Episode 108
The truth about money
We believe that money is a law of nature and is as real as the metal or paper it’s made of. We give it power and even say it makes the world go round. And this is where we can get unstuck.
We give money more power than we need to. But money is really neutral screen on which we project our fantasies, desires, and insecurities.
In this episode, Carlos speaks with Nadjeschda Taranczewski, CEO of Conscious-U, and coach to CEOs and founders who want to reinvent their organisations. They talk about the three different types of projections we can have on money and how they affect our behaviour. And they explore how we can shift our relationship to it by dealing with these projections more playfully.
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Transcript
One of the things I remember as a child, thinking about, well, actually, I, I had wrote this down in my diary and like, there's three things I wanted to achieve by the age of 30 and one was to be a doctor.
Carlos:Uh, the other one was to get a black belt in martial arts, and the third one was to be a millionaire.
Carlos:And I had no idea why, but I thought if I, if I got a million, if I was a millionaire by the age of 30, then everything was good, and that was it.
Carlos:And so there's something around, I think this idea around status and this, uh, having a certain level of material wealth was the measure of my success.
Carlos:And, and something that my parents would always were very, I can remember I did a PhD in physics.
Carlos:And I remember having to justify that to my dad because like, what are you gonna do PhD in physics?
Carlos:Like, well, you know, I could then go into the finance sector with all that knowledge.
Carlos:There's a back, you know, basically there's a fallback plan, even though, I dunno what the first plan was in, in the first place.
Carlos:First of all.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:You know, you know, you can still make a lot of money if you know this stuff.
Carlos:And so, um, I, I think for me it was this understanding around what, uh, Money really is or what, how it really plays what role it plays in my life.
Carlos:So that's one curiosity and also some mutual friends of ours really got me thinking about this stuff about five or six years ago.
Carlos:Charles Davies and Tom Nixon.
Carlos:And, and to be honest, at the time I can remember Charles was doing a workshop at one of our Happy Startup Summercamp, and, and I, I can remember walking in about 10 minutes into it and they were saying, what is money type thing?
Carlos:And I, I immediately kind of go, it's a, you know, system of exchange of value, blah, blah.
Carlos:Anyway, some kind of story.
Carlos:And I didn't really get what was going on and what the conversation was about.
Carlos:Um, and I, it took me a few years to, to really understand it.
Carlos:So that's the pre the sort, the precursor to, to bit with this.
Carlos:More presently, I think one of the things that is really interesting for me is particularly the kind of work that we do around starting a new business, starting a new venture.
Carlos:Um, on one hand, you know, we call Startup.
Carlos:A lot of people wanna build something and they feel like, if I don't get any funding, I don't get any investment, I won't be able to start this thing.
Carlos:Or they start something and they're not trying to sell it.
Carlos:And, and how awkward that feels, and how challenging that feels to actually do that selling piece, because they don't wanna talk about money, um, or when they are selling, and they are, you know, putting a price on things, they feel, uh, nearly apologetic about how much they're going to charge.
Carlos:And, and there's a judgment about how much money they're allowed to earn.
Carlos:Uh, and so all of this feels like it's connected somehow.
Carlos:Um, and that's why I'm talking to you.
Carlos:And so maybe to start with, this is another, hopefully everyone's listening to this now, has got a feel for where we're trying to go with this.
Carlos:But to begin with, what I thought is maybe share a little bit about your work at the moment, Nadje, what you do, um, and maybe a little, little history of how you got to doing this work and what, yeah.
Carlos:what were the little steps along the way, maybe.
Carlos:That were use or pointed you in this direction.
Nadjeschda:Hmm.
Nadjeschda:Thank you Carlos.
Nadjeschda:And, and thank you again for having me.
Nadjeschda:So, um, let's see.
Nadjeschda:By background, I'm a psychologist and I've been working as a coach for, gosh, now 20 years, I'm, I'm sort of your age, I think even a bit older than you, so we've been around the block for a while and, um, as part of my role as a psychologist and coach, I did a lot of coaching in organizations with top management teams, sort of the first two levels of organizations, moving quite quickly into a realm where we would take, um, leadership teams and organizations to affect a mindset shift and to help them realize that what happens in the organization from a culture perspective is a highly influential in how they feel about life, because that's where we spend so much time, right?
Nadjeschda:And if the culture of our organization is toxic, we are bound to have a pretty shitty life.
Nadjeschda:And if it's a healthy culture, wellbeing is, is much closer to be had.
Nadjeschda:And of course, the traditional approach has always been to take leadership teams and then sort of hope by their enlightenment of what, what they take in will trickle down in the organization.
Nadjeschda:And after doing that for a number of years, I realized that doesn't work.
Nadjeschda:Um, and, and, and you know, the, the reason for that is, is probably also not, not really rocket science, because for one, I realize if I have an understanding for myself that doesn't necessarily put me in a position where I can give that to somebody else.
Nadjeschda:So for me to enlighten my teams after I've been to a leadership training is, is maybe a bit too much to, to, to be asked of me as a, as a leader in an organization.
Nadjeschda:The second thing is that I realized it needs a significant number of people in the system to really shift the system.
Nadjeschda:So if we ever only touch leaders, we are not going to change organizational cultures for good.
Nadjeschda:The next piece was, uh, because it's expensive to have coaches like us in, in a company, uh, it's not scalable because they will only ever send the, the top level leadership to these kind of trainings.
Nadjeschda:Um, and then the, the final bit is really about time, because I also realized too, Uh, undergo a true transformation takes time.
Nadjeschda:So to go to a three day workshop may be an amazing experience, but it's not going to change your life, right?
Nadjeschda:It needs longer for us to really embed, integrate these types of learnings.
Nadjeschda:So, long story short, I, um, created Conscious U about four years ago with the intention to create a scalable inner work program that can be scaled across organizations and where you can take, you know, a thousand people at the same time through the same process, and therefore also democratize access to this type of learning.
Nadjeschda:And as part of this whole package, uh, along my own developmental path, I met, uh, a man who you also, uh, at least know of through, uh, Tom and, and Charles, uh, Tom, uh, Peter Koenig who is, uh, a management consultant and wise man who taught me what I know today about money.
Nadjeschda:And so what I learned about 18 years ago was his approach of looking at money and then realizing the more I began to integrate that into my work with clients, the more I today actually believe if we want to shift systems, including the global system that we have, which is, you know, not working as we see because this planet is about to collapse, I do believe now we really need to look at our relationship with money, because that's driving most of our decisions that seem to be so irrational.
