Street-level altruism

Carlos: 00:01:23

What we usually start with is, is for people who, who are just generally Happy Startup fans, and they just like to tune in on the Friday Fireside, could you maybe start Joshua by just sharing a bit about the work you're doing at the moment, and maybe a, just a short potted history of how you got to where you are now.

Joshua: 00:01:41

Yeah, of course.

Joshua: 00:01:42

Well, I'm in Turkey at the moment.

Joshua: 00:01:44

But you know, I am based out of the UK and I, and I, I, I have been for, for a long time specifically London for several years.

Joshua: 00:01:52

And yeah, like I think we can all relate to, to seeing this problem, I think confront us all on a regular basis, whatever big city you live in, like any metropolitan area, seeing people sleeping on the street and people experiencing homelessness.

Joshua: 00:02:08

For me, like this is, this is something that's become really normalized in society.

Joshua: 00:02:12

It's become so normal that we, we feel that in cities that are in incredibly affluent and have so much provides, what I feel is, is such a um, a minimal level of care for the most vulnerable.

Joshua: 00:02:26

The reason I say that is because, you know, no matter what I thought about this before I started this journey cuz I've, I guess I've started doing the work I, I was doing about seven years ago now.

Joshua: 00:02:34

Wherever you sit or whatever the reasons why you might think someone might end up in this position.

Joshua: 00:02:38

I don't wanna live in a place where people are left behind and where they are at the moment through isolation through com, complete loneliness sometimes through actual loss of life in a lot of cases, like the amount of people who actually we lose citizens of whatever country we live in who don't make it through the year, who die on the street.

Joshua: 00:02:55

So I was always walking around with this kind of sense of, this doesn't feel right.

Joshua: 00:03:00

There's something in me that doesn't, this doesn't feel okay.

Joshua: 00:03:02

And I think a lot of people feel that, but we're not quite sure as individuals how to best approach a situation when people's lives can often look very different than our own.

Joshua: 00:03:11

Also, you know, what can you really do as one person?

Joshua: 00:03:15

This overwhelming feeling of like, how can I even make a difference when this problem seems so big and you know, I don't have much time, you know, you know, what, what can I do?

Joshua: 00:03:24

So there's those sort of almost feelings of fatigue sometimes when a problem feels too big.

Joshua: 00:03:30

And for me that was my reality for a long time.

Joshua: 00:03:31

But that changed one day based on my work that I was doing and I was getting paid for at the time.

Joshua: 00:03:37

I was working in a salon as a hairdresser doing um, men's hair and women's hair and all the rest of it.

Joshua: 00:03:42

And, you know, I really enjoyed my job.

Joshua: 00:03:44

You have to, as a hairdresser, it's something that's so up close and personal with the people that you're spending time with.

Joshua: 00:03:49

But when I started hairdressing, I realized, of course my role was more than just hopefully this transaction of money.

Joshua: 00:03:55

Someone's coming in to pay a service.

Joshua: 00:03:57

Oftentimes people talk to you about their lives, what's happening with them, the different situations they might be going through that might get a little bit deeper sometimes.

Joshua: 00:04:05

And, and I was there to hold space for that, you know, and um.

Joshua: 00:04:08

And that transitioned.

Joshua: 00:04:10

In a way that I wouldn't have thought it could have into finding kind of this, at least my personal antidote, to try and help people in this situation who were living on the street.

Joshua: 00:04:18

So I um, I was on the way to someone's house one day with my things to cut their hair and do a home visit.

Joshua: 00:04:23

And I saw somebody who was eating on the street at the time and what was buying a cup of tea and the usual things I think we all know how to do, which are really important in that moment.

Joshua: 00:04:31

You know, maybe buy someone some food, help 'em out, drop a few coins if you have them.

Joshua: 00:04:35

That turned into remembering I had my scissors and everything I needed to cut someone's hair and my backpack and, and I asked them for a haircut.

Joshua: 00:04:42

And, you know, that I guess from that moment, you know, was sort of the beginning of, of, of what I'm, I'm doing now.

Joshua: 00:04:50

It changed my trajectory in, in a big way.

Joshua: 00:04:52

And it was a real recognition.

Joshua: 00:04:53

I think.

Joshua: 00:04:54

Of course, I didn't go home on the bus that day feeling, or that evening feeling like, oh wow, a haircut's gonna completely change someone's world.

Joshua: 00:05:02

But a couple of things happened, which was like, It really gave this person something to feel good about.

Joshua: 00:05:08

You know, it really gave this person a smile.

Joshua: 00:05:10

It really gave this person like this feel good moment for them, like some me time, which I think is so needed when you are feeling, you know, pretty, like, you might not have all that much hope right now.

Joshua: 00:05:22

So there was a piece with the haircut itself.

Joshua: 00:05:25

I saw the way that kind of provided something tangibly, but it was actually, I think, deeper than that personally that's kept me doing this, which was a bit of a shift in kind of perspective of focusing and how I, you know, how I choose to focus on, on the things around us rather than feeling overwhelmed and feeling helpless.

