Episode 160
Nurture your inner rebel
What if it’s punk to pause? To quote the Nap Bishop Tricia Hersey, that “rest is a form of resistance”?
Caro Turlings and Jobbe Holtes are multi-talented creatives and Vision alumni with a deep love for music, dancing, and dressing up. They join Laurence and Carlos to explore
- How to forget DIY and embrace DIT (Do it Together)
- Stepping out and stepping up
- How creativity, rest, and discovering the rebel within can help to fuel the change you want to create in the world.
If you want to make a positive impact but think the only way through is to push until you burn out, this conversation will help you find a new way to make a difference more sustainably.
Links
Transcript
Why don't we start in traditional fireside, uh, sort of tradition and get
Speaker:each of you maybe just to share a little bit about, bit about your own work,
Speaker:I think, 'cause obviously you've come together in life and now in business.
Speaker:So curious to share more, maybe a little bit about your own sort of career and
Speaker:journey, what got you to this point?
Speaker:And, and then maybe we can pick up there about where you got
Speaker:to with this collaboration.
Speaker:So maybe Caro, do you wanna start as a fellow designer?
Speaker:Maybe share a little bit more about your Yes.
Speaker:Journey.
Speaker:Well, the, the art behind me is from my daughter, so it's not my own art.
Speaker:But, uh, yeah, so came from a graphic design point, art school, creating
Speaker:lots of visual things, um, um, making other people's dreams and visions more
Speaker:beautiful in the last 16, 17 years.
Speaker:Uh, yeah, and it's been already, uh, I feel two lifetimes ago that
Speaker:I started as a graphic designer.
Speaker:I had a, another life as a nightclub, nightclub host and a catering
Speaker:company, almost 10 years ago.
Speaker:And then I came back to graphic design again, and after a few years I was
Speaker:like, Hey, uh, something stirring in.
Speaker:Uh, and then I found a vision, uh, 2020 program, a year and a half ago.
Speaker:I've had harder times in my life as well, so finding my own spark is,
Speaker:has been a topic, that reoccurred during, uh, the fish in 2020, um, which
Speaker:berted the project, spark land, dance.
Speaker:And now also, also the, uh, road that I'm walking with Jobbe with the Rebel retreat.
Speaker:So, um, finding your inner rebel, finding your inner spark, they're all connected.
Speaker:Uh, and this is what, if you show up in life authentically, you need
Speaker:to nourish because otherwise you don't know why you're doing it.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:Yba over to you.
Speaker:Well, I've
Speaker:been, uh, the owner of a company for about 12 years, I guess 10 to 12 years.
Speaker:It was called One Day Artists.
Speaker:And we connected, art, uh, visual artists to educational programs, uh, at local
Speaker:schools, like high schools workshops.
Speaker:And the idea was to change the perspective of on your own
Speaker:surrounding, uh, via the art.
Speaker:So art can be like a very broad, uh, spectrum to use, uh, not
Speaker:only as self expression, and it was really beautiful to do.
Speaker:before that I used to be a, a visual artist myself.
Speaker:Uh, actually I still think I am a visual artist, but I have
Speaker:a deep love for making music.
Speaker:uh, I used to play in a band and I recently picked up
Speaker:making music on my own again.
Speaker:Because I lost a little bit, like my spark on making music.
Speaker:So this is all a little bit connected.
Speaker:While, while stopping my company, I decided to try and sell my company
Speaker:and, uh, fabulously failed at it.
Speaker:So there was actually one of my mantras was adventures Failure.
Speaker:And I definitely hacked myself into failure, uh, because I didn't sell my
Speaker:company, but decided I was totally not happy, uh, in this function anymore.
Speaker:And, uh, also found, uh, out about, uh, happy Startup Camp, uh, and
Speaker:then the Fish in 2020 program.
Speaker:Uh, and there I understood that I have something that I needed
Speaker:to learn with the liminal space.
Speaker:So I decided to learn more, more about liminal space and, while being also, I.
Speaker:I don't know, trying to create new stuff.
Speaker:I found myself painting other people's faces at Sparkle and Dance at Kara's
Speaker:event, and we decided, yeah, that's something, let's try and figure out what
Speaker:liminal space could be and, uh, well this, so to pick up a little bit on that,
Speaker:this is, this is my background, like how can I use arts in the broad sense?
Speaker:You know, for me it's always very broad.
Speaker:So how can I use the arts to, to change perspectives?
Speaker:How can we go through liminal space, be in liminal space, and how can we connect
Speaker:to an event at Sparkle and dance and wow.
Speaker:Uh, that's where I'm right now.
Speaker:So, uh mm-hmm.
Speaker:Also birthing the Rebel Retreat.
Speaker:Actually it's the anti retreat.
Speaker:It's not the Rebel retreat, but it's, I dunno, it's, it's the,
Speaker:the illustration of Rebel Retreat.
Speaker:But there's, I, I feel definitely connected to being a rebel.
Speaker:Um, I see myself as a kind of punk inspired person.
Speaker:Like, not always a punk, but like really the spirit of DIY.
Speaker:The spirit of going forward.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:he's mentioned sparkle and dance, so maybe Caro share a little bit more about.
Speaker:What you did before we came into contact with you.
Speaker:'cause you were doing bits and pieces, weren't you, with different events you
Speaker:said your background was in, not just design, but hosting and all of that stuff.
Speaker:So maybe just share a little bit more about sparkling dance and how that came
Speaker:about and the other events you were doing.
Speaker:You mentioned, um, some drink and draw and things like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, thank you for, uh, reminding me about drink and control.
Speaker:I keep forgetting that's also part of the game.
Speaker:Indeed.
Speaker:Uh, yeah.
Speaker:So, uh, I think for me, hosting is something I do naturally.
Speaker:I'm a very, because hospital person, A hos, no, well, a very kind, kind
Speaker:person that you want to be around with because I'm nice to be around with.
Speaker:Uh, because I love, my love language is food.
Speaker:My love language is music.
Speaker:My love language is love.
Speaker:So yeah, uh, getting people around, uh, a table, a dance floor, a campfire, and.
Speaker:Connect on a deeper level.
Speaker:Yeah, that's truly what drives me.
Speaker:So as a graphic designer, I did a lot of, uh, assignments for other people
Speaker:with deadlines, with, uh, uh, uh, invoices, needing to be paid, et cetera.
Speaker:So, uh, I lost a little bit of the playfulness of designing because
Speaker:still there was like, uh, the desire to create for the sake of creating,
Speaker:but I couldn't find a spot in my calendar to do it because I spent
Speaker:so much time creating for others.
Speaker:And then I just wanted to chill out on the couch and do nothing.
Speaker:So, uh, during Corona, we couldn't meet up.
Speaker:Because it wasn't allowed.
Speaker:So we met up, uh, in a space with lots of space between us and the first edition, I
Speaker:think Anna is here as well as a listener.
Speaker:We were with four, uh, designers from Hogan, and we started
Speaker:the first, uh, drink and draw.
Speaker:And, um, the goal for this is to play, to fail, to get rid of your inner critic.
Speaker:Uh, the voice that says, this isn't good enough.
Speaker:I am not good enough.
Speaker:It needs to be perfect.
Speaker:It needs to be done.
Speaker:It needs to be finished.
Speaker:All these voices that might sound very familiar to, uh, the people listening
Speaker:here and, uh, in my screen as well.
Speaker:And most of the time it's around four to six, seven people around the table.
Speaker:Uh, we do a small assignment to fail and then a bigger assignment
Speaker:to enjoy the creative process.
Speaker:We share our arts supplies with each other, and then we
Speaker:do a little show and tell.