Nadjeschda:But they're driven by, by greed, they're driven by fields that are not conscious to us.
Nadjeschda:And that's why I think money is sort of a, should be front and center in, in all of personal development.
Carlos:I can remember when I first heard about this work, I really didn't understand how does that work?
Carlos:Why is that, why, why look at money.
Carlos:You talked about greed and scarcity.
Carlos:I think that's, that seems very, they, they seem quite easy, um, things to connect to money, uh, particularly the kinds of films we see like Wolf of Wall Street or, uh, know.
Carlos:I can remember what was the one with Michael Douglas where he says, greed is good?
Carlos:Oh, please say that in a chat if you can remember.
Nadjeschda:I think Wall Street, right?
Nadjeschda:That was the first one, yeah.
Carlos:Wall Street.
Carlos:That's it.
Nadjeschda:Yeah,
Carlos:Exactly.
Carlos:And so there's that.
Carlos:But then is there, there's more to this, it sounds like.
Nadjeschda:Yeah, yeah, no.
Carlos:Maybe explain a bit more in terms.
Nadjeschda:Okay.
Nadjeschda:So let, let me see if I can, you know, because of course, you know, it took me years to really wrap my head around this because much like you, when I went to Peter's first workshop 18 years ago, part of me was like, what, what is happening?
Nadjeschda:Like, none of this really made sense.
Nadjeschda:But somehow could feel that he was touching something real.
Nadjeschda:So I never let go until I fully understood it.
Nadjeschda:But let's rewind to, to a statement that you actually had at, at the beginning of our conversation where you said, Um, in this workshop that Charlie gave in, in, in your group, um, it was at looking at what is money, right?
Nadjeschda:And so that's often one of the entry points for this type of work.
Nadjeschda:We, we literally take a flip chat and we ask everybody to write down what is money?
Nadjeschda:And, or we, you know, we ask people in the room, and then what you get are statements like, money is freedom, money is responsibility.
Nadjeschda:Um, money is, um, corruption, money is dirty, money is fun.
Nadjeschda:Um, yeah, so you have this, you know, wide array of words and meanings on the flip chart.
Nadjeschda:And then the question really is if all of that is money, Depending on how you look at it, apparently.
Nadjeschda:Then what is money?
Nadjeschda:And what Peter came up with, uh, nearly 40 years ago now, was that he said, ultimately, money is a projection screen.
Nadjeschda:So we seem to be projecting human qualities that are actually innate to human nature, like freedom, like, uh, responsibility, like corruption, like reed, like Happiness, like fun, yeah?
Nadjeschda:Those are, those are human qualities.
Nadjeschda:They, they don't belong to a substance, they belong to who we are at our very core.
Nadjeschda:But for some reason, and you know, then there's more to that story of how that actually is created.
Nadjeschda:But for some reason, what he observed is that people seem to be splitting off certain elements of what is part of their human identity, or should be part of their human identity, and they projected onto this empty screen, which is money.
Nadjeschda:And then he observed because people seem to be doing that, there are three different types of projections that people generally seem to have.
Nadjeschda:So the first type of projections are people who have, and, and here the keyword is unconscious projections, right?
Nadjeschda:Because I don't know how, how deeply you dig into that in your startup school, but what we now know from neuroscience is the entire world is a projection, right?
Nadjeschda:That the amount of data coming into our brains needing to be processed is so big, um, and, and what we ultimately work with is so little that what I perceive as reality is really a creation of my brain anyway.
Nadjeschda:So this is not about saying we need to stop projecting because we, we can't yeah?
Nadjeschda:We do that.
Nadjeschda:However, there's a huge difference between am I projecting consciously or unconsciously?
Nadjeschda:So if I have unconscious positive projections on this projection screen of money, I will say things like, uh, money is security, money is freedom, money is fun.
Nadjeschda:Now, if I have that projection on money, the movement that is created in me is to run after money, right?
Nadjeschda:Because that means there's a magical substance which is outside of me, and I need to have that because there's a deep set belief in me that unless I have money, I can never be free, I can never be secure, and I possibly can never have fun.
Nadjeschda:Now, that is the motor of greed, right?
Nadjeschda:So, so then I am caught in a, in a trap if you want, because the, the problem with, with these types of projections is that money is a moving target.
Nadjeschda:So if I once thought, you know, if I have a million, uh, you know, whatever, pounds, euros, dollars in the bank I made, yeah?
Nadjeschda:By the time I have 500,000 at the very latest, my target has already gone up because my reference system changes the people I hang out with change.
Nadjeschda:Right.
Nadjeschda:My, my entire view of life has changed.
Nadjeschda:So suddenly I think, well, maybe 500,000 really?
Nadjeschda:Or a million really isn't enough.
Nadjeschda:Maybe I need five, right?
Nadjeschda:And this projection screen though, keeps moving away from me as I'm making progress towards that goal.
Nadjeschda:And I recently talked to a friend who, um, is, is working in the US for, a family capital management fund.
Nadjeschda:And he said, there was a study recently where they talked to millionaires and they asked them, you know, different level of millionaires, like, you know, small millionaires all the way to billionaires.
Nadjeschda:And they asked them how much more money than what you currently have do you think you need to be, to be happy and to feel secure?
Nadjeschda:And every single one of them named a number that was at least double of what they had, if not triple, of what they had, regardless of the level at which they were at, right?
Nadjeschda:So that, for me, has proved that this projection screen is moving away from you as you're moving forward.
Nadjeschda:The second type of projections are the opposite.
Nadjeschda:They're unconscious negative projections.
Nadjeschda:So if you talk to people with those types of projections, if you really dig down, they might say things like, you know, money is mean, money is dirty, money is greed, money is corruption, money is manipulation.
Nadjeschda:If I have these unconscious projections on money, again, I have split off something that is part of my human nature, and I put it outside of me, right?
Nadjeschda:So I don't deal with this as part of my personality anymore, it's somewhere else, but now I don't want to be associated with those qualities because they're all Aly in my value system.
Nadjeschda:Therefore, the movement I create is an unconscious movement of pushing money out of my system, right?
Nadjeschda:And what we very often find is people who have these very strong unconscious projections on money, they're the typical candidate who simply, whatever they do, everything fails, right?
Nadjeschda:They, they just cannot even generate money.
Nadjeschda:It just, it's elusive.