Joshua: 00:05:45

I, you know, I can actually just concentrate on the things I can do and I started going out and, and doing this more, more often.

Carlos: 00:05:50

Do you remember the name of that person and, and what the story they had and, and how that felt for you as well?

Carlos: 00:05:56

Cause I, that must have been the first a bit scary to just, I don't know, what was that experience like personally?

Joshua: 00:06:03

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:06:03

You know, it was, yeah, of course.

Joshua: 00:06:05

I like, I, I remember it, you know, really well.

Joshua: 00:06:07

And, and this was someone who was like a similar age to me.

Joshua: 00:06:10

His name was Derek.

Joshua: 00:06:11

And, and like, you know, it was, it was something that I, oftentimes we, we, when we think about speaking to another person, we're so self-aware, you know, we're so, we're so self-aware as far as how, how, you know, we are with the person in front of us, even when we're speaking.

Joshua: 00:06:27

I dunno whether everybody listening can think about this, how often we're talking to the person in front of us and we're so aware of what it is we're saying and how we're coming across.

Joshua: 00:06:36

And some of that is, of course, linked to our previous experience, our past experience.

Joshua: 00:06:41

And, and, and it, it, it, for me, it happens still to this day, but I'm so much more aware of it now, uh, when I'm worried about how something's gonna be received.

Joshua: 00:06:52

And what happened in this first moment was for some reason that day, I didn't think that internal dialogue didn't really get in the way.

Joshua: 00:06:58

I just thought, Ah, there's this idea, maybe I could cut your hair.

Joshua: 00:07:02

And I asked this person straight away and they said yes.

Joshua: 00:07:04

But if I did probably spend that 10 seconds more thinking, oh, should I ask?

Joshua: 00:07:08

No, maybe this isn't really an important, like, what?

Joshua: 00:07:11

He's not gonna want his haircut.

Joshua: 00:07:12

That's, you know, he, he needs a roof over his head.

Joshua: 00:07:15

He hasn't got any money in his pocket.

Joshua: 00:07:17

Of course, this is not like top priority on someone's needs right now.

Joshua: 00:07:20

But you know, in a more articulate way, I think I can probably explore that.

Joshua: 00:07:24

But maybe it's not for right now is, is maybe that dialogue usually gets in our own way.

Joshua: 00:07:29

And, and for some reason that didn't happen for me that day.

Joshua: 00:07:31

And I'm really glad because it kind of, it got me out of my comfort zone.

Joshua: 00:07:35

And yes, this is somebody who, who from the outside I can be thinking, oh wow, their, their life's completely different.

Joshua: 00:07:41

Of course, I can't deny the privilege I have or not recognize that.

Joshua: 00:07:46

Like, I don't wanna diminish that.

Joshua: 00:07:47

The fact that I had somewhere to go and sleep that night, that makes my world completely different to theirs in all kinds of ways.

Joshua: 00:07:53

But there's a hell of a lot of places we could meet as two human beings as well.

Joshua: 00:07:57

And I, and I, you know, we, we still feel the same things and we still respond to the same things.

Joshua: 00:08:04

And we still have these basic needs as people, right?

Joshua: 00:08:07

To be seen and to be heard and to feel a sense of belonging and um.

Joshua: 00:08:12

You know, that that's, that's something that I've really learned on this journey.

Joshua: 00:08:16

I, I feel, is that quite quickly with these experiences, after that first one, I'd go out and I'd do this more and I'd, this first guy, he introduced me to some of his friends, and then I'd go out on another day off.

Joshua: 00:08:26

And before you know it, I was getting to know lots of people from all different walks of life around London.

Joshua: 00:08:30

And it was like, these became my new pals, these people I, I, I was meeting on a regular basis.

Joshua: 00:08:35

And all of that stuff, that surface stuff that would stop me from interacting with this in this way.

Joshua: 00:08:41

It, it all dissolved quite quickly, you know.

Joshua: 00:08:43

Because yes, like of course you've got people in like, sometimes some very difficult circumstances who might be suffering a lot, who might have experienced, like, or be experiencing some complex, you know, had some complex trauma in their life or maybe like some reoccurring day to day kind of real difficult situations.

Joshua: 00:09:01

And what comes with that sometimes is what can be the ugly stuff, you know what I mean?

Joshua: 00:09:06

From the outside, you know, people with quite severe substance misuse and addiction.

Joshua: 00:09:11

Sometimes people with difficult, you know, kind of even kind of interacting the way some of us might be used to because there's been a lack of trust for a long time with a lot of people around them.

Joshua: 00:09:21

There's been people who might not have had like a support network that I've come, thankfully to be used to in my own life.

Joshua: 00:09:29

So there's all these like details and all this texture to this stuff.

Joshua: 00:09:33

But really it was like through experiences and going out and doing this, I realized that like there's so much in our lives that we try and guess, we try and have these ideas of how things should be before we get to them.

Joshua: 00:09:46

And that can apply to like lots of different situations.

