultures as wellbeing, these groups, these forums
Speaker:that are geared up for those meaningful
Speaker:conversations and creating a deeper connection with other people and yourself.
Speaker:That for me is the transformational idea.
Speaker:And so someone goes from not knowing that that exists or that's a possibility.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:To knowing that that's exists and that's a possibility.
Speaker:What is that bridge?
Speaker:This is, this is the question, but how?
Speaker:How do I approach an agency and say, oh, forget
Speaker:the agency.
Speaker:Forget the agency.
Speaker:Well, we're talking about 8% person.
Speaker:This person, this is the you.
Speaker:You're in chaos.
Speaker:You dunno what to do.
Speaker:Something drops in your lap somehow.
Speaker:I dunno.
Speaker:Someone shares with it.
Speaker:You discover it online and you think, whoa, what I need is to
Speaker:tell my story and connect with people, or something like that.
Speaker:What or what is that thing?
Speaker:It's like.
Speaker:What I needed at the time was this thing, or you got at the time, was this thing
Speaker:that shifted you out of I'm on my own.
Speaker:The, the thing that, that it was, uh, a contact of mine who set up, uh, a
Speaker:friend of mine who set up talk club, um, after his best friend died by
Speaker:suicide, he created talk club to help others, and he posted that on LinkedIn.
Speaker:And because that really landed with me.
Speaker:'cause I came very close to end of my life.
Speaker:Um, I thought, th I thought, this is for me.
Speaker:Th this is exactly the type of thing I need to do because I am that person.
Speaker:He's who he's reaching out to.
Speaker:And what was the message that you heard or read and talk about?
Speaker:What was it?
Speaker:Can you remember what it said, how it was presented?
Speaker:What it, how it spoke to you?
Speaker:Yeah, it was, I'm creating talk club because my best friend killed himself
Speaker:and no one had an a single idea that he was suffering and he didn't tell anyone.
Speaker:And we need to create environments where we are allowed to talk about these things
Speaker:to prevent anyone suffering in silence.
Speaker:Excellent.
Speaker:Uh, and then, uh, uh, one little question and I'll see if LAN's got
Speaker:another question is like, what is it that you believe stops people?
Speaker:I. From in going into id a place like talk club.
Speaker:What is it?
Speaker:That's what the resistance.
Speaker:What's the resistance?
Speaker:I think the resistance of talking to people is the fear of being judged and
Speaker:that's why it's a lot easier going to a forum where you dunno anyone cool
Speaker:because you never have to see them again.
Speaker:so for me, there seems like there's different phases to what you've just
Speaker:shared in terms of getting to that point of, you know, the, I, I see
Speaker:it as the, the tipping point, right.
Speaker:Of like.
Speaker:When you said, uh, I came out, you know, it's like a, a that,
Speaker:you know, a point of coming out.
Speaker:So, there's like, I see it as like, there's the face of
Speaker:awareness, of understanding.
Speaker:Where am I at, what, what's my trajectory?
Speaker:And this is the awareness building part of can you create, you know,
Speaker:like, um, guides or toolkits for.
Speaker:Individuals to understand, hey, this, this is where I am at right now.
Speaker:What's the, you know, the current status quo?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And that would enable them to find themselves in your story.
Speaker:Find themselves in, oh, wait a minute.
Speaker:You know, as I read through this guide, or as I read through this, I
Speaker:see myself in this person's position.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I'm gonna jump on that.
Speaker:And the thing that spring to mind was a storytelling guide.
Speaker:I'm wondering if, if someone str, so in my mind this, the, the
Speaker:feeling that they're on their own.
Speaker:They're not even able to articulate where they're at and what they do.
Speaker:And to have like a simple structured guide saying, okay, a bit like the story of
Speaker:change canvas that we've shared with you.
Speaker:How can you break down where you are now in some simple things
Speaker:that just at least takes you away?
Speaker:From that space.
Speaker:The other thing that spanked to mind was another simple thing that you
Speaker:could easily do is like create a six episode podcast of your story.
Speaker:I know you go over and you start talking, but what if you could just
Speaker:have people connect you in their ears.
Speaker:It could be like 10 minutes an episode and you just take, you
Speaker:take them through the story.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So like Lana was saying.
Speaker:They experience your story through audio and they get to tell their story through
Speaker:writing, and then that as being a stepping point to who can I share this story with.
Speaker:And then that can connect with a bit more of the practice, you know, so
Speaker:like what Carla said, if you can define those different parts of your story, uh,
Speaker:using the change model, um, you can then also, uh, create, you know, on a deeper
Speaker:level, like what are practices that you can do to explore this on your own.
Speaker:So giving them the invitation of, so this is my story.
Speaker:And these are practices that you can use either through reflection prompts,
Speaker:you know, those card decks of questions that you can, uh, ask them to explore.
Speaker:Um, or really journaling, you know, of like, how can you, create
Speaker:your own narrative, like what the Carla said with the storytelling.
Speaker:And, and maybe there's a, um, link here to the other face, you know, the, to
Speaker:help them come out with their own story.
Speaker:So it can be a series Yeah.
Speaker:Of what Carla shared of, uh, six, six, um, series.
Speaker:And then at the end is as they go through the exercises, they would be able to also
Speaker:then narrate their own story for others.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:The other little product that I think would be interesting to create is like
Speaker:a signposting uh, guide where again, I'm thinking of the set change model
Speaker:in your journey is like signposting them to the different tools and
Speaker:resources out there communities that you found useful at that point and why.
Speaker:So again, that speaking to the person in chaos, I'm here, what do I do next?
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:uh, talk, was it called Talk club?
Speaker:They were at this point, I was there.
Speaker:I went there.