Nadjeschda:It, it moves away from them, it evaporates as, as soon as they set their eyes on it, all their ventures go bust, right?
Nadjeschda:Um, and then we have a third type, which is, uh, Uh, what Peter lovingly called the washing machine, and I would say for a long time I would've counted myself as, uh, an unconscious washing machine.
Nadjeschda:And these people tend to, uh, fluctuate between greed and disgust, right.
Nadjeschda:So first there's an element of greater, part of me wants money.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Nadjeschda:Much like you, when I was asked, uh, you know, with 10 years, eight, what do you wanna be when you're grown up?
Nadjeschda:I said, I wanna be rich.
Nadjeschda:Right?
Nadjeschda:So that part of me runs after money.
Nadjeschda:But then once I had money and I was quite good at generating money, then suddenly I couldn't be with that money.
Nadjeschda:I, I, it didn't feel right.
Nadjeschda:I felt guilty for it.
Nadjeschda:And I, you know, I felt guilty for having so much more than other people and, and even just my surroundings.
Nadjeschda:So I started to give money away and hand it out and, and, you know, not that there's anything wrong with doing that, but if you do it unconsciously, um, then it's a driven from a, from a shadow really, and not from a good intention, because what I'm really trying to do is ease and unease within myself, rather than being focused on the person that I'm giving the money to.
Nadjeschda:So these three types create the dynamic that we see in the world today.
Nadjeschda:So we have a small percentage of people that truly have very deeply rooted unconscious positive projections on money.
Nadjeschda:And we have a huge percentage of people have deeply rooted negative or mixed, at least mixed projections on money.
Nadjeschda:And they push all the money in the world into the hands of those that can never have enough.
Nadjeschda:So their piles keep grow, growing and growing and growing, whereas everybody else has, has just struggled even harder.
Nadjeschda:Let me, um, give you a little nugget from, from the money work that I now do a lot, which is most people like to think that they have unconscious positive projections on money, but when we begin to really dig deep into their family story with money, um, you know, because there's, this is all also connected to interpersonal trauma, um, intergenerational trauma, right?
Nadjeschda:So, so everything in your family history that hasn't been resolved around identity, around self-worth, um, around, um, you know, maybe being subjugated to, um, structural races and these kind of things that will all show up in your unconscious projections on money.
Nadjeschda:So the best litmus test for what type you are is actually to look at your story with money and what your account tells you about money.
Nadjeschda:If you have tons of money in your account, but still feel somewhat antsy about how much you have and wondering or, or fearing it might not be enough, you probably have unconscious positive projections on money.
Nadjeschda:If you are always in minus, always in the red.
Nadjeschda:Then you probably have a lot of unconscious negative projections.
Nadjeschda:And if your account also tends to go like that, then you might be the washing machine.
Carlos:there's a, there's a few things that was bringing to mind.
Carlos:Firstly, I think there's a, there's an aspect of living in the, what feels like a very transactional world.
Nadjeschda:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:Personally, from my own personal experience, it's like in a world where, um, most things that you need, you need to buy, you need to pay money for.
Carlos:And so there's a, you know, if I want to treat myself, I spend money if I want to feel certain emotions and whether they're excitement and then I, I can spend money, whether that's go to a fun fair or watch a film or go to the restaurant.
Carlos:And so there's, I can imagine, I can understand from the unconscious positive perspective, it kind of like, yeah.
Carlos:It's like if I want something pleasant for myself, I need to spend money and so I need to acquire money in order for those things to happen.
Carlos:And then, but then there's something here around what's deep down within myself that I want to fix or heal, or change or something that's, that's, that's missing, that I kind of feel can only be solved or fixed or changed through money.
Nadjeschda:Well, I mean, firstly, where it's coming from I, I assume, has a lot to do with what you already named and what Kate also, um, mentioned here in the chat about, uh, how intergenerational family history plays out, right.
Nadjeschda:So that might be a, a case in, in your particular case as well, frankly, as it is for all of us.
Nadjeschda:So what, what I would say money work requires is to really unearth these deep-seated beliefs and, and, you know, and, and in a sense they even go deeper than beliefs because ultimately they have a lot to do with our identity.
Nadjeschda:Because what capitalism has achieved is actually something quite sinister in a way, because it's not really measuring anymore the value of our work.
Nadjeschda:What it is actually measuring today, or seems to be measuring for most of us is the value of who we are, right?
Nadjeschda:And we've become so addicted to money that not making money is nearly like a sentence about the, the quality of your character or something, right?
Nadjeschda:So, so therefore, to redeem ourselves to be a worthwhile human being, we need to be successful in life.
Nadjeschda:And, and that's sort of the myth that we've been sold into.
Nadjeschda:And I do, you know, even though I also like success and I do like material things, it's, it's not about that.
Nadjeschda:But the, the implicit promise of capitalism is a, you're a worthwhile human being if you, if, if you're successful and the measure of your success is usually how much money you make with, with, with what you do.
Nadjeschda:But also the other one is if you just struggle hard enough, right?
Nadjeschda:If you, in this, I always envision this golden hamster wheel where the promise is you work.
Nadjeschda:For your work, you get money.
Nadjeschda:And then because, um, most people do work that is actually quite painful to them, that, that their soul really doesn't enjoy very much.
Nadjeschda:Then you have this bandaid, and the bandaid is, um, consumption, right?
Nadjeschda:You, you buy yourself stuff.
Nadjeschda:But of course then the, the, the wheel, you have to keep turning the wheel faster and faster and faster because again, it keeps being this moving target.
Nadjeschda:So the more you consume, the more you have to work in usually a job that you don't enjoy.
Nadjeschda:And, and therefore this wheel keeps going, keeps going, keeps, keeps going.
Nadjeschda:And, and what I think we need to do is to, on a very fundamental level, look at is this the game that I want to be playing, right?
Nadjeschda:Because we're, we, we've bought into a definition of success that actually makes us sick, and it makes the planet sick.
Nadjeschda:And, and you know, when, when did this start that we began to categorize everything in monetary terms?
Nadjeschda:And, and, you know, and why is an hour of my work, which I charge somewhere between 500 and 800 euros for why, why, you know, on some level it's insane.
Nadjeschda:Why is that more worth than my hairdresser who charges 50 or 60 euros an hour, right?
Nadjeschda:So I'm playing this game as well, but I think the first step that we all at least need to do is take one step back and look at the insanity of the game that we are playing.