Joshua: 00:09:48

But when we're talking about human interaction, I started trying to remove.

Joshua: 00:09:52

My practice was whenever I went out and did this just to remove this idea of how things should be.

Joshua: 00:09:59

And what that tended to do was create no expectations and go with the flow and be present in the moment.

Joshua: 00:10:06

And at the end of that day, that might have involved a couple of hairy moments here and there where there were people who might have been, you know, doing things like, you know, there, there's it.

Joshua: 00:10:16

You could, I could be right in the thick of it sometimes, you know.

Joshua: 00:10:18

I used to cut hair down in Charing Cross Station in London off the Strand.

Joshua: 00:10:23

I'm, I'm sure lots of people listen, might have been through that station before, but there's all these like corridors underneath this, like web of corridors underneath that sort of run down different alleyways.

Joshua: 00:10:32

And some of 'em are pretty derelict and not really used.

Joshua: 00:10:35

And I don't know, you know, it was this epidemic in, in, in England about 2015, 16 when spice really like ripped its way, this synthetic cannabis ripped its way through like a lot of the poorest communities and the most vulnerable people and like, It was pretty hectic at times down there, you know, but then I was like, I, you know, I didn't get hurt.

Joshua: 00:10:56

I never got pushed around.

Joshua: 00:10:57

I never got, it's just getting better at dealing with the surface.

Joshua: 00:11:01

Because I, the point I'm in a very long-winded way getting to is that all the layers that proceed this kind of moment, like I find through the haircut, albeit this very simple thing, when I spend an hour with somebody, you kind of get through them in some way.

Joshua: 00:11:16

And, and there's just this human being sat there who like probably needs a hug.

Joshua: 00:11:22

And that's not to be patronizing, it's just to reflect upon my own life.

Joshua: 00:11:26

You know what I mean?

Joshua: 00:11:26

Anger can come, sadness can come, frustration can come.

Joshua: 00:11:30

It can come in all kinds of different ugly kind of ways where it's sort of, it, you know, these emotions that come up.

Joshua: 00:11:36

But like underneath, usually there's a person who's just like, I'm fed up, you know, I'm fed up with whatever it is in my life that's, that's not going right for me right now.

Joshua: 00:11:43

And, and yeah, through this journey I try and.

Joshua: 00:11:47

I try and kind of remain focused on the fact that there is a person there and, and, and that, yeah, sometimes that's a really easy interaction.

Joshua: 00:11:54

Sometimes it's not, but that's kind of the level I wanna be able to try and communicate on.

Carlos: 00:11:59

You talked about just giving someone a hug and Anya mentioned in the chat that just that physical close contact that someone may not have had or feel like no one wants to golfer and give them that, what a powerful thing that would some potentially be for, for someone who doesn't get that or feels they, no one wants to give it to them.

Carlos: 00:12:20

And, and this, what I heard and, and Anya's given, hopefully giving you some useful words, the difference between self-conscious and self-aware.

Carlos: 00:12:30

There's that self-consciousness aspect of like, oh, what's this person gonna think about what I'm saying?

Carlos: 00:12:34

And, you know, am I saying the right thing and how's it gonna end?

Carlos: 00:12:36

Versus the self-aware of like, I'm a bit scared at the moment.

Carlos: 00:12:40

This is, I love it.

Carlos: 00:12:42

I love the puns.

Carlos: 00:12:43

Hairy bit hairy or hairy moments and being in the thick of it.

Carlos: 00:12:46

We're just about to give a haircut this person, we have made per maybe perceptions about, and, and this is the, the self-awareness that we have, these biases and maybe these prejudices that we, in your case it sound like you just push through.

Carlos: 00:12:58

There's a gut feeling and this difference between a gut feeling and overthinking the situation.

Joshua: 00:13:03

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:13:04

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:13:04

That's, and that's really important.

Joshua: 00:13:06

And I, I do, yeah.

Joshua: 00:13:07

And I'm reading some of these comments and.

Joshua: 00:13:09

It's so, it's so nice to sort of, yeah, to sort of, you know, be speaking to people here and hearing your thoughts and on, on this too, because really this is a, a universal thing.

Joshua: 00:13:18

Obviously what I do is specific to like a haircut and the street level that we're talking about here, but like, really this is just a human thing, you know?

Joshua: 00:13:25

This is just an equivalent to everyone has their own version of this, you know, the nerves that come up with, I dunno, it might be like there's an whatever is out of your comfort zone that's gonna look different for everyone.

Joshua: 00:13:38

Like, I've started to find this stuff, like my comfort zone now.

Joshua: 00:13:41

So now out of my comfort zone looks like a little bit different.

Joshua: 00:13:44

If someone invites me to like a gala dinner, I'm, I, I'm for two weeks before I'm thinking about the ways I can get out of it and feel sick.

Joshua: 00:13:53

Because if anyone says there's a dress code, then I freak out.

Joshua: 00:13:56

I'm like, so that's my version of that is like, I can't handle it, you know?

Joshua: 00:14:00

So, we've all got these, these anxieties and these things that come up.