Speaker:And yeah, it's just a really vibrant place.
Speaker:It's like once every two, three months.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:So it sparked joy also with the people who, uh, are regular
Speaker:visitors of the drink and draw.
Speaker:Um, and the other part I took was, uh, the catering and night clip, uh,
Speaker:story adventure, which actually started when I was seven months pregnant.
Speaker:So maybe, uh, my hormones were, uh, making me insane in a good,
Speaker:uh, but yeah, a, a friend of ours, uh, uh, had a big building.
Speaker:It's also the, the place was called The Big Building, and it
Speaker:was a creative hub for startups.
Speaker:And they had a really giant canteen, which used to be the
Speaker:Dutch Post, uh, company was there.
Speaker:So they had like, uh, cattles where you could make like 300 liters of
Speaker:soup and frying pans and everything.
Speaker:And they were looking for somebody to host the space.
Speaker:So have like a,
Speaker:Living room, uh, living,
Speaker:living room vibe in a startup, Hosty building.
Speaker:So we did the catering, uh, for, uh, 50 it guys who were there with
Speaker:a really cool company from Mark Flatter, who's also a part of the
Speaker:Happy Startup School, uh, spindle.
Speaker:And they, they were my first, uh, client then.
Speaker:So it started to the, it just happens.
Speaker:It feels like it just happens whilst being seven months pregnant.
Speaker:So my kid was practically born in the kitchen slash in the nightclub.
Speaker:and, um, with my previous partner, we, uh, we birthed the, the, the
Speaker:project that was happening then.
Speaker:So it was lots of, um, things coming together.
Speaker:Also, the pressure of a temporary project, 'cause it, the building
Speaker:was getting demolished because the station area was being redivided.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, yeah, it was a very intense time.
Speaker:Because we worked long hours.
Speaker:Uh, I just became a, a parent.
Speaker:Uh, I've never had a catering club, a catering company or a nightclub before.
Speaker:So all this novelty of just doing pressure going, and now looking back
Speaker:at it, 10 years later, I can still see all the beauty of it, but the realistic
Speaker:view, uh, if I step back a few years, then it was such hard work, so draining.
Speaker:I pushed myself on many levels, which also meant that I was
Speaker:burnt out after I got out of it.
Speaker:I sometimes gave the example if you have this cloth on your countertop
Speaker:table and you rinse it a lot, then that you get holes in it.
Speaker:Mm. And then you do like this, and then there's like a few fibers left.
Speaker:I actually felt like that after three years of, um,
Speaker:doing the big building project.
Speaker:So, although I was pursuing a dream of being a, a host, uh, cooking food
Speaker:for people, uh, being a nightclub mama, which I really love still to
Speaker:do today, but I don't do it all time.
Speaker:You still are you still?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm, I am, but, but I've made some decisions to do it differently.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So very many with, with boundaries.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Something with boundaries, something with checking in with myself.
Speaker:Uh, something with energy, something with h maybe as well.
Speaker:Wisdom.
Speaker:so I think Spark on dance is all about that.
Speaker:Like, it's like the sparkly, bubbly energy that Caro provides while being
Speaker:in the, you know, it's not about being the center of attention, but there's
Speaker:something about sharing and giving.
Speaker:Uh, and also, you know, providing safe space, uh, in a, uh, uh, in
Speaker:a, on a, uh, sparkly dance floor, uh, with certain boundaries.
Speaker:Also, certain, um, uh, invitations.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And certain invitations to people to think, to rethink about life
Speaker:choices, but also rethink about how they stand up in life.
Speaker:I think this is what you're doing now and this is what
Speaker:you bring to sparkle on dance.
Speaker:So I really see this as a. You know, progressing, maturing
Speaker:mom on the dance floor.
Speaker:Yeah, That's also me.
Speaker:My kid is all, is nine now.
Speaker:So I've learned a lot as a parent as well.
Speaker:So maybe we can use this example.
Speaker:Before we move on, I'm curious about your love of hosting and community.
Speaker:'cause you talked about working nightclubs, doing drink and
Speaker:draw, like swipe and dance.
Speaker:Now this retreat, like holding space, it feels like a gift.
Speaker:You've got a superpower maybe, I dunno if it feels like that, but it
Speaker:sounds like, um, from what I know of you and from what y has shared,
Speaker:that this is a, a gift you have.
Speaker:Can you pinpoint where that's come from?
Speaker:Is there any sort of experiences?
Speaker:There are some assumptions
Speaker:I can make.
Speaker:Yeah, sure.
Speaker:so my mom came from Poland back in the eighties and I was born from that.
Speaker:But the Polish culture is very, uh, food minded.
Speaker:So when you, uh, go to somebody's place, there's always cookies, there's
Speaker:always, uh, something to drink.
Speaker:You never leave without extra food to take home.
Speaker:So this is, uh, especially in Dutch culture, that doesn't
Speaker:happen in Dutch culture.
Speaker:So I must say my Polish roots are really important in this case.
Speaker:Uh, my dad was a director in the theater, so I was born born in the theater as well.
Speaker:So I like to go backstage, uh, to see, uh, artists getting
Speaker:ready for their performance.
Speaker:So also the front of house, back of house, is something that feels very natural.
Speaker:So also when hosting an event, uh, I am aware of these two worlds that exist.
Speaker:So there's the front of the house.
Speaker:It's also in the, in a restaurant.
Speaker:It's also called front of house, back of house.
Speaker:In the kitchen is where the ha where it's happening, where the, the fire is.
Speaker:But in front of house people should not notice if there's any stress
Speaker:or things are going to shit, or you forgot very important ingredients.
Speaker:You just smile and wave, fix it on the go.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:And also I think my personality, I, I really like to say, oh,
Speaker:it's not going like this.
Speaker:Let's see.
Speaker:Okay, we can do it differently.
Speaker:So working with, uh, high stress environments, um, maybe it's, uh, uh,
Speaker:it's, it can be very toxic because if you only work in high stress
Speaker:environments and you only fix last minute stuff, then that's not the way to go.
Speaker:But if you can, like, manage the peaks of stress, and also I'm learning to
Speaker:prepare much better, uh, every time I do an event and see where the holes
Speaker:are, uh, getting a good team behind me.
Speaker:So I love working together with other people because yeah,
Speaker:everybody brings their own magic.
Speaker:So finding the right people that you have a good click with, um, the
Speaker:spark that you have between you, then the energy will move and then more
Speaker:happens if you, if you do it alone.
Speaker:I mean, I can do a lot alone, but it's not just that much fun.
Speaker:And I, I make myself my life really difficult if I do stuff alone because
Speaker:the only person I'm talking to is myself.
Speaker:And at my table in my head, there's a lot of critical people.
Speaker:We call them the gremlins.
Speaker:They can be there.
Speaker:So I met my gremlins during the momentum program as well, which, which was a
Speaker:really big struggle, but it also helped me now to realize, oh wait, they are here.
Speaker:But when I am at a, in this critical self judging space, it probably means
Speaker:that I should talk to another person and reevaluate what's going on.
Speaker:Use the mirror of the other one to make sure I get into a regulated state again.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I'm feeling this, uh, event planning as a spiritual journey, learning
Speaker:about yourself in the process of putting yourself out yeah.
Speaker:Carlos, with, in relation to, well, as we know with events, it's, it's a
Speaker:kind of a unusual business to run and it can be scary kind of being in that
Speaker:space where uncertainty happens and like you said, Kara being able to smile
Speaker:whilst also underneath kind of going like, what the hell's going on here?