Nadjeschda:I do think that we all have a bit of a immune response right now to a certain type of capitalism where we already sense this isn't really healthy also for us personally, but we don't know what, what the alternative is right now because it feels like a law of nature.
Nadjeschda:And we need to remind ourselves that it's not because we made this, we can unmake it or recreate it.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:When you say law of nature, this whole, the phrase money makes the world go round and that story that we've been ,Well, I remember being taught.
Nadjeschda:Yeah, of course.
Nadjeschda:We bought into that.
Carlos:I'm re I, this is quite a visceral reaction I had when you talked about, you know, we we're in this hamster wheel or we just, we're we earning money in a way that causes us pain in order to buy stuff to relieve the pain.
Carlos:Which just sounds like insane.
Carlos:It's like completely insane.
Carlos:It's like, okay, if I hit my hand with a hammer long enough, someone's gonna basically get me a nice ice pack to like, heal the, heal the wound.
Carlos:So it's like, okay.
Carlos:Which in one hand I think also could have the, you know, if I have that realization, it's like, oh no, the hammer is evil.
Carlos:You know, making money is evil.
Carlos:I should stop doing that completely.
Carlos:Which when we can maybe go into that.
Carlos:And then the other point of interest for me was around the, um, the idea of the game.
Carlos:And I dunno, this might not be the best analogy for some people, but it works for me, is I love basketball.
Nadjeschda:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:And I really enjoy basketball.
Carlos:It's the fun game.
Carlos:I really enjoy playing it.
Carlos:But I would never, I don't think ever succeed particularly well professionally given my height.
Carlos:And so, there is this ama, there is this game that's being played that the measure of success to a certain level is how tall you are and how well you can dunk.
Carlos:I'm moving very simplistic here.
Carlos:I'm never going to be that tool and I don't, I can't dunk.
Carlos:But that does not make me a valueless person.
Carlos:But if I play that game
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:Then my measure of how valuable I am, well, I, I could objectively say, yeah, I accept I'm never gonna be the, a success within that game.
Carlos:And so the, the stretching this a bit is like, there is this game where we play with money.
Carlos:And if you follow the rules in a certain way and you, In this case, create things that people perceive as something that you would pay lots of money for, then you can succeed.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:But then you could create beautiful things that people might not wanna pay lots of money for, for whatever reason, but it doesn't stop it making being beautiful or being of value.
Nadjeschda:Well, e exactly.
Nadjeschda:I mean, because then I think the, the, you know, what if we created a different game, going back to the game metaphor, right?
Nadjeschda:Because the, the game we've been playing is basically a game which we now accept as normal because everybody on the planet is playing the same game, which is again, this promise of, you know, you just work hard enough, you turn the wheel quickly enough.
Nadjeschda:And actually there's, there's sort of an, an even more sinister implicit promise there because the promise is if you turn the wheel fast enough for long enough, then at some point you will have enough money to get out of the hamster wheel and finally do what you always wanted to do, yeah?
Nadjeschda:Because then you are free.
Nadjeschda:And you know, here's the newsflash, because I work with a lot of people who are very wealthy, right?
Nadjeschda:So my individual clients tend to be people who have more money than God as far as I, as I'm concerned.
Nadjeschda:Um, Are they free of worries about money?
Nadjeschda:Do they really feel free and secure?
Nadjeschda:They don't.
Nadjeschda:And a lot of them spend the, their daily lives doing things that they don't particularly enjoy, uh, a lot of them connected to managing their money.
Nadjeschda:Because that's the other thing, like once you have a lot of money, you actually need to invest a lot of time in managing your money and looking at your portfolios and, you know, whatnot and talking to your asset managers and all those things.
Nadjeschda:So it's, it's a bit absurd, right?
Nadjeschda:And, and what if we created a game where we started on the other end and we actually began, and that way I love the, the title of your endeavour, so much, the Happy Startup School.
Nadjeschda:What if we started there?
Nadjeschda:What, what if we said the game from here on forward is doing something that I truly love, yeah?
Nadjeschda:Where the, the, I don't know how exactly the saying in English goes, but where the, the path is, is the goal is, is that a?
Carlos:Yeah.
Nadjeschda:Yeah, yeah.
Nadjeschda:So you know that metaphor, instead of saying The goal is the goal, but to say that the process of doing this thing that I love, that I enjoy, that makes me happy every day, that is the game I'm going to play.
Nadjeschda:And if I at the same time do the inner work to uncover and unravel what I've split up out of my own sense of self, out of my own identity and project it onto money, if I reintegrate that, then I can often make a quite magical experience, which is I'm actually being taken care of.
Nadjeschda:Like life will carry me.
Nadjeschda:I might not become rich.
Nadjeschda:But then the interesting observation also is maybe you don't need to be rich then anymore because you're already enriched with the life that you live.
Nadjeschda:And, and you know, to give you an example with, with the life that I live today, my wife and I love to, to travel, right?
Nadjeschda:So over the summer we, uh, before Covid anyway, we often had six week, uh, trips where we went to the US or to New Zealand, or, you know, to some far away place from, from where we are.
Nadjeschda:And I can't, cannot afford to spend six weeks in a hotel, or at least the hotels that I could afford are not the hotels I wanna be in.
Nadjeschda:And the hotels that I would like to be in, I cannot afford for six weeks.
Nadjeschda:What we discovered is home exchanging.
Nadjeschda:So we trade our place with people across the planet, and I have felt that that has brought so much luxury into our lives.
Nadjeschda:So it is a slight mindset shift around what is luxury to mean, what, what do I really want out of that experience?
Nadjeschda:And it has opened all of these doors, right?
Nadjeschda:So if we play this other game, we can become very creative about what are the experiences that we really, truly want to have, and are there other ways of, of creating them for us than being filthy rich?
Nadjeschda:And for most of them, I would argue, yes, they are.
Nadjeschda:There are many
Carlos:ways.
Carlos:There's so much there.
Carlos:Uh, I want to, to pick up on.
Carlos:And I wanna start with something selfish because I wanna talk about my children.
Carlos:Um, we are having a conversation one time, and I, and I've poked the question to them.
Carlos:Would you rather have lots of money and no friends or lots of friends and no money?
Carlos:And so I was talking my son and daughter.
Nadjeschda:How old?
Carlos:Son is now 13.
Carlos:So at the time, he must have been about 12 or 11.
Carlos:My daughter is nine, so she's about seven or eight.
Carlos:And so my mo son said lots of money and no friends.
Carlos:I said, okay.