Joshua: 00:14:03

But this one in particular, I just feel that, yeah, the touch is important.

Joshua: 00:14:07

And yeah, the touch and that, that kind of what could be a long time that some people might be starved of, of this, this, this kind of really basic human interaction.

Joshua: 00:14:16

And I know that some people could be listening to this, maybe not in this room, but obviously I give talks about this stuff often and be thinking, well this is great when there's this like storytelling aspect to what I do.

Joshua: 00:14:26

Cuz you know, I'll talk more about that.

Joshua: 00:14:28

But as far as the action itself of cutting hair, like, alright, well you know, a lot of times people's minds then flick to, oh that's nice because someone can get a new haircut and maybe they're all clean and they can get a suit and then they can go and get a new job.

Joshua: 00:14:42

And that's fair enough because that's one way of thinking about it.

Joshua: 00:14:45

And it's quite, you know, I don't wanna call it linear and like a kind of, you know, it's not, it's not a bad, that's not a bad thing thinking about it that way.

Joshua: 00:14:53

But for me, I actually think it's something kind of quite deep in the sense of if someone takes the time to come and be with you and intimately spend time in like a non-romantic way, like in a kind of way that is just a brotherly or sisterly love for a stranger and someone who you didn't know five minutes before, like I just, I just feel that, you know, if you are really in like a quite a difficult place mentally, I see, I see the difference that it makes to people.

Joshua: 00:15:26

And that's not because of me as Josh, that's not like me saying, oh wow, I'm going out to be the safest people.

Joshua: 00:15:31

Like, no way.

Joshua: 00:15:32

Like I, I, I talk about this stuff because I know these are universal truths, and I try and remove myself from like, the part of me that's scared, talk about this, like, I'm this hero in this story.

Joshua: 00:15:43

No, but I'm happy to be a protagonist with something to be able to, to be a conduit for like a message.

Joshua: 00:15:48

Cause it's a message that comes up in my own life a lot, you know, like.

Joshua: 00:15:52

You know, when I'm having a really bad day and someone takes a bit of time for me, it's just like, it, it gives me almost like a, another vantage point of my own life.

Joshua: 00:16:01

Like if I'm having one of those days or weeks where like you are having a bad day after a bad day, and it can turn into a bit of a perpetual kind of thing where it's hard sometimes to, to see the wood for the trees.

Joshua: 00:16:13

And, and I think that with the haircut, simple as it is that touch, that human interaction, that closeness with a person Yeah, might be a bit cagey at first.

Joshua: 00:16:21

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:16:22

They might be thinking what's to catch?

Joshua: 00:16:23

And you know, afterwards when you've left and there's no money exchanged and it just is what it is.

Joshua: 00:16:27

Like you can see it's, it's meant something to a person that they're like, oh yeah, I'm, I'm worthy of that because we're all our own worst en enemy in that respect.

Joshua: 00:16:35

Like, I saw something the other day, I've forgotten this video clip and it's about speaking to yourself, you know, you speak to yourself so un unkindly most of the time.

Joshua: 00:16:44

Like, I think about some of the ways I've spoken to myself before when I've had certain issues, and if I was to speak that way to friends, I wouldn't have any friends left, you know?

Joshua: 00:16:54

And, and I think that that's yeah, that's something that sort of plays out in this haircut when I go out and do this.

Joshua: 00:17:00

Doesn't matter what country or what, what city, doesn't matter how difficult a situation might be.

Joshua: 00:17:06

If I do start the process of cutting hair, and that doesn't always happen.

Joshua: 00:17:08

It might just be a chat and someone doesn't want a haircut.

Joshua: 00:17:10

But if I do, usually something does happen quiet or maybe a bit louder, or maybe it's a bit more subtle in some way.

Joshua: 00:17:17

But it's just this thing where at least someone knows there's someone who cares about them.

Joshua: 00:17:22

There's someone who, who, who, who's, who's seen them that day and, and who's aware of their existence and the fact that they're important enough to, to be given your time.

Carlos: 00:17:32

I remember you.

Carlos: 00:17:33

I'm listening to you talk, uh, on a previous interview or a conversation, you talked about this idea of having someone in your life that would give you unconditional love.

Carlos: 00:17:43

And how, when you don't have that or you've never had that, what that could mean for your own sense of safety or I don't know, what do you remember saying that and how that played out or what that meant to you in terms of these interactions that you were having?

Joshua: 00:17:59

Well, you know, the thing that I run into a lot, and I think that's, it's, you know, it's hard to unpick sometimes is this sort of preserving or undeserving or worthy or not worthy.

Joshua: 00:18:10

And I think that I'm trying to when I can like, think about, you know, it's, it is you, you've gotta draw the line somewhere.

Joshua: 00:18:19

Like, look, I, I know that especially working with addiction a lot, like the hardest thing is when like, someone's kept on loving someone for so long, but they're not responding to that for whatever reason, so they've had to let go of them because it hurts too much.