Speaker:This is why it was important.
Speaker:This is why you should do this now.
Speaker:So this thing of like, I dunno what to do, just listen to me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like the six point plan, whatever it is.
Speaker:But there's a simple sign posting.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, uh, making, making it easy for people to, gather the resources because
Speaker:you've already gathered them, you know, you've already went through them.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:How can you share those?
Speaker:Because again, when people are in space of chaos, overwhelm
Speaker:is such a big thing, right?
Speaker:So aside from the, you know, a very practical here, you know, this is
Speaker:a how to, um, for, you know, or, or, uh, I like those, uh, sheets.
Speaker:Where is this you?
Speaker:And then follow the, you know, follow the, uh, the arrow, you know, those kinds of.
Speaker:Choose your own
Speaker:adventure.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Or float up.
Speaker:um, yeah, choose your own adventure type.
Speaker:But there's also the, uh, again, speaking to the resistance, um, I, I
Speaker:like surfacing this for people because oftentimes the reason why people are
Speaker:stuck is because they're not speaking or attending to the resistance.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So thinking of your own resistance as well in those five years that you said
Speaker:that you were in a space of chaos.
Speaker:How can you voice those resistance out?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, what were your own resistance and how can you
Speaker:speak about those resistance?
Speaker:Write about those resistance and share those resistance with others so that yeah,
Speaker:in this space of, you know, them sharing their story or thinking about their story,
Speaker:um, that they can also think about the resistance as to why they're not, you
Speaker:know, they're not sharing their story.
Speaker:And what's coming up for me is along the lines of resistance
Speaker:and choose your own adventure.
Speaker:Is this how choose your own escape route is like, okay, these are where I'm at.
Speaker:These are the things that blocking, where's, where's
Speaker:the path of least resistance?
Speaker:How can I get out of this pit of chaos?
Speaker:And I can't go there 'cause I don't wanna talk to people.
Speaker:I can't go there 'cause I dunno, you know what to say.
Speaker:Oh, at least I can start telling my story.
Speaker:Or, oh, I now I do need to go and talk to people.
Speaker:So I will go to talk club, you know?
Speaker:This ability to just, yeah, help people have options and agency, but
Speaker:without overwhelming them with too many options and things to decide.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Stephanie is saying in addition, what excites you personally in terms
Speaker:of creating, you know, what is it that gives you energy to create?
Speaker:I would add onto that, particularly from our perspective, and I love
Speaker:this from Lana, is, uh, what is, what is good if enough for now,
Speaker:what is safe enough to try and.
Speaker:The thing I'd like to add is what is small enough to act, it's like something that
Speaker:is, that you can do within a time box situation, whether that's an hour, half,
Speaker:a day, a day, but to really get into that, um, to be the mindset of what can I make
Speaker:right now, that doesn't mean I have to think about it or plan it or next steps.
Speaker:Or next steps.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The smaller it is, the better.
Speaker:And, and lastly, there's a. An element here of, uh, how I, like what you
Speaker:said, you know, that you're very much interested in introducing self-regulation.
Speaker:So perhaps given that these are people in chaos, you know, what are the,
Speaker:you know, like one minute breather, you know, or three minutes exercise
Speaker:videos that you can create that can show self-regulation, co-regulation
Speaker:practices that enables people who are already in a space of chaos.
Speaker:That when they, you know, when they recognize it for themselves
Speaker:here, this is what you can try.
Speaker:And they don't have to be perfect.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:They don't have to be some amazing video production.
Speaker:Better just have something there that's, that you can just share
Speaker:and then you can make it better.
Speaker:But don't get too bogged in Oh, how, how do I get the lighting done?
Speaker:How do I get the sound done?
Speaker:Know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:How can you get your phone and just say something into the phone?
Speaker:yeah, I, I, I came to a similar point where it's one of those things that
Speaker:you said to me, Carlos, which is like, you know what you want to do, but
Speaker:do you know what other people want?
Speaker:And I thought that was a really valuable thing.
Speaker:Um, and so I, I did kind of think of, I. PhD, the students at the University
Speaker:of Sussex, and we're working together to create a LinkedIn poll about some of the
Speaker:things that, exactly like you said, like what the, some of the, what the, um, the
Speaker:resistance I was facing within that chaos.
Speaker:How do I voice them in a way that I can put it in a poll to gather
Speaker:everyone else's idea of going.
Speaker:Is this, you?
Speaker:Was it, was it just me?
Speaker:Are you going through this and we're gonna scale, uh, measure
Speaker:it on a scale of zero to 10, how relevant is this question to you?
Speaker:And then we'll be able to get, get the, gather the data, and then present
Speaker:that in a format, which will then be my tool to approach agencies to
Speaker:say, this is the thing we've found that other people experiencing this.
Speaker:And so that is what, what you said is like, how do you get people to recognize.
Speaker:They are in a state of chaos by using my lived experience and my story.
Speaker:I've got 12, well, well almost 12 wellbeing experts signed up all
Speaker:completely different disciplines and domains of wellbeing.
Speaker:I love that idea of giving them an o opportunity to do a one minute
Speaker:promo video of themselves, their service, and how that can help them.
Speaker:And just doing that one minute video for each of them.
Speaker:That's 12 videos.
Speaker:You one, one a week.
Speaker:That's, that's a three month program doing that.
Speaker:And it, so it's their products and it empowers people to go, oh,
Speaker:these, these services are up there.
Speaker:And if they, if I collate them all into one service under Happy Sapien,
Speaker:then that, that helps me launch my business or at least put me on the
Speaker:map for, for people and agencies.
Speaker:So, um, yeah, things to think about there.
Speaker:And, um.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:Thank