Carlos:And then my daughter said lots of friends but no money.
Carlos:And my son turned to my daughter and said, what are you talking about?
Carlos:But, you know, where would you live?
Carlos:And she said, well, I just go and stay at my friend's house.
Nadjeschda:You know?
Nadjeschda:And honestly, she's got a point there because that's another little, a little anecdote.
Nadjeschda:Um, recently I stayed at a house of a friend of mine who lives outside of Geneva and his is amazing house overlooking the valley.
Nadjeschda:It's, it's beautiful, right?
Nadjeschda:And then the cleaning ladies came who are from Poland, and my wife is Polish as well, so she could talk to them a bit.
Nadjeschda:And they said, we actually never met Alex, the owner, because he is always out working.
Nadjeschda:And she's like, and this is the same, this is the truth for all of these houses that we tend to, we usually don't know who lives here because they're never home.
Nadjeschda:But we are enjoying his place.
Nadjeschda:I mean, I'm, you know, I'm very, very appreciative of my friends who made money and let me stay in their places.
Nadjeschda:But, so your daughter has actually spot on.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:It's like, and I think it's that shift of like, Ashley to enjoy these things.
Carlos:We don't necessarily always need to have money.
Carlos:There's ways, and I think this is what you're talking to, this, we can be more creative about meeting our needs, which I'd like to go into a bit more given the context of the work that we do.
Carlos:The other thing, there's a point here around working with money and, and how we do that usefully or well given the system we are in.
Carlos:And then there's an aspect of the actual system and I just wanted to, I think it was a nod to what, what you were talking about in terms of what we doing to the planet, given the system or the game that we are playing.
Carlos:And so if there is this cycle of consumption or is helping us feel better, but what does that consumption mean?
Carlos:Not only in the terms of just the circulation of money.
Carlos:Cause on one hand there's something to be said about the circulation of money in order to, as, again, there's a systems thing that I don't wanna go into too much detail.
Carlos:But anyway, this consumption piece, that means that we are extracting
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:From our environment in order to make these things and not necessarily putting it back in a way that we can then pull out again.
Carlos:On one hand, if one, someone, one, someone could simply say, just let's get rid of money and just like live in a way where we don't need money, we can meet our needs.
Carlos:And then I'm also thinking like, can we still live with money?
Carlos:But just that money is still moved around, but without destroying our environment?
Nadjeschda:But here you mentioned something really vital, Carlos, because the problem that we have right now to a large degree is based on the fact that money is not being moved around anymore.
Nadjeschda:Money is hoarded, right?
Nadjeschda:So if we actually had a system in which money would be free to flow where it's needed in any moment of time, then I think, yeah, why not deal with money, right?
Nadjeschda:I mean, it's not a stupid invention.
Nadjeschda:We can do a lot of good things with money, but if money is hoarded and if money is kept in vaults and if money is frozen, um, we create the world that we have right now, right?
Nadjeschda:Where scarcity really, really is an issue.
Carlos:Good.
Carlos:All right.
Carlos:Cause I would like to get onto that in a bit in terms of this idea of, uh, and this mindset of scarcity and, and our ability to create new things and to step into new futures.
Carlos:Because I think for me it's kind of connected to this idea of uncertainty of the future and our trust in our ability to, to make things happen.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:You talked about the, this idea around, you know, we talked called the Happy Startup School.
Carlos:When you do something you love, then you know, enjoying the journey, you know.
Carlos:It's the experience of the doing rather than the attaining of the goal that, that will, you know, that's core to this.
Carlos:I think I'm curious, and this is a little bit of a tangent, because I've been listening to a guy called Rupert Spira, and he talks about the idea of the direct path to Happiness.
Carlos:Yes.
Carlos:And his point being that Happiness is something that we can claim anytime.
Carlos:It's the essence of us.
Carlos:Our ability to be happy is, is uh, is the ability to be purely present with ourselves.
Carlos:And what we're doing a lot of the time is thinking we're trying to achieve a job or get money or whatever, because we want to be happy.
Carlos:But actually the fact is that we are, we can be happy right now, and from that place we can then choose to do things/ because then it's not, I'm gonna do this in order to get something, there's something else motivating.
Carlos:I'm doing this for another purpose, but not to fix myself or make myself happy.
Carlos:So I'm, I'm one.
Carlos:I'm curious about your thoughts around this in terms of this bit of a more spiritual aspect to the money thing.
Nadjeschda:Hmm.
Carlos:It's like money's no longer something to make me feel better.
Carlos:There's, there's, you talk, you know, there's something about me I need to come to terms with that allows me to just.
Carlos:Accept or gain Happiness and then move from that space.
Carlos:I don't know.
Carlos:Does, does there any, does that make sense?
Nadjeschda:No, it, it does make sense.
Nadjeschda:You know, and, and sometimes I think humans really are peculiar species.
Nadjeschda:Because what you were just, uh, sharing in terms of, you know, it's our ability to be present with our ability to be fully here, connected to our body, um, that's where Happiness lies, now, that's an open secret that has been known by, you know, spiritual seekers for, I don't know, 3000 years.
Nadjeschda:But what it, what tends to happen is that the, um, that the promise that we were introduced through, through, um, the industrialization and then the rise of capitalism is so alluring that everybody who doesn't have money goes Yeah, right.
Nadjeschda:Uh, it's easy enough for you to say that.
Nadjeschda:Let me try that first, yeah, and then I will tell you if money made me happy, right?
Nadjeschda:So, so that's why we all play in the lottery.
Nadjeschda:We know it's crazy.
Nadjeschda:Like nobody wins the lottery, but we still do it.
Nadjeschda:That's why we vote for people like, like Trump, even though he does, you know, everything in his power to disempower that, the masses.
Nadjeschda:But the idea that he's selling is if you only try hard enough, you could be in my, in my, in my seat, right?
Nadjeschda:So that's the, that's the American dream, right?
Nadjeschda:And we'd rather sacrifice our Happiness in every single moment for this vague promise of that there is a place we could get to where everything is suddenly attainable, Happiness, richness, fame, you know, whatever it might be.
Nadjeschda:And that's where we sell our soul, right?
Nadjeschda:And I think the work that is needed is to get to a place where I really do the inner work.
Nadjeschda:Because I, I don't think we can attain true, grounded, embodied Happiness without doing that inner work piece.
Nadjeschda:And then if we happen to make money and, you know, that might well be part of your life's path, then it is, you can do things with money that bring you a deeper sense of joy.