Joshua: 00:18:37

And like, you wouldn't deny anybody that, cuz you can't, there has to be a line somewhere that is drawn, but that's gonna look different with each person.

Joshua: 00:18:45

But I think I try and talk about that as far as like right now we'll live in a time where society's line, like, don't let that be your line.

Joshua: 00:18:53

Like, what that kind of looks like for me, for a long time I was thinking about this stuff.

Joshua: 00:18:57

You know, I've always considered myself as like a liberal person who want to understand people wanting to support people, but I think I probably did have a certain opinion about homelessness and what that looks like, and maybe some of the choices that people might have made and all the things that perpetuate that, or maybe the lack of effort to like access the services that exist.

Joshua: 00:19:13

But when you get beneath his stuff, like, the judgment day-to-day or the kind of like the ways that people wash their hand of a person right now, the way that looks like broadly speaking is just like, it's so harsh.

Joshua: 00:19:28

It does so little to like, to, to recognize the human condition and like the pain that we all go through, and like how detrimental and psychological like effects that can have when, when certain things happen in your life.

Joshua: 00:19:40

It's just so, it's, it's so far out, just, just so stuck in the past.

Joshua: 00:19:47

It's so archaic to me.

Joshua: 00:19:48

You know, with all the conversations that happening around mental health now in tech spaces in.

Joshua: 00:19:54

Business spaces in corporate spaces, like, people talking about it on the tele, it's it can be this thing to talk about, but it's like, well when you take, you know, the, the kind of people I see on a regular basis and people who are living on the street, it's like, well, let's start there.

Joshua: 00:20:09

Like, let's start at that point and, and look at it and think about, even if there are services you can access, and even if there are, what help looks like is, is something that unfortunately is, is, is far, far from like what I think a standard that should be provided.

Joshua: 00:20:24

But um, you know, even if it did, even if this, there was this society's utopia where this was as a perfect hand up, it would have to include the holistic conversation.

Joshua: 00:20:33

It would have to include like, the side of this.

Joshua: 00:20:36

I think when I go out and I do this, I experience a lot, which is just like hearing about what's happened in someone's life and hearing about like how difficult it can be sometimes when you have a lot of guilt, a lot of shame, maybe a lot of trauma about something to break your own cycle, this stuff, and to like feel like you're worthy in some way.

Joshua: 00:20:56

So what I was saying about deserving and undeserving, it's just that of course I understand if somebody is like, look, you are working, you're working hard.

Joshua: 00:21:04

You might be feeding, you know, your fam, you know, putting food on the table, like caring for you and your family.

Joshua: 00:21:10

You might not have much time.

Joshua: 00:21:12

You might see somebody who's, who's shooting up on the street and think like, why should I help this person?

Joshua: 00:21:17

Like, why should I, why should I?

Joshua: 00:21:18

I'm, I'm, I'm looking after me and my own, I'm trying my best and I've got struggles.

Joshua: 00:21:21

So like, and, and that's, that's fine based on your time, but you don't have to help 'em using your time, but for me, a lot of this stuff and talking about and telling people's stories, really, it's more just about, well, just approach it neutrally though, approach it without any.

Joshua: 00:21:35

Base, everything on your own experience.

Joshua: 00:21:36

Like just because the judgment that's piled onto people, it's, it's just, it, it only carries as this, this weight for a lot of the people that I would see.

Joshua: 00:21:46

And and I just don't want my empathy to stop at a certain point, say like drugs or bad choices or whatever it may be.

Joshua: 00:21:54

It's like you, if you go back in someone's story and you press rewind on their life, there's, there's, there's, I just think we're a product of our environment and I don't think anyone from me anywhere could put my hands up and say that, like, I am not above any of those things.

Joshua: 00:22:07

I've just, I have a different perspective.

Joshua: 00:22:10

Well, you know, I'm, I'm in, I'm sat where I am now because of all the things that have got me here in my environment.

Joshua: 00:22:16

Of course, I try hard and I put a lot of effort in, but I'm not above those things.

Joshua: 00:22:19

You know what I mean?

Carlos: 00:22:21

Well, there's a, there's a massive tangent that I'm resisting going down with this idea, I've been talking a lot about free will and our ability to, to essentially make very autonomous choices.

Carlos: 00:22:33

And why I'm going down that route is that we, we get dealt certain cards in life and some of us, they've been quite beneficial.

Carlos: 00:22:42

And for others they've constrained them down a certain path.

Carlos: 00:22:46

And to a certain level, they, it might not have been possible to make any other choices.

Carlos: 00:22:50

And not even, it's like they even thought they had a choice.

Carlos: 00:22:53

The, the environment they were brought up in, the circumstances they were in meant the only way they could cope was to do a certain, whether it was to take drugs and where that led.

Carlos: 00:23:03

And so to then have a judgment and say, well, you could have done something different.

Carlos: 00:23:07

It's like, would you, could you.

Carlos: 00:23:10

In the same circumstances, do you believe that you have that strength of will and choice?