Speaker:We've had a few of those.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like there's a, there's a lot there that I was, I was hooking into, not just
Speaker:specifically about events, even though totally relating to that, the need to
Speaker:be present and work, you know, work with what's happening in the moment,
Speaker:uh, as opposed to just panicking and, and, and, and relating to that hosting
Speaker:bit, I think is real strong intention, which I, I believe is so important.
Speaker:And I feel.
Speaker:I, I sense it when I go to events where this hasn't happened, where
Speaker:you are felt to feel, you made, to feel like you are belonging.
Speaker:You made to feel noticed.
Speaker:You're made to feel welcomed.
Speaker:And I think there's there too many events where I've been to where you just feel
Speaker:like you're being processed through a series of talks or experiences with no
Speaker:sense of like, am I supposed to be here?
Speaker:Do I, am I, does anyone notice that I'm even here?
Speaker:Am I just part of an audience?
Speaker:And that for me is, if anything that's, I think that's even as much
Speaker:value, if not more valuable than the information that I'm gonna get.
Speaker:That real says like, I'm supposed to be here.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:And then ah, and Yammer down.
Speaker:And then that other part for me around, I think that balance between
Speaker:being someone who can fight the fires but not living life as a
Speaker:firefighter, because yeah, that whole.
Speaker:I don't know, chronic cortisol experience mm-hmm.
Speaker:That we can get.
Speaker:I, I can, I've seen and I can sometimes get caught myself with, oh
Speaker:yes, I need to always be busy, always reacting, always that, as opposed to,
Speaker:okay, what did I learn for that last time that I don't wanna do again?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:It doesn't have to always be this crazy.
Speaker:And at the same time, when it does get crazy, I'm gonna deal with it.
Speaker:I'm gonna deal with it now and I'm not gonna overthink it.
Speaker:and that, not just about events, but I think also the way we can
Speaker:run our work and our businesses.
Speaker:also loving, imagining the younger Caro being backstage absorbing.
Speaker:I'm seeing you a sponge, like absorbing all this stuff, you know, backstage
Speaker:at the theater or being around kind of hosting, good hosting from your, uh,
Speaker:your relatives and, and just learning, you know, learning rather than, I
Speaker:dunno, I'm a believer that community.
Speaker:People who start communities tend to have, have experienced it themselves.
Speaker:You know, I think it's quite hard to learn how to build community.
Speaker:I think you need to be taught it.
Speaker:I, I learned you can't build communities.
Speaker:You need to nourish them, and they then arise.
Speaker:So by building very hard, it's, it's the d it's a different kind of energy.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So on that yba, I'm curious how you came into this story.
Speaker:'cause obviously, Kara, you talked about the big building
Speaker:and you got this off the ground.
Speaker:Ground felt like a very, well, I'm gonna say busy time, but also it sounds like you
Speaker:came out of it needing a break from it.
Speaker:But yeah, Jobbe, where, where did you come into the story
Speaker:and what was that like for you?
Speaker:Well, that's,
Speaker:yeah, that's, that's a good question.
Speaker:Where did I get into the story?
Speaker:I guess.
Speaker:With your
Speaker:motorbike, I guess.
Speaker:I guess with my motorbike.
Speaker:Did he ride in?
Speaker:He rode in like from the wild west.
Speaker:I rode in
Speaker:my motorbike.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's what, that's how I got into your life though.
Speaker:for me also the, you know, this is like the traditional time of cargos.
Speaker:Actually on the same time I went also to a happy startup camp and it was
Speaker:on the brink of quitting my company.
Speaker:So I went to my first happy startup camp.
Speaker:Uh, and just two or three days before, uh, my former colleague told me like,
Speaker:I don't know everyone to continue, and I just said like, let's quit.
Speaker:And then one of the most beautiful experiences that I had on Happy Startup
Speaker:Campus that you guys had this like.
Speaker:Like a boss workshop and I was like, oh my God, I'm supposed to be here.
Speaker:So Carlos, yes, thank you for that.
Speaker:I
Speaker:said
Speaker:I should be there because I had to grieve.
Speaker:And then, um, well then as the process of what, what, what am I doing?
Speaker:You know, I had, uh, so a little bit before stopping this company because it's,
Speaker:uh, that's where it actually started.
Speaker:I had this company, but had the feeling that I wanted to do something different.
Speaker:It was really fun to have a company and, it felt really successful.
Speaker:I think we were just in the niche where everybody needed us.
Speaker:Uh, there was enough work, but I didn't felt fulfilled anymore.
Speaker:I was, feeling the fireman.
Speaker:Uh, I was just working for the sake of others.
Speaker:And that's, uh, where I got.
Speaker:A little bit burned out.
Speaker:So I jumped literally on my moped.
Speaker:I got this really silly moped.
Speaker:I can tell you, uh, lots of stories about this, but it's not the program right now.
Speaker:But I've got a silly moped and I jumped on this moped and I did it
Speaker:tour through, uh, through Europe.
Speaker:uh, and I came back, and I decided I want to actually do more with the,
Speaker:the art in the broader spectrum still.
Speaker:Like I am a visual artist.
Speaker:I use collage techniques, uh, to help people, uh, get a different
Speaker:perspective on questions they've got.
Speaker:And I was like, yeah, this, this could be interesting to
Speaker:help people think about change.
Speaker:And I think change is a really big, uh, thing in my life and probably
Speaker:because I'm really bad at it.
Speaker:I really don't like change.
Speaker:Um, and then figuring it out, uh, uh, whilst doing, uh, vision 2020.
Speaker:And so this is all these conversations with all these other people, uh, uh, all
Speaker:over the world about what are you doing?
Speaker:Uh, how do you think about yourself?
Speaker:We figured out like liminal space.
Speaker:Uh, actually Lawrence, you introduced it on the first conversation we
Speaker:had together, uh, like, uh, how do you feel about liminal space?
Speaker:And I was like, what, what's liminal space?
Speaker:Although I never heard of the, the, the term I actually already got into
Speaker:this lingering in the now feeling.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I dunno if that's really like something, if it's tangible, a lingering in the
Speaker:now, but it's all about this, this, this transition time and giving your,
Speaker:uh, self permission to transition and also the transition of not
Speaker:knowing And, um, or the transition.
Speaker:Transition two.
Speaker:Uh, be able to, to, to embrace not the, the not knowing.
Speaker:So I decided to actually shout it out from the roof.
Speaker:Like, I don't know, give me work with something I don't know I wanna do
Speaker:and all this, and, and I hate change,
Speaker:so I'm gonna help I people I hate change.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm gonna change.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I'm gonna navigate your change because I can't do it.
Speaker:And um, and, uh, um, so, so this is the, the process I was in.
Speaker:And, uh, I'm still in like navigating my own change, navigating also
Speaker:like what's limi liminal space and how can liminal space actually
Speaker:pause the system a little bit?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And this is, I was brought up, uh, in, in, you know, I, I'm from, from
Speaker:the nineties and um, in the nineties I learned to have an opinion of.
Speaker:On, on probably every topic you present me.
Speaker:I've got an opinion, and I recently learned that this opinion is not like
Speaker:an opinion, but actually feeling that I want to, uh, vocalize in a way.
Speaker:And it doesn't matter that I have an opinion.
Speaker:I learned that we don't help each other with opinion, opinions.
Speaker:I like to give you my opinion, but it's not necessarily needed.
Speaker:So, um, postponing this opinion was, was a topic for me to, to, to figure out.
Speaker:And, and so, uh, still in this process, figuring stuff out, being
Speaker:in liminal space, uh, we went to another happy startup camp from
Speaker:you last, uh, uh, September.
Speaker:And then I spoke to you Lawrence, and you said like, yeah, uh, um, I
Speaker:don't, I want to go to Spark on dance.