Nadjeschda:And there's numerous studies around what makes people happy around money.
Nadjeschda:And most of them, uh, come up with stuff.
Nadjeschda:Uh, money makes you happy if you give it to somebody else, right?
Nadjeschda:If you do it consciously.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Nadjeschda:Again, otherwise it's just the script driving you out of your own shadow.
Nadjeschda:And that's, that's a different experience.
Nadjeschda:But if you, I, I give a lot of money away these days.
Nadjeschda:But I do it very consciously and I really know why I'm giving it away and to whom or to what initiative.
Nadjeschda:And it does bring me, uh, satisfaction, yeah?
Nadjeschda:There's something really deeply gratifying about knowing that I can shift small things with the money that I make.
Carlos:So, so just to underline that, cuz it's something that I, some I got a little bit confused about.
Carlos:It's like I could make lots of money and then I could give it away.
Carlos:But if I give it in a way in the sense of like, like you said with the washing machine, I feel guilty about it or I need to give it, or, or it's a way to absolve myself of responsibility by just giving it to someone to sort out, then that's not necessarily a helpful way to work.
Carlos:But then if I say, okay, I really would love to see this project happen, or I would really love to see this initiative continue, and I, I believe I'm in, it's in my power to serve that by giving you however much money.
Carlos:Then that's the more conscious way of giving away is that?
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Nadjeschda:And then I can also do it without becoming resentful, right?
Nadjeschda:Because that's the other thing about sort of the unconscious washing machine movement.
Nadjeschda:That's how, where I used to be is I would then give money away, but somehow it didn't create the feeling I was taking.
Nadjeschda:But then instead of looking for the answer of why that wasn't happening in me, I was then blaming the personal initiative I was giving the money to, that they weren't grateful enough or, you know, didn't do the right things with it or whatever.
Nadjeschda:But it didn't, it didn't create the experience that I was hungering for because again, that feeling is something that nobody else can produce for me.
Nadjeschda:It's not money, it's not an initiative.
Nadjeschda:It's not another person.
Nadjeschda:It's something that I need to find here.
Nadjeschda:But what I believe in terms of, because you are also saying, you know, then what else could be out there?
Nadjeschda:How else could we live, right?
Nadjeschda:And for example, one of the things that I'm really fascinated with is, um, they're more and more initiatives where people, for example, pool money and they create these money pools that then creates a reservoir of resource for somebody in this network of people to be used, um, if and when they need it for a, a specific project, whether it's a new website or, or a holiday, right?
Nadjeschda:But with the understanding that's at some point it will also flow back into the pool and then another person can, can be financed out of that pool, right?
Nadjeschda:So I think this whole idea of a sharing economy where we can create money flows between, you know me right now, I have more money than I actually need for my daily living right now.
Nadjeschda:So why does that need to lay in my bank account where it's basically molding away, right?
Nadjeschda:But it's also not enough for me to say, well, you know, I'll buy an apartment or something.
Nadjeschda:So what do I do with this money?
Nadjeschda:I'd happily put that into a pool and, and say, well, let, let it flow, right?
Nadjeschda:And let it do some good while I'm not using it right now.
Nadjeschda:So those are new models of using money that I think are already explored in different places in the world, quite successfully, and I, I think we need to be more creative with, with that.
Carlos:And I, I love, I love that creative approach to, to money.
Carlos:And it reminds me of initiative here in Brighton many years ago around car insurance where they were trying to disrupt the car insurance business through a different way of pooling, so the premiums weren't so high, but it, it, there was some, some kind of way of bringing the money together that.
Carlos:to, it seemed to be a cheaper way of doing car insurance, but at the same time, there was a pot there that, that could help whoever.
Nadjeschda:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:I think the, the question I have around this, and this is maybe one of the, a bit of this kind of broader journey of all of us is when there's a, the scarcity mentality and, and my head, the comparison mentality comes to mind.
Carlos:It's like on one hand, what if everyone has a car accident?
Carlos:In the case of the car insurance thing, oh, will there be enough?
Carlos:And the other thing is like, what if the same person's always pulling money out?
Carlos:And I'm not, and on one hand I don't need to and I never need to, but at the same time, someone else is benefiting from this.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:So I'm just wondering if you had any comment on that.
Carlos:It's like, what is it about us as human beings, or is it just me because I'm a bit like that?
Nadjeschda:No.
Nadjeschda:Well, the, the first point with the scarcity, you know what I find fascinating is we are in this situation right now in many countries, right?
Nadjeschda:Because when you look at what the pandemic created, I cannot tell you with, you know, I'm sitting there listening to where politicians suddenly find these pools of money where they give millions and billions into certain initiatives now, um, you know, rescuing small businesses or rescuing restaurants or res rescuing the, uh, you know, the, the club industry in Berlin.
Nadjeschda:And, you know, and I think it's right, but I'm like, where, where does that money come from?
Nadjeschda:Like, you know, the, the last thing that I heard is we don't have any money and we cannot make any more debt.
Nadjeschda:So what it taught me is all of that is relative, right?
Nadjeschda:Money is there and if it's not there, we need to be quite able to create more of it if we need it.
Nadjeschda:So that's, that's the first point, right?
Nadjeschda:That I think we need to be very conscious of this self-created illusionist one that we can manipulate at will.
Nadjeschda:And if we need more money, then apparently we can create it.
Nadjeschda:And then the second piece, what if somebody is always the beneficiary of, of a system like that?
Nadjeschda:it's not that I don't have that voice as well, but here are sort of two answers.
Nadjeschda:So firstly, I think that's why I'm so insistent on let's all do our inner work piece, right?
Nadjeschda:Because that will a, make me more free to not be so hypnotized by, you know, this is all fair at all times?
Nadjeschda:Because, you know, again, then we also get into this whole discussion about what is fair.
Nadjeschda:And that is, depending on your family background and your cultural background can be very different experiences.
Nadjeschda:Um, you know, and see you money, the, the program that I run, one of the questions we ask people is, how do you go to a pub with a group of people?
Nadjeschda:Like how is paying being handled, right?
Nadjeschda:And I live in Germany now.
Nadjeschda:In Germany, it is considered to be fair if everybody pays exactly what they consumed.
Nadjeschda:If you do that in the UK, you know, people will never go to the pub with you ever again because you're, you know, you Scrooge, it's a disgrace if you show up like that.
Nadjeschda:But at the same time, this idea of I'm paying a round is of course, depending on your position.