Carlos: 00:23:15

And then when you're talking about unconditional love, there's that, there is that aspect of like, okay, you can't make yourself a martyr to someone who's never going to change or there's the really, it's gonna be harder.

Carlos: 00:23:24

And, and basically there's a level of what I'm hearing is a sense of having very clear boundaries, you know, and, and they're very, you know, you can't be unaware or so, so self unaware to keep yourself in the situation that is damaging, that you're never gonna change because you just want to love this person.

Carlos: 00:23:42

But the other aspect to this that I'm hearing with the work that you're doing, and hopefully go into a bit more detail about how that's evolved, is the non-transactional nature that you come to an, an engagement with someone or a relationship with someone, where it isn't about what am I gonna get back from this person?

Carlos: 00:24:00

It's like, I just want to give.

Carlos: 00:24:03

And that's it.

Carlos: 00:24:04

And that's why I'm thinking about the unconditional.

Carlos: 00:24:06

There is no condition to my having sat down with you and having a chat or to give a haircut or to whatever, any of us on the call today could do with someone that we never knew or feel is having a hard time.

Carlos: 00:24:18

And that for me is the more powerful level of this.

Carlos: 00:24:22

Cause that's the story I think that you're trying to tackle is like our, in this hyper commercial world obsession with transactional relationships as opposed to what can we give.

Carlos: 00:24:35

As from a place of abundance.

Carlos: 00:24:37

Is that fair?

Joshua: 00:24:38

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:24:38

As a way.

Joshua: 00:24:39

Yeah, that's, uh, yeah.

Joshua: 00:24:40

Yes.

Joshua: 00:24:41

It's I think it's something that I think we're, we're in this time, I dunno about you guys and people listen to this where it seems so difficult sometimes that like two things can exist at once, whether that be the comment threads on social media, the division we see politically, the way that things are broadcast to us with one side or the other.

Joshua: 00:25:02

And, and I feel that on what you're saying Carlos, it's like, what came up for me there was you know, you can have boundaries whilst loving unconditionally.

Joshua: 00:25:12

And what I mean by that is you can still, like, wake up with an ethos of feeling like, yeah, you know what I'm gonna.

Joshua: 00:25:19

Until I get to that boundary, until I get to that point, I am gonna give my love and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna think about anything else apart from that.

Joshua: 00:25:27

And I'm gonna go out and do this thing.

Joshua: 00:25:29

Cause it feels right.

Joshua: 00:25:30

And that is the reason.

Joshua: 00:25:31

But if you are in tune with like your internal, like radar and how you feel, you, you don't do anything that also takes from you to a point where you know that's gonna be unhealthy for you, you know?

Laurence: 00:25:40

Mm-hmm.

Joshua: 00:25:41

And it's the same as say vulnerability, but still having your guard up in certain situations.

Joshua: 00:25:47

Like, of course I have to have these two things happening at once at all times.

Joshua: 00:25:51

Like I, I go out there and spend time with people in a loving way getting to know them and have to really be quite vulnerable myself to be able to connect with people on a certain level.

Joshua: 00:26:02

But sometimes I might be underneath some highway somewhere in like a sort of mini tent encampment place with quite a lot of like raucous stuff going on around me and people who are in quite desperate situations.

Joshua: 00:26:16

And I say that not to judge, I imagine say that just about survival and it is what it is, you know what I mean?

Joshua: 00:26:20

Like, you know, if, if I've got my fingers around me or whatever that may be, you know, there's an awareness piece there.

Joshua: 00:26:26

So like I feel like I, I know what it's like to be able to practice those two things and, you know, he no is healthy of course.

Joshua: 00:26:33

Like no is a very healthy thing.

Joshua: 00:26:35

But you know, I think sometimes we can get a bit hung up on, on it being one thing or the other.

Joshua: 00:26:40

And for me, like everything can exist at once, but it's like your, your choice to go out and do this stuff, it's like unconditional in some ways.

Joshua: 00:26:50

But then there's another part of this conversation, which is why it's beneficial for you.

Joshua: 00:26:54

Because the reason I continue to do this work is not to feel like, you know, this is not for some karmic point tally that I am trying to like accumulate in the hope that, you know, to balance out any other aspect of my life in some way.

Joshua: 00:27:10

This is something I know gives me what I'm supposed to be here for, which is when I can like being present as we've, we've, we've heard from in the comments and, and, and being here in this moment.

Joshua: 00:27:24

And sometimes that will look like my family and friends sometimes hope, you know, that will look like people outside there and strangers and, and sometimes that'll look like how I wanna spend my time in other ways in my life.

Joshua: 00:27:35

But of course, I get something from that.

Joshua: 00:27:37

Of course, it's, it's, it's not transactional, transactional in, in money, but it, it is a really important thing to, to, to, to touch on because it doesn't matter what scenario you kind of you want to paint as far as what altruism looks like for you or how you wanna maybe be of service in some way to your community or participate with like an issue that you feel like you want to change.

Joshua: 00:28:00

It's like when it involves people, it's really, it's really important to recognize actually.