Speaker:And I directly went to Caro.
Speaker:I was like, okay, if car, if, if Lawrence is coming to Spark on
Speaker:dance, maybe Carlos can come over.
Speaker:These are the people you want in your event.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:We know for sure there are Dutch people, so we can lu in the Dutch
Speaker:people via Lauren, St. Carlos.
Speaker:Let's get them, invite them and get them over.
Speaker:So this is where, where also one of my, I think I'm a really good, uh,
Speaker:either you're a strong, big thinker, so I would never make a jump like that.
Speaker:I would just say, no, let's meander, let's la la la.
Speaker:Jobbe was like, Hey, here's an opportunity.
Speaker:Let's make it big.
Speaker:And I was like, okay with you.
Speaker:I wanna do something big.
Speaker:Let's, let's go for it.
Speaker:That's,
Speaker:that's the punk spirit coming out there, is it?
Speaker:Yeah, it is.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:And this is actually, so I, uh, we were already involved in each other's projects.
Speaker:We, we have very much long conversations about what we're doing, but also trying
Speaker:to not only, talk each other into projects, like everybody has his own path.
Speaker:But here, there was this, like, this energy going like, okay, Caro,
Speaker:I can help you on going somewhere.
Speaker:And I, and suddenly I was also really scared because I was
Speaker:like, what's my position in this?
Speaker:You know, I've got a great idea, but am I even allowed to be in this process?
Speaker:And then we started to like, to like figure out like, okay, but
Speaker:if we are gonna work together.
Speaker:So you're a sparkly, bubbly person, like, uh, with an event, sparkle and dance?
Speaker:I'm not really, uh, to be honest, not really seeing
Speaker:myself, although very sparkly.
Speaker:I'm never connected.
Speaker:I don't identify with the work sparkle and dance.
Speaker:It's really funny.
Speaker:Uh, thing we, we identified, uh, ourselves.
Speaker:Somehow.
Speaker:So Sparkle is not something that I would identify to, but, uh,
Speaker:ignition and Ignite and all these kind of more like action based,
Speaker:motorbike terms.
Speaker:Motorbike terms, it's like, yeah, I, I can be a spark plug.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:There's a spark in it.
Speaker:So then we can, can ignite and then we can go, you know, that
Speaker:like, this spirit is really great.
Speaker:and then we figured out like, what's like actually your story, my story,
Speaker:and how can we relate to each other?
Speaker:And then we figured out, like, I see myself as a punk, and Kyle was
Speaker:like, I'm not a punk, I'm a pirate.
Speaker:Okay, what's the pirate?
Speaker:What's the punk?
Speaker:How does this,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm also wearing hats like I'm a pirate.
Speaker:And, and we were like, yeah, these are rebels.
Speaker:Like, and then suddenly we'll be talking and like, yeah, punk, but also
Speaker:like this, and sorry for everybody who identifies as a hippie, I.
Speaker:Do love you because I'm a big hippie punk, but I, you know, I was like, I'm
Speaker:a little bit fed up with this hippie shit, and, and I'm, and I'm, I'm
Speaker:talking about you don't want to slow
Speaker:down.
Speaker:You want to go faster.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I want to go faster, but I see we have to press pause.
Speaker:You know, I, I need it.
Speaker:So how can we come up with a story that we feel connected to, that's our language,
Speaker:which may, which maybe says the same, uh, as every retreat, but I don't want
Speaker:to different, I want to be different.
Speaker:So I want, I wanted to do something different, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker:I want to be different too.
Speaker:Let's do something anti Yes.
Speaker:And this is also kind.
Speaker:The pirate.
Speaker:So that's Kato and the punk, that's me.
Speaker:And then you've got, also, Kato is like, uh, has a a, a deep Buddhistic background.
Speaker:I'm really interested in this philosophy as well.
Speaker:And, and then Kara said like, yeah, but I don't want to be that punk on the
Speaker:barric cage throw, uh, uh, throwing, uh, bottles of, of, uh, what is it called?
Speaker:A Molotov, uh, uh, cocktails, you know,
Speaker:Molotov cocktail.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I, I do, I do though.
Speaker:I do not anymore.
Speaker:I don't wanna do
Speaker:explosions.
Speaker:We don't wanna do explosions.
Speaker:We wanna do sparks, sparkly sparks.
Speaker:So ignite a fire.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And then yes, the story unfolds and that's why it's also nurture your inner rebel.
Speaker:So here's also the, uh, the word of 2025 is paradox.
Speaker:Paradox, paradox.
Speaker:And we noticed that also in our event.
Speaker:The paradox is there.
Speaker:So it's the feistiness, yet with a soft, um, feel.
Speaker:And that's what I love about this.
Speaker:Well, just hearing about this, how, how this collaboration has come
Speaker:about, but also what each of you brings to it and where you meet in
Speaker:the middle, which is really Yeah.
Speaker:Nice to hear that you can work together and, and we also rebel
Speaker:against each other a lot.
Speaker:So a lot not, not to give you a very uh uh, yes.
Speaker:Oh yes.
Speaker:It is a love story, a loving story.
Speaker:But there's also lots of rebellion in, uh, the way we work, how we work, how we want
Speaker:to prove our point is the right point.
Speaker:And then realizing, no, but we're in it together.
Speaker:It's not my point, but it's about the bigger picture.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, think's so.
Speaker:This rebel spirits,
Speaker:that's great.
Speaker:Creative partnership for me is about that, isn't it?
Speaker:And I'm sure whether you're a musician artist like me and Carlos
Speaker:running a business together, you come with your different perspectives.
Speaker:Um, but it's in that tension that the sparks fly, I think, isn't it
Speaker:Well, I guess.
Speaker:I guess so.
Speaker:And it's also, this tension is really interesting.
Speaker:Can be a little bit tedious sometimes or a little bit like exhausting.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Um, what I love is like, what you, what you told before Carl about you and
Speaker:creating community or nurturing community.
Speaker:This is something that also attracts me a lot.
Speaker:I'm totally different.
Speaker:I'm not really the first person to, uh, give you a lot of attention because I'm,
Speaker:I'm not always running, but this is like, community is the first thing that comes
Speaker:to mind for me that's super important.
Speaker:I'm, I'm living, I'm sitting right now in, in a very large building with
Speaker:400 people living around in the same building and, and working around, and
Speaker:it's a very big community and I love to fight for this community as well.
Speaker:So this is also something that brought us together as well.
Speaker:We, we think like, uh, in the same conversation, how can we work together?
Speaker:Like what's the new rebel or.
Speaker:The punk revolution that we can ignite actually, and that's not only
Speaker:putting pause on yourself, but also if we want to, to do stuff different
Speaker:because we have the feeling like we want to change something in the world.
Speaker:What kind of change do we want to bring them was actually, we figured
Speaker:out we do not only want to bring joy or sparks, but we also love
Speaker:if people see each other more.
Speaker:For the humans they are, you know?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:There's a lot of friction going on in the world.
Speaker:There's a lot of oppositions.
Speaker:It would be so lovely to see your neighbor as a person, as a person,
Speaker:and what can we learn from this person and, and maybe we're not
Speaker:always really well connected, but how can we bring connection and mm-hmm.
Speaker:So we decided, actually, this is really rebellious in this world of.
Speaker:Hyper individualism.
Speaker:And although we recognize the same as you guys are doing a lot of build
Speaker:uh, building bridges to together.
Speaker:But, but in our community, there's still, I think, I think
Speaker:we, we continu continuously, sorry for my pro another words.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Sorry for this.