Nadjeschda:Also not fair because you know, I might be paying around, but I only ever drink water because I don't drink any alcoholic drinks.
Nadjeschda:So why should I be paying for everybody else's really, really expensive drinks?
Nadjeschda:Or I might be in a very horrible financial situation and really limit how much money I spend, but for me to pay a round, that's not fair, right?
Nadjeschda:But any rate, so to understand what we experience as fair and why, and realize that too isn't God-given, it's something that we created and we can change our relationship to that.
Nadjeschda:So maybe it's okay that one person always takes more out of a pot than somebody else, than me, because maybe that person actually has the bigger need at this moment in time.
Nadjeschda:But at the same time, I also noticed for myself that I'm much more comfortable with people taking from me if they are conscious about their own patterns and if they're conscious about why they do that, and if they're conscious about why they might have a monetary need in the moment.
Nadjeschda:So for me, I think the, the, the peaceful way of, for example, if you, you think of ideas like a global basic income, which I would strongly support, but I also think unless we do the deeper work, this would probably blow up in our face.
Nadjeschda:People don't have the maturity to handle a system like that.
Carlos:So one of the stories you told before is like if you're in the hamster wheel and basically you are going through pain in order to get money to then solve the pain.
Carlos:If I'm in the situation where I'm putting myself through pain and then I'm expected to give money away, that's gonna be a difficult thing to, to swallow.
Carlos:And then the other aspect of unconsciously taking the money away, whereas like, actually I have a scarcity mentality and I'm just gonna try and take some of this cuz it's available and I'm gonna keep it because it, that again, not helping with the system.
Carlos:And then flipping it, then through early in the conversation was like, if we did stuff that we loved doing, essentially we got joy from the work and it wasn't about the money, how e much easier, maybe we'd be able to just put money into the pot or allow others to take it?
Carlos:And then if I was in need of money and I didn't have this feeling of guilt around it and I, I was connected to people and I knew that they also, they cared for me and that's why the money is there, how I would then only take what I needed because I knew it'd always be there.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:And there would be something if I needed it, I didn't have to worry that it will run out.
Nadjeschda:Yeah, exactly.
Nadjeschda:And that for me would be a vision of a system that I would love to be a part of, right?
Nadjeschda:Is to, to realize that I am so embedded in relationships of people who actually care about me, that if and when I need money, it will flow towards me as much as I'm happy to give my money and let it flow towards somebody who, who needs that money at this moment in time.
Nadjeschda:And I think, of course, my, you know, my dream would be to have the system globally because, you know, that's also like the world is out of whack, right?
Nadjeschda:We have countries that are so indebted, which is something that we in the west created.
Nadjeschda:We, we basically enslaved.
Nadjeschda:Whole countries right in, in a system, in a game that they can never win if it continues to be like this.
Nadjeschda:So, but, but to start, let's do it in, in smaller clusters, right?
Nadjeschda:With people that we, we trust.
Nadjeschda:Let's have conversations about money.
Nadjeschda:So when people ask me, so how can I change my relationship to money?
Nadjeschda:Then I say, well, the, the, the very easiest first step is start talking about money.
Nadjeschda:Have a dinner party.
Nadjeschda:Invite your friends.
Nadjeschda:Tell them how much you you make, tell them your fears and your dreams about money.
Nadjeschda:Ask them to share that too.
Nadjeschda:Talk about your grandparents and their relationship to money, right?
Nadjeschda:That's, and it's such a taboo to speak about money.
Nadjeschda:So we need to, to drag that into the light and just talk about it.
Nadjeschda:And even just that creates a different connection to yourself and the people that you will be sharing this information with.
Carlos:And I think there is some, some shame.
Carlos:So much shame around that people have around money, whether it's having too much or not having enough.
Carlos:A, and there is this, you know, I'm, I'm thinking of, there's these two worlds, one that you described and I think Anya is talking about in terms of this world of love and generosity where money can flow in a, in a beneficial and healthy way.
Carlos:And then there's this state where we are kind of still in and, and trying to, I think some of us drag ourselves out of where essentially we wanna hoard it, we want to keep it, we wanna make sure that every dollar cent, penny we earn, all, all the effort we put into it, we get the right reward for for it.
Nadjeschda:Right.
Carlos:In inverted commas.
Carlos:And then there's middle transition period that somehow we gotta navigate to get to one place the other.
Carlos:I, I love this side.
Carlos:So on one hand it sounds, what I'm hearing is like, you know, let's start just being a bit more honest about money, which also, I feel finding safe spaces to do that, safe places because there's a fear maybe that someone's gonna use that information against you.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:I've had a conversation like this recently where there is a fear of judgment around the, what you say about your experience with money.
Nadjeschda:Well, because again, it's so tightly linked to identity, right?
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Nadjeschda:And what the fear is, is if I reveal that I'm not making a lot of money, or that I've always struggled making money, what I really fear is this will say something about my value as a person.
Carlos:Yeah.
Nadjeschda:And that's another thing we need to disconnect.
Nadjeschda:It doesn't say anything about my value as a person.
Nadjeschda:It may be saying something about my ability to sell my services or sell my products, but that's all.
Carlos:And also it says something about your history and your past and your president and, and your personality and your relationships.
Carlos:And it's, it's, for me, it's also a point of connection.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:In terms of like, ah, I understand a bit more about you.
Carlos:And so I think there's something there around how, yeah, finding these spaces where we can just least tune into our, like you say, the relationships and how those relationships with money have, have come from our relationships, full stop.
Carlos:But then as well, I think part of this where I'm getting to is for us trying to make this transition within this system that is a bit broken and, um, I wanted to talk a bit little bit to Alex and, and some of the people in our community where people are shifting, trying to do something new, trying to create a new business, a new endeavor where essentially we don't know if we're gonna make very much money yet, but if we have that fear, then we may never start.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts around starting new initiatives?
Carlos:And people, someone who's saying, oh my God, I, I need, if I don't have this much money in the bank, or if I don't have the money, To, you know, pay for all of these things that I can see that I'll need to pay for in the future.
Carlos:I, I, I won't start.
Nadjeschda:Hmm.
Nadjeschda:I mean, you know, obviously there is no one size fits all answer, right?
Nadjeschda:So that would be something very personal.
Nadjeschda:And, and I do have compassion and respect for people who have fears around money because I, I used to as well.
Nadjeschda:But you know, at some point it's, uh, I was having a conversation with Peter Koenig the other day and he said sometimes he, he has this image of we are hanging on the trapeze, right?