Joshua: 00:28:05

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:28:05

You, you, you do get something out of it.

Joshua: 00:28:07

It's about stepping outside of your comfort zone and growing as a person and.

Joshua: 00:28:11

And you know, there's all, you can read all the, the, the books and there's, you know, all kinds of training courses you can go on.

Joshua: 00:28:17

But I really do think the, the brunt of that for me happens like in real life with, with people.

Carlos: 00:28:23

Mm-hmm.

Joshua: 00:28:23

Like you, you learn so much about one another by spending time with one another.

Joshua: 00:28:27

Of course.

Joshua: 00:28:27

That makes sense.

Joshua: 00:28:28

And yeah, actually I'm, I just do wanna say Anya, I'm really happy you're on the call cause there's some real great stuff coming up here as well, because the, like Gabor Mate and, and this documentary that Anya's just putting the, the link in the chat here, the Wisdom of Trauma is incredibly powerful.

Joshua: 00:28:43

It's very important.

Joshua: 00:28:44

It's a really important document on a lot and it touches on like sort of homelessness, but trauma really broadly speaking as a whole and the work that he's doing.

Carlos: 00:28:53

I just wanted tell, acknowledge um, Anya mention of Brene Brown and uh, the research that she did about wholehearted people and uh, how actually stronger boundaries were important.

Carlos: 00:29:03

Uh, and sort of relating to this idea of yeah, un unconditional love, but also holding the strong boundaries and knowing when to

Joshua: 00:29:11

Yes.

Carlos: 00:29:12

Yeah.

Carlos: 00:29:12

When to, I think not pour from an.

Carlos: 00:29:16

As if you're pouring from an endless and an empty cup.

Carlos: 00:29:19

And Lawrence also mentioned Adam grant's work about give and take.

Carlos: 00:29:23

And I think this is core to what I'm hoping people are gonna hear from this, is we want 'em to feel empowered and I think to, to be able to make change and what that means.

Carlos: 00:29:32

And, and yes, there are big massive systemic things that need to be done.

Carlos: 00:29:37

Uh, and you talked about it before, you know, we could get very political and there's lots of complexity around this.

Carlos: 00:29:42

So how can we bring this down to kind of a simple level?

Carlos: 00:29:46

A, and so I, I just wanted to, because part of it feels like you mentioned it before in terms of the things that we can do and the things that you've done seems to be around storytelling.

Carlos: 00:29:55

And we talked about the why, and so maybe exploring the what and the how a bit more in terms of, you know, how your work has gone out into the world.

Carlos: 00:30:03

Just to give you some context now, you know, you talked about programs that people can learn.

Carlos: 00:30:07

We, we do a program called Vision 2020, and we try to get people to craft their exit strategy.

Carlos: 00:30:12

And, and the thing that I wanted to relate to was this idea of a getting outta your comfort zone.

Carlos: 00:30:16

Mm-hmm.

Carlos: 00:30:16

But also thingify, making something out of these thoughts and ideas and passions we have.

Carlos: 00:30:21

Mm-hmm.

Carlos: 00:30:22

And so, yeah, we're connecting that with your right.

Carlos: 00:30:25

You saw this, you had this experience, you continued to have this experience of cutting hair, and then you took a next step around sharing that experience with people.

Carlos: 00:30:34

Could you talk us through that a bit?

Joshua: 00:30:35

Yeah, of course.

Joshua: 00:30:36

Yeah, you're right.

Joshua: 00:30:36

And it is easy because when you're talking about the really like hardcore emotional side of this, you know, you start sort of, it's a bit of a glass of wine, wine round the dinner table sort of conversation that be gone for like many hours.

Joshua: 00:30:46

Cuz this stuff is, you know, it's, it's, it's really interesting.

Carlos: 00:30:49

Oh, we hope to have that as well with you, Joshua.

Joshua: 00:30:51

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:30:52

Yeah And, and, but you're right to, to sort of talk a bit more about the, the tangible side of this and, you know, what I'd give more in, in a talk and, and why I go and give speeches about this stuff to try and, you know, sort of get all this involved because Do Something for Nothing, basically from the first hacker and from meeting more people, you know, and working in my job, in the sound at the time, I started, well I made the decision to, to start telling these stories on Instagram at the time I, well, you know, it was, it was really actually a point with this, this, you know, this thing that's grown so much since then when you could really grow followers quite quickly if you had a message and you had an idea.

Joshua: 00:31:28

And I started posting, with consent, these stories I'd take a before and after photo of people I'd meet.

Joshua: 00:31:33

Sometimes it's this really big transformation, especially when you've.

Joshua: 00:31:36

Cut someone's hair who maybe might be, you know, might not have had a chance to get that done for a couple years.

Joshua: 00:31:41

And it was amazing because these stories started to, to get shared.

Joshua: 00:31:45

They started circulating online.

Joshua: 00:31:46

Yeah, there was a couple of sort of short video pieces, news articles that went out and um, yeah, it really went viral actually back in 2016, I think there was a BBC video that went out and got like 30 million views or something.