Speaker:Um, we, we need to, I dunno, embrace this and, and, and
Speaker:bring it more into the world.
Speaker:Like how do we connect, how can we get back to being human?
Speaker:And, and this is actually right now, it's really weird, isn't it?
Speaker:This is a, it feels really rebellious to do this.
Speaker:It's an act of rebellion to actually slow down to reconnect to your
Speaker:neighbors or your local community or the people who need to be around you.
Speaker:It's weird though that this sounds rebellious.
Speaker:Well, like you said, you're fighting against the system, which
Speaker:doesn't necessarily promote that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It's um.
Speaker:We need a new system.
Speaker:The current, current system is doing exactly what it needs to do,
Speaker:but it's not what the world needs.
Speaker:I, I heard that the other day and I was like, that's a good point.
Speaker:Capitalism works in a way that it needs to work.
Speaker:And individualists, hyper individualism works in a way that it needs to work.
Speaker:So, uh, if we can offer new solutions or, views on maybe village
Speaker:life is a good way to look at it.
Speaker:So if we come to Happy Startup summer camp, it's a tiny village for a weekend,
Speaker:and, and, uh, there's a campfire and there's a table to sit at and
Speaker:there's dancing and it's just a mini, mini tour, uh, community together.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And if I host Sparkle and Dance, that's also what I see.
Speaker:So we have delicious food available.
Speaker:So you nourish your inner.
Speaker:Human being, and there's lovely music to dance on, so you can shake it off
Speaker:and leave your daily grind behind and just like feel the real you again.
Speaker:uh, and also, uh, maybe to point this out, if you are taking good care of yourself,
Speaker:you can take good care of others.
Speaker:You've, you have heard me said this much often, uh, this is because then
Speaker:your guard goes down and you feel more relaxed and more open, and also you're
Speaker:less clingy to being right, for instance.
Speaker:So being right is a very narrow minded way of trying to grasp onto something.
Speaker:And I think this is also, which comes from Buddhism practicing,
Speaker:uh, meditation and mindfulness to get a flexible mindset because.
Speaker:Nothing is sure in this world except death in Texas.
Speaker:So, mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um, uh, by practicing the Buddhistic way of the mindfulness and then knowing
Speaker:of the not knowing, which also lingers to the liminal space, uh, yeah, it
Speaker:helps you to be more open to the world.
Speaker:So, yes, also, I have a lot of assumptions about a lot of things,
Speaker:and I try to catch myself every time.
Speaker:Like, Ooh, I saw this person and I thought it would be a really unkind person.
Speaker:And then we have a conversation and it turns out to be a
Speaker:love, lovely human being.
Speaker:What made me think that I thought this would be not a nice person, you
Speaker:know, it's all the assumptions and the stories that you have, and if you take
Speaker:the time to relax a little bit, like pause for a little bit, breathe a little
Speaker:bit, and then have an interaction.
Speaker:Uh, also this goes for yourself.
Speaker:So if you have a really struggling conversation with yourself.
Speaker:Breath a little bit, taking a step back and trying again also works.
Speaker:I quite liked what you were just saying, Kara, about being right, and
Speaker:I think there's this, what was coming up for this, so there's the, the
Speaker:difference between being right or being, there's being right and there's being
Speaker:true, and I mean, true to yourself.
Speaker:So there's something around when we are interacting with someone, and
Speaker:I, I was hearing like the creative tension between, between yourself
Speaker:and the other, because you're both trying to be true to yourselves.
Speaker:That whole, so the, the how, the initiative, this, you know, in a rebel,
Speaker:this idea of bringing these two worlds together wasn't about, all right, whose
Speaker:idea am I gonna, uh, whose idea is it and how am I gonna work with that?
Speaker:It's like, how am I gonna bring myself, how am I gonna bring you?
Speaker:Who are we?
Speaker:So that inner clarity, like, I'm a punk, I'm a sparkle person, I'm
Speaker:about rest, I'm about activism.
Speaker:Okay, fine, we got that.
Speaker:Let's put that in a soup.
Speaker:And then what comes out from that as opposed to, you know, manufacturing
Speaker:it just purely from one perspective, but then that, that creates tension.
Speaker:There's uncertainty.
Speaker:Where's it gonna go?
Speaker:And I think there, you know, a lot of us who are maybe wedded to a more structured,
Speaker:safe way of building something.
Speaker:Might be, feel that, feel that there's a risk there.
Speaker:'cause where does it go?
Speaker:We dunno where it's gonna go.
Speaker:How do we can predict what's gonna be, we don't either.
Speaker:Yeah, you're the, but there's, there's stepping into that with that awareness
Speaker:rather than holding on tightly.
Speaker:Like, I gotta have a plan.
Speaker:I gotta know where it's gonna be.
Speaker:You know, if I don't know, and I can relate to that feeling and,
Speaker:and having an, uh, a discerners, which is, when is that required?
Speaker:When do we All right.
Speaker:Need to have the plan and when do we need to be in the limit of space for a bit?
Speaker:Let go.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:I think you said yba lingering.
Speaker:Lingering in the now.
Speaker:That, that feeling I'm sure we can all relate to of like, I wanna
Speaker:move, I want to get out of this.
Speaker:Discomfort.
Speaker:But there's
Speaker:time to, well, to, to give you also a little bit, you know, for me, working with
Speaker:a lot of lingering in the now is because I need this so much because, uh, you talking
Speaker:Carlos about having a structure, most of the times I will be like, a little bit,
Speaker:bit like, uh, on the edge of my seat.
Speaker:Like Kaha, we need to make a structure right now, you know?
Speaker:no, I
Speaker:Need structure.
Speaker:That's what you say.
Speaker:I need structure.
Speaker:I need structure right now.
Speaker:Need, I demand it.
Speaker:And then I'm like, okay, give to me now.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then I say, you don't need structure.
Speaker:We just need to have a walk.
Speaker:And then we go for a walk.
Speaker:I can relate to, yeah, but I've tried to get
Speaker:Kara to do some of the exercises on the program and she's like, it doesn't work.
Speaker:It doesn't
Speaker:work.
Speaker:I don't, you can't me in the box.
Speaker:I'm a creative, actually, actually, you know, although she's saying I'm
Speaker:a pirate, the real rebel could be.
Speaker:Actually, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's an inception.
Speaker:She's, she's never doing what you ask her never working out how you want it to be.
Speaker:What's better, better,
Speaker:better than your imagines ever.
Speaker:It's indeed,
Speaker:it's bad.
Speaker:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:Indeed.
Speaker:The, the, the beauty is about that, uh, actually what you were saying, Carlos,
Speaker:um, allow yourself to just go, which is really difficult and can be really scary.
Speaker:And the fun thing and being together.
Speaker:And this the good part, uh, not only being in a relationship,
Speaker:but also like professionally, we are doing this together.
Speaker:So there's already two persons in.
Speaker:So that's, it gives you some confidence.
Speaker:And then, um, we, uh, we have this awesome team of, uh, uh, creative
Speaker:people all over the world, uh, that cheering, uh, those are cheering
Speaker:us on, so that's also really cool.
Speaker:then, then you're building already a platform.
Speaker:I don't know for, to be honest.
Speaker:we still have to, uh, sell tickets.
Speaker:We're still not done doing this retreat.
Speaker:And we, we set up this ground rules, like what do we want to
Speaker:get out of it and when do we stop?
Speaker:And this morning, uh, we were sit, uh, we were sitting together and was
Speaker:like, okay, yeah, but we decided we actually wanted to earn money with it.
Speaker:But now we already decided we want to continue because it.
Speaker:Because we love the energy coming out of it and maybe the money is
Speaker:getting a little bit, a bit later.