Nadjeschda:So we're swinging in this, in this room.
Nadjeschda:And the trapeze trick is that there is another trap we need, need to or want to get to.
Nadjeschda:But the only way to get to the other trapes is to let go of this one.
Nadjeschda:So there is an element of where you just have to jump, right?
Nadjeschda:And nobody can guarantee you that you will actually reach the, the other end.
Nadjeschda:But frankly, most people, also, most people that show up in, in, in and see you money, they, you know what I can only tell them is you're here, right?
Nadjeschda:So far life has taken care of you.
Nadjeschda:I mean, you might have struggled to make ends meet.
Nadjeschda:There might have been really tough times in your life, but at the end of the day, you are here.
Nadjeschda:And if we want to create together, create within the communities that we have within the Happy, Startup, School within CU money, within, you know, all of these wonderful people that we know in our field who are doing great work, then we need to realize we're hanging on this trap piece and at some point make the decision to let go and reach for the new thing.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:I, I like that, um, the idea of letting go, um, in, in the way I'm relating to, for me is like letting go of some of these stories that are already painting a, a bleak future that aren't necessarily true.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:And so, I'm not able to let go of those stories because I haven't really connected to myself yet.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:And there's the unconscious part.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:And I just wanna talk to Anya's thing around a lack of connection.
Carlos:I think there's a lack of connection to ourselves.
Nadjeschda:Absolutely.
Carlos:Which then means a lack of connection to other people, which then removes any kind of safety net.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:When we let go.
Nadjeschda:Yeah, absolutely.
Nadjeschda:So, yes, you know, the letting go part, I think, you know, again, do it consciously and make sure that you have the things in place that, that help you to, to, to take this jump, to let go.
Nadjeschda:And one of the most encouraging, nourishing things are relationships, right?
Nadjeschda:So making sure that you have a community of support around you, which is what you are offering, which is what we do.
Nadjeschda:Don't, don't do it alone.
Nadjeschda:Like, you know, this, this can be really scary if you try to pull this off by yourself.
Carlos:And that's why I'm really curious about the deeper part of this.
Carlos:Cuz my, uh, my understanding of being in community and being in connection with others generally, and it is maybe more difficult for some people, but without this ability to have self empathy and, and, and, and, you know, really gonna connect with all the things in yourself, it's harder to make vulnerable connections with others.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:And so there's this kind of two-way process of like, Having that support network.
Carlos:But in order to have that support network, I need to be supporting myself in a sense, which I think is about the stories that we can tell.
Carlos:So there's this like a beneficial, by talking about money, by understanding other people's stories about money, I stand my, I understand my own stories about money, and then I feel more connected to these people, and then I feel a bit more released.
Nadjeschda:Yeah,
Carlos:Or able to let go and take a leap into,
Nadjeschda:yeah,
Carlos:a leap of faith and something into a new endeavor.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Nadjeschda:And, and also, you know, I think what is not to be underestimated, the, the entrancement that we are in of, uh, the capitalistic system as we know it today is very, very strong, right?
Nadjeschda:So I get pulled back into the hamster wheel too.
Nadjeschda:And then I know that I'm doing this right and running after the golden carrot, and then I go, oh, well wait a minute, you know that it's actually open to one side.
Nadjeschda:I can step out of this.
Nadjeschda:I don't have to play this game.
Nadjeschda:And then they sometimes get sucked back in.
Nadjeschda:And, and that's fine.
Nadjeschda:So again, the community is also there for me to be reminded of what pieces of inner work are still left to do so that I build the inner resilience that I need to withdraw from this old system, because it's nearly like an addiction.
Nadjeschda:It's like we are all a heroin addict, right?
Nadjeschda:And we need to go into withdrawal and to do withdrawal, we need to understand why we got hooked onto the substance in the first place.
Nadjeschda:And then we need a support network who believes in us in moments when we don't, and who believe in a, in a vision of a different future and moments when we don't.
Carlos:I love that.
Carlos:And I love the, the compassion, self-compassion aspect of this.
Carlos:You know, we are only humans.
Carlos:We're still trying to move forward clumsily at the moment.
Carlos:But at least we have an intention to move somewhere better.
Nadjeschda:But you know, the, the, again, the same thing applies here as with, with a Startup or a business that you're founding.
Nadjeschda:Fall in love with the work, right?
Nadjeschda:Instead of thinking, oh my God, I have so much more in the work to do.
Nadjeschda:This is so horrible to actually begin to enjoy it/ because it is not just painful, it is also enjoyable.
Nadjeschda:And it will be a process of, you know, you have these great insights and you think, oh, I've got it all figured out.
Nadjeschda:It's so clear and right, and then you plummet right back down.
Nadjeschda:You're like, I understand nothing.
Nadjeschda:This is horrible.
Nadjeschda:I've never felt worse in my life.
Nadjeschda:And, you know, to enjoy that journey too.
Nadjeschda:And if you share it with others, it, it becomes, you know, the, the path is the goal.
Nadjeschda:Like it becomes an, an enjoyable experience that makes us feel vulnerable, but also deeply connected to self and, and those people around us.
Nadjeschda:And I think it's worth it.
Carlos:Definitely.
Carlos:No, I'm, I'm definitely agree with you in that and accepting those highs and lows and all of them pointing, hopefully nudging us in the right direction or useful direction.
Nadjeschda:Yeah.
Carlos:And, and yeah, this is a spiritual journey it sounds like.
Carlos:And, and I'm all up for a spiritual journey.
Carlos:Enjoy those things.
Carlos:Wow.
Carlos:Well, thank you very much, Nadje.
Nadjeschda:Thank you.
Carlos:If people want to know more about you, where would you like to point them?
Carlos:So if they wanna find out more about what you do?
Nadjeschda:On LinkedIn, which is one place.
Nadjeschda:Then if they want to know more about money, we have groups running usually twice a year.
Nadjeschda:There will be another one most likely starting in the fall.
Nadjeschda:So, you know, stay in connection and whether you, um, do this through the Happy, Startup, School or us, or you know, because that's another thing.
Nadjeschda:I think all of these.
Nadjeschda:Different schools and initiatives, um, we also need to have that mindset of collaborating and letting our resources and connections and ideas flow back.
Nadjeschda:There's enough of all of it.
Nadjeschda:Like we, we need to bond together, right?
Nadjeschda:That's what, what is needed in these times.