Speaker:So this is this also the struggle, like, investing
Speaker:time, investing energy, building the story.
Speaker:And I think also you were just, when you were just talking Carlos, I realized,
Speaker:uh, we are not building a prod product for people that are asking for something.
Speaker:We are creating something because we feel this is necessary.
Speaker:And this might also be a little bit more, uh, outside of a comfort zone
Speaker:because it's very common nowadays that you click on a link and it says
Speaker:you're buying this, this and this.
Speaker:This will be the result and it costs you 250 euros.
Speaker:Go
Speaker:structure certainty.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So certainty.
Speaker:And, and, and then the philosophical side of your bamy gets the over hunt hand.
Speaker:' cause we're saying yes, and we are not the persons to say what
Speaker:you are getting out of this.
Speaker:We don't know either yet.
Speaker:We do know a lot.
Speaker:So we are giving boundaries.
Speaker:We're setting the frame, and within this frame, the magic will happen.
Speaker:But we also are very aware of the fact that the way of selling
Speaker:magic, uh, is it's not structure.
Speaker:So, uh, maybe this is also for some people who are now interested in
Speaker:coming, but they don't know yet because they're looking for certainty.
Speaker:We can't give certainty, but we can give promises about a space that is well
Speaker:designed, uh, with love and care and attention with human beings that are
Speaker:very capable of being in this world.
Speaker:I love, I love, I love how we're talking about this masculine
Speaker:versus feminine energy, you know, uh, like the, the structure.
Speaker:And, uh, is it really masculine?
Speaker:And like the flowing is like feminine, like how we play with that.
Speaker:And this is the thing that I love, what I would love to bring to the world
Speaker:more like, can we make, give enough structure to play around and play can be
Speaker:like really the fun play, uh, dancing, creating, but, you know, play around
Speaker:can be anything like if, as long as is there room for creativity and, um mm-hmm.
Speaker:I think you're, you're, you're saying it in a really structurized way.
Speaker:Really good.
Speaker:Like, um, we're, we're building a platform where we can also allow
Speaker:ourselves to discover stuff.
Speaker:You know, we're talking about nurturing your inner rebel, but how,
Speaker:I don't know how to nurture a rebel.
Speaker:To be honest.
Speaker:Do you know Lawrence?
Speaker:How do you nurture your inner level?
Speaker:Please tell me.
Speaker:That's why I'm coming.
Speaker:I'm selling this product and I need to know right now.
Speaker:So you guys
Speaker:knew you're the experts.
Speaker:We do have a
Speaker:guide, but Yeah.
Speaker:But I, I like, I like the way you described it when we chat the
Speaker:other day about this is a quest.
Speaker:You're on a quest to understand this better.
Speaker:And by holding that space with others, you can co-create
Speaker:and work, work out solutions.
Speaker:If there are
Speaker:this is a perennial question for anyone we work with in terms of the balance
Speaker:between, um, giving birth to something creative that's yours, that's something
Speaker:that you wanted to, to bring to the world that you are, is connected to your
Speaker:own needs, your own values, something that is, um, close to your heart.
Speaker:And then there is.
Speaker:Making money or building a business or just funding something.
Speaker:Yeah, and just having the, having money to actually make it happen.
Speaker:Because at some level we need to pay suppliers, pay for venues, whatever.
Speaker:It's, and so on one hand, what I was hearing is like, well,
Speaker:we, we don't have a guarantee.
Speaker:We can't tell you what to do.
Speaker:We can't say this is going to happen, but what you can do is
Speaker:really state a clear intention.
Speaker:What you can do is share, where this is coming from at the personal
Speaker:level you can do is tell a story of your own change and your own wishes
Speaker:and what what it means for you.
Speaker:Like hearing you now has helped me understand more and more about why,
Speaker:what's motivating you to do this?
Speaker:Not only a personal story level, but even just what, how do I con, what is it about
Speaker:my own journey that's connecting to this?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:What is it that I want to get on board?
Speaker:What, what's, 'cause there is, there is a story of transformation that
Speaker:I think you're talking about here.
Speaker:Whether it is going from, oh, it's just about taking it easy to being more punk.
Speaker:Or whether it's being very an ignited to, no, actually I need to pause.
Speaker:Like, yeah, I can feel that tension and I can connect to my own need
Speaker:to always be that, you know, I need to pause, but at the same time,
Speaker:I don't wanna just be passive.
Speaker:I wanna do something and then to be around other people.
Speaker:So there's.
Speaker:There's something here that is at some point, I think gets clear,
Speaker:but ultimately it's really about the story and the energy, and I
Speaker:think you used the word magic.
Speaker:It's hard to qualify quite yet.
Speaker:it's also really
Speaker:fun to use this word of magic because there's also, there's this, the,
Speaker:the beauty in the magic that there's always, if, if you put it into your uh,
Speaker:project, then you also allow yourself to see, and also kind of be curious,
Speaker:you know, there's a lot of curiosity in this, being rebellious also, like, you
Speaker:know, with the cur curiosity brings you further then there's no right, no wrong.
Speaker:There's just a result.
Speaker:What you might not really.
Speaker:Searching for.
Speaker:this is, this is what I love about creating this process.
Speaker:And, and yes.
Speaker:And in the end, it is necessary to also make business out of it
Speaker:because we still need to eat.
Speaker:I tried sticks, but it doesn't work.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Uh, and, and, and, and I think this, uh, this is a beautiful project that we
Speaker:already, both having an art background, we know how hard it can be to earn
Speaker:money with more fluid, uh, process.
Speaker:But I, I, I also know that both have had, uh, businesses, so we know how
Speaker:to, to make this into something that's worthwhile, but also worth paying.
Speaker:Mm. And this is,
Speaker:this is the only thing that I recognize is it's for us also a
Speaker:bold movement to just try it again.
Speaker:And we haven't done a, this, this, this, uh.
Speaker:For at least, uh, 10 years.
Speaker:You know, it's 10 years ago that we tried another process.
Speaker:So it's, it's kind of fun to, to rethink how do I come up
Speaker:with a new product right now?
Speaker:How do I, I think it's coming up
Speaker:for me, hearing you talk is there's, 'cause I, I have a feeling like a lot of
Speaker:people sharing in the chat that it'll be great 'cause you guys are at the helm.
Speaker:I think the challenge feels like, working out what the story is and the story that
Speaker:connects with people and makes sense.
Speaker:And I promise that it doesn't deliver.
Speaker:And if it doesn't deliver on that promise, where, where does it leave you?
Speaker:So actually a, by doing it, you'll hear those stories back
Speaker:of what people got from it.
Speaker:But the other thing is, that's coming up for me is there's something about.
Speaker:I know as someone whose ideas are everything, like anyone who works is
Speaker:a knowledge worker or runs their own business, ultimately having space
Speaker:for your ideas is so important.
Speaker:And yet we don't do it enough.
Speaker:We're filling ourselves with stuff all the time.
Speaker:Information's being fed to us, we're listening to stuff.
Speaker:We're reading stuff.
Speaker:We're, you know, just, we don't have space to listen to what's in us.
Speaker:And so what I'm hearing from your work and from what's exciting me is
Speaker:this idea of getting more into your body, first and foremost by moving
Speaker:or playing or using our hands, um, or, or resting, but also creating
Speaker:space for that, those inner ideas.
Speaker:And maybe there, maybe there is a rebel within us that we haven't yet tapped into.
Speaker:' cause you've said I'm a rebel, but you, you've also said, I'm a hippie too, so
Speaker:I'm playing a bit of a role, but today I'm gonna be the punk, you know, so it's
Speaker:not, I'm that person all the time fully.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:there's different types of stories within you.
Speaker:Uh, so for most, maybe most people will recognize the, the teenage
Speaker:rebel that doesn't wanna do homework.
Speaker:' cause I met, I met her again during Phish 2020.
Speaker:She's like, no, well, homework sucks.
Speaker:Who, who are those guys that tell me what to do?
Speaker:I'm not gonna do homework.
Speaker:And then adults, Kara was like, yeah, but I signed up for
Speaker:this program, I wanna do this.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But it took me four weeks to get into the mode of I'm actually
Speaker:going to do some homework.
Speaker:So, getting into a mindset of a, recognizing the rebel and what it wants
Speaker:to tell you, that's, uh, also a really good story that, that we're selling, I
Speaker:guess.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I guess also like harvesting the energy of the rebel.
Speaker:So me, uh, um, more, I'm more from this like.
Speaker:Uh, a very energetic background.
Speaker:Also, like very, uh, uh, aggressive way of rebels for me.
Speaker:tying myself to trees, uh, uh, shouting at the police, sitting
Speaker:down, uh, uh, doing riots and stuff.
Speaker:Um, you know, in a way it's like really explosive and, uh, her and me were talking
Speaker:to each other, like, how does it work?
Speaker:Like if you've got a rebel and you recognize your rebel, how can you
Speaker:harvest the energy whilst not exploding?
Speaker:The, you know, this explosion energy makes a gap.
Speaker:You have to repair the road before you can make a fundamental for a new building.
Speaker:So explosion is not really something that we want anymore, but so,
Speaker:so there's this, this rebels.
Speaker:You can spark a rebel, but maybe you can also learn a little bit from this
Speaker:energy and tone it a little bit down so you can, uh, I dunno, progress a
Speaker:little bit longer on the same energy.
Speaker:And also, if you're right,
Speaker:makes it sustainable.
Speaker:Doesn't that It's sustain Sustainable.
Speaker:Sustainable, yes.
Speaker:More robust.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And also a lot of people have this rebel energy already in them and try to change
Speaker:something in their, world around them.
Speaker:Can, can walk up the walls.
Speaker:I dunno if this is a English saying, but, uh, uh, so, sometimes you need to get
Speaker:back to like, what does this rebel need?
Speaker:And I think this is, how can we nurture this rebel and also make,
Speaker:make it sustainable for yourself and, and still love the rebel.
Speaker:Who wants to say, fuck you.
Speaker:I won't do what you tell me.
Speaker:Yes, please.
Speaker:I, I was thinking,
Speaker:I was thinking if, can I say this
Speaker:right here?
Speaker:Thank very much.
Speaker:I just did.
Speaker:You just did.
Speaker:exactly that.
Speaker:maybe taking it back to the idea of selling this idea.
Speaker:And when I think of selling, uh, it's not about convincing someone to do something.
Speaker:It's connecting with the people who are already wanting
Speaker:to do it in the first place.
Speaker:And, and the most important thing that I've, I've learned is to have
Speaker:a really clear story about that.
Speaker:What you guys are doing right now is this real sense of like, this is the
Speaker:kind of person, this is the kind of energy, this is the kind of place.
Speaker:And you're saying, oh, I don't really have a, dunno what the promise is.
Speaker:I dunno what we're trying, you're telling the story of the outcome
Speaker:you're trying to create already.
Speaker:And so having that, you know, and it's, it's the work in a sense is
Speaker:having that so clear and simply said.
Speaker:And then the other part of that is having that spread as far as possible, because
Speaker:it isn't about, all right, I wanna try and convince people around me to do this.
Speaker:It's like, where are all the people out there who really wanna do
Speaker:this, but just don't know where we're here, that we're here.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And
Speaker:so this is kind of an invitation to anyone listening to this.
Speaker:Watching this now is like, if this, if you know that story, spread the story you
Speaker:be, you know, if it might not be for you, but it's, if you have a story that that
Speaker:can be shared to the, the right person who needs to be at this event can do it,
Speaker:then it's not allowed selling anymore.
Speaker:It's about, yes, I want to come and, okay, how much is it?
Speaker:Full stop.
Speaker:So we've got a couple of questions from, uh, from Tia.
Speaker:I'm curious to maybe look at these.
Speaker:Uh, so one question around, But, um, what does enough structure look like?
Speaker:I. This one.
Speaker:So when you are talking about this event, it brings up, well it makes me
Speaker:think of aptitude and how we host that.
Speaker:Carlos.
Speaker:You know, the retreat we run there is structure.
Speaker:It's much looser than the structure we have at summer camp.
Speaker:Summer camp is a lot more, uh, programs.
Speaker:We have talks, we have workshops, we have activities.
Speaker:Altitude is much more emergent in terms of what happens, what gets
Speaker:discussed, the conversations that happen, the, the sessions that get run.
Speaker:But there is a structure there.
Speaker:this is for, this is based on just purely what I've learned.
Speaker:I don't, I don't, I'm not saying I've read anything about this or researched
Speaker:this, but be purely from experience.
Speaker:My perspective on this is the more clear you are about the journey,
Speaker:the more clear you are about the outcome, the more structure you will
Speaker:put in is this, is this is this.
Speaker:You are going to follow this structure.
Speaker:And the more it's about people needing the guidance, needing a certain answer,
Speaker:the more structure you'll put in, the more it's about exploration, the more
Speaker:it's about people coming and contributing.
Speaker:The structure is less about what you do.
Speaker:The structure is more about how do we behave with each other?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:What
Speaker:is the cadence?
Speaker:Where do we turn up?
Speaker:How do we interact?
Speaker:To give people a sense of knowing where to be and when and when in that.
Speaker:And then creating a safe container or a clear, well safe in the sense
Speaker:of we know how we're all gonna behave here, but what happens in
Speaker:that container I have no control of, I'm not sure what's gonna happen.
Speaker:And so enough structure for me is about understanding who's gonna
Speaker:turn up and what is the intention.
Speaker:if I should answer this question, we have three topics.
Speaker:So it's reconnect, recharge, and reignite.
Speaker:So we have figured out some activities around those topics that people can do.
Speaker:Uh, mostly creative things like drawing, writing, singing, moving your body.
Speaker:dressing up slash making your own outfit kind of thing.
Speaker:because for us, a creative thing feels natural.
Speaker:So our structure is a, is one of creativity.
Speaker:and also what you just mentioned in the second part, it's an exploration.
Speaker:So it's about people coming together.
Speaker:And we have of course, a timing.
Speaker:We start on Saturday noon, and it'll end on Sunday at eight
Speaker:in the af in the evening.
Speaker:We start with becoming a group, and then we end with giving
Speaker:yourself back to yourself again and celebrate, uh, at sparkle and dance.
Speaker:Sparkle and, and dance is the end party of, uh, the closing party,
Speaker:sorry, of, uh, of the retreat.
Speaker:So by giving these topics, it might also emerge for you what, which part
Speaker:of your, your inner rebel needs to be.
Speaker:Giving some attention.
Speaker:So it might be the re-ignition, it might be the reconnection,
Speaker:it might be the re recharging.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And also what I, I think, um, coming back on like how much
Speaker:structure do you wanna give?
Speaker:Uh, it depends also on what people are coming.
Speaker:So, right now we also have this in the program, magic moments.
Speaker:And that's actually, uh, something that is probably just figuring out what it wants
Speaker:to be, maybe just in front, because we figure out what kind of people are coming.
Speaker:But also during the program, because a lot of really interesting magical
Speaker:moments are actually not something that you can come up with in front.
Speaker:And, a magic moment could be a conversation at the dinner table.
Speaker:With somebody you don't know.
Speaker:much, that's also what you guys say about summer camp.
Speaker:It's not about the talks, but it's about the moments in between.
Speaker:It's maybe standing in line at the toilet and then having an insight and
Speaker:sharing it with the person behind you.
Speaker:So we also realize that that's the thing you can't control.
Speaker:so we're trying also to, to make enough, uh, we give enough structure
Speaker:for somebody who needs to know, like, okay, what kind of workshops can we get?
Speaker:Or what can, what can we come and do?
Speaker:But also there's in the program magic moments and, and that's, uh,
Speaker:something we want to emphasize, that you are on your own to create
Speaker:your, uh, your magic over there.
Speaker:And, and it's not something that you really have to do.
Speaker:We, we really think that's, that's already emerging on itself.
Speaker:So we're trying to, to figure out still the balance?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:To balance it out.
Speaker:Indeed.
Speaker:so there's a, as I was thinking is because part of this for me is
Speaker:creating safety for the right people.
Speaker:And there are some people who don't want structure.
Speaker:They want chaos.
Speaker:They want anarchy because they really love that space.
Speaker:And to other people, that is the worst thing ever.
Speaker:And then there's other people who really want a really rigid ba ba,
Speaker:ba. And so there's this real kind of, I think what I'm hearing is you're
Speaker:talking about paradox, you're talking about, and I hear that as nuance.
Speaker:It's like combination of the two, because you want safety as well as act ignition.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, um, so, uh, Thea is also saying like, ma ma magic moments feel like
Speaker:living in and noticing through gratitude.
Speaker:Like, yeah.
Speaker:I think it's also something like understanding what people need to,
Speaker:what you need to give to people.
Speaker:So it's a lot about creating safe spaces and anarchy can be really,
Speaker:uh, cool, but also really violent for some people, as you're saying Carlos.
Speaker:And so it's not about, uh, creating as much diffusion for us, but,
Speaker:but still also within this anarch anarchy moments, you can create
Speaker:certain stability so people can.
Speaker:Recognize how they can move around.
Speaker:You know, it's like also recognition in how you can behave.
Speaker:Uh, giving some building, uh, blocks or stepping stones for
Speaker:people, uh, can be enough.
Speaker:So, uh, to make it a little bit more tangible, it's like, uh, creating, uh,
Speaker:uh, so coming to the rebel, a retreat or the anti retreat to say, to say properly,
Speaker:it's, it's like constantly changing.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um, it's like, uh, if you make up, like what, uh, make a, make a a button saying
Speaker:like, I'm, uh, I dunno a pirate right now.
Speaker:It could be a conversation starter, but it's also a stepping stone to how do
Speaker:you move around in the space, you know?
Speaker:And then it's not fully, uh, set how, what you, what you're gonna do.
Speaker:So, um, we're, we're, we're, we're figuring it out along
Speaker:the way and trying stuff.
Speaker:Well, the thing I love about this is it's for those that wanna.
Speaker:Feel like they're contributing, not just being passive.
Speaker:That's what I'm getting from it.
Speaker:It's like, choose your own adventure.
Speaker:You come along and this ties into all of your work, I think, in terms of this
Speaker:liminal space of you're in a space of not knowing, but through that you, you
Speaker:could potentially get more value because you're not just, you know, you're not
Speaker:just set, sat there passively consuming an experience, listening to talks all day.
Speaker:You are actually in it and, uh, moving through it.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And I thi I also think it's really interesting that we,
Speaker:that we are capable persons.
Speaker:Everybody's capable of having very intelligent conversations and trusting on
Speaker:that is, and making space for that is, is something, uh, what we try to do as well.
Speaker:but that's just the talking 'cause we're gonna do a lot of doing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We're actually not gonna talk.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:talking.
Speaker:If there's one thing I've
Speaker:learned about running events is.
Speaker:People think they want structure and then they get there and they, they
Speaker:want no structure as car approved when you signed up to Vision 2020.
Speaker:so there is something about, I think deep down, we all want space.
Speaker:We all want, we don't wanna be told where to be every minute
Speaker:to be programmed by the minute.
Speaker:We do wanna be able to just have a conversation and sit over
Speaker:dinner or move about without, you know, having to be somewhere.
Speaker:So there is that balance, I think, isn't there, giving people some certainty
Speaker:of what they might get from this experience, but also leaving lots of
Speaker:room for emergence in that process.
Speaker:Carlos, what are you taking away from this?
Speaker:Um, firstly, uh, I'm feeling jealous now because I can't come.
Speaker:That's what it's all about.
Speaker:Uh, yeah, I, I, I definitely value the, the intention of the space.
Speaker:I think it the, if I was going to sell the idea.
Speaker:Is is anyone who is on this transition and in a transition of wanting to be
Speaker:more creative, maybe they've lived a structured life, but they realize
Speaker:they wanna move into a new space.
Speaker:And I think about, in my case, the people I'm focused on,
Speaker:the, the midlife transition.
Speaker:You, you've lived life a certain way, now you wanna change it up, use all of that
Speaker:knowledge, but to do something different.
Speaker:But that means being creative, finding your inner rebel, finding a new way,
Speaker:a new path that breaks a system that you've been well, breaks away from a
Speaker:system that you're used to, but you're a bit scared, so you want to be around
Speaker:people who kind of feed that energy.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Sounds like a great place to do.
Speaker:That sounds like the perfect place to, be your inner activist as well.
Speaker:Um, and I love the balance of energies that both of you and the honesty
Speaker:you're bringing to it as well.
Speaker:'cause I think that's, that's gonna be the key part.
Speaker:Of people connecting to this event is, is authentic.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Uh, and that, that's what people are missing these days.
Speaker:Oh, I'm looking forward to looking back to this recording because I think
Speaker:the story is even more clear now, uh, that we had a really, nourishing
Speaker:conversation that you ask good questions.
Speaker:I think we gave good answers to, yeah.
Speaker:And also I hope, uh, the right people will find us, uh, and, and by, by this
Speaker:nice conversation we're adding to the ripple effect of getting the story out.
Speaker:Sometimes we can sound more clear and confident than we feel like we are.
Speaker:So yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker:Yba, how about you?
Speaker:Well, I, I still love it that we're, always fluidly figuring out what
Speaker:we're doing and that I still feel that there's lots, lots to learn.
Speaker:And that's a journey we started, uh, with a lot of adventures, moments in it.
Speaker:Um, I'm taking away that this is a beautiful story to unfold in front of us.
Speaker:And the great community as well.
Speaker:Happy startup also for you guys, so.
Speaker:Thanks for hosting us.
Speaker:Not a pleasure and
Speaker:supporting.
Speaker:We're very happy by the support of everybody.
Speaker:So
Speaker:so yeah, for me, I'm just excited about the work you're doing.
Speaker:Um, I'm doing this course at the moment with Brian, you know, the,
Speaker:the songwriter and he talks in that about artists being world makers, like
Speaker:creators of worlds and like we were talking about earlier, I just love the
Speaker:idea of the world that you're creating and it feels, exciting to be part of.
Speaker:I don't even know what I'm doing when I get there.
Speaker:So that's also a bit scary but exciting too.
Speaker:So there's an element of Jeopardy, which I think I. Creates that, that sparkle
Speaker:that you guys talk about so much.
Speaker:So thank you for your time.
Speaker:Thanks everyone for listening.
Speaker:All the engagement in the chat
Speaker:Thank you very much.
Speaker:Thanks guys.
Speaker:Have a good weekend guys.
Speaker:Take care.
Speaker:Nice one.
Speaker:Have a good one.