Joshua: 00:31:59

And it just tra it completely took this from the first six months while I was still working in my job and doing this on days off to um, a level where I had to make this decision to continue doing this and I, I left my job.

Joshua: 00:32:12

And the reason for that was, yeah, honestly, just following a feeling like I, I, I feel that perhaps to relate it to business and startup and maybe more so this conversation is like, look, you believe in something, right?

Joshua: 00:32:25

You have an idea.

Joshua: 00:32:26

And you know, the trajectory isn't gonna be this, this, this rise, this steady rise to exactly where it is, you know, whatever your three year, five year plan is for that goal.

Joshua: 00:32:37

It's gonna be ups and downs, you know, and, and, and ebb and flown and all of that.

Joshua: 00:32:41

And I left after six months of doing this because I'd used up on my holiday in the salon and, but you know, I, I'd got to this point where I was just meeting people cause it went and really took off on the internet too.

Joshua: 00:32:54

And I had, you know, hundreds of messages and emails that people wanted to get involved.

Joshua: 00:32:58

I came up with this hashtag do something for nothing and I'd leave that at the end of every post.

Joshua: 00:33:03

And I hope other people would get involved in their own way and.

Joshua: 00:33:05

It, it was amazing to see the way that this expanded to people in different cities with ideas of their own.

Joshua: 00:33:13

Like yoga teachers going into like rehabilitation centers to give their time for free.

Joshua: 00:33:18

Or young people who'd go in and have lunch with older people who didn't have any families to come in and see them and spend time with 'em and have some food with them.

Joshua: 00:33:25

You know, just, there was, there was really tangible skills as well.

Joshua: 00:33:27

Like my friend, she's come become a really good friend now Jade.

Joshua: 00:33:30

She was a vet working at a practice in North London.

Joshua: 00:33:33

She's now set up some good street vet.

Joshua: 00:33:34

She goes out and looks after dogs on the street and animals and gets to know their owners too.

Joshua: 00:33:38

And, you know, from Europe to America to other places in between.

Joshua: 00:33:43

This just started to really pick up some momentum.

Joshua: 00:33:45

I started to go into schools and give talks about this and, my personal belief is that you, it's just as you know, whatever your version of this is great.

Joshua: 00:33:52

Like if you wanna go and volunteer your time for an organization that already exists, if you have money to donate, these things are all really important.

Joshua: 00:34:01

I, I feel that when you use something perhaps that you have as a skill or something you enjoy, maybe it's a hobby.

Joshua: 00:34:09

Maybe it's your passion, things that get you out of bed in the morning, like it keeps you going back to it, you know?

Joshua: 00:34:14

And for me, the, the cutting hair, the creative side of that is, is, is a really important part of the process.

Joshua: 00:34:20

You know, I, I play music as well.

Joshua: 00:34:22

I've, I've put on art exhibitions in, in the past, especially around Do Something for Nothing and what I've done with this, I really am drawn towards the storytelling side of this.

Joshua: 00:34:31

I think that that's my mission here and, and why I do the work I do to draw people in, to really shine a light on this.

Joshua: 00:34:37

I've seen the way that that can actually help and transition people off the street.

Joshua: 00:34:42

And I've had some beautiful experiences with, with people with that.

Joshua: 00:34:45

But your version might be different than that.

Joshua: 00:34:46

But one thing I'd say is just whatever success looks like in the way of material and making money in your business like that, it's awesome.

Joshua: 00:34:53

But I just, without talking about this stuff, without having a touchpoint in your life in some way.

Joshua: 00:35:00

There's a cup for me that was, was not getting filled up that, that is, you know, and I think that everyone's got a different amount of time.

Joshua: 00:35:06

I grew up, you know, in a single parent family, my mom, my, my sister's.

Joshua: 00:35:10

Like I, all I have to do is look in my own past one generation to see how my mom wouldn't, no way, have had the time to do anything that I'm doing right now.

Joshua: 00:35:19

Um, she was bringing up kids and she was doing that like really well with limited resource resources.

Joshua: 00:35:25

So this isn't about dropping your things and going, right, I need to go out and do all these things.

Joshua: 00:35:30

Cause otherwise I'm, you're not like you find your version of this, but it's, it's, it's about um, For me, the same thing as the risk that you might take in business or startup is what I wanted to bring it back to, or the risks that you might take in doing anything on that kind of like spectrum of things.

Joshua: 00:35:46

It's the risk of going outside your comfort zone.

Joshua: 00:35:48

It's the risk of going out there and maybe having this idea to, to impact your community.

Joshua: 00:35:54

Maybe even it starts with this really small thing we're talking about, like a conversation with someone who, who you know you might not have interacted with before whatsoever, and playing out your worst case scenario going like, I'm pretty sure the loss of what happens there if it's not well received is is pretty minimal, you know, to you.

Joshua: 00:36:12

Like I I say that, you know a lot.

Joshua: 00:36:13

I'm like, play out your worst case scenario.

Joshua: 00:36:15

It's, uh, with homelessness, let's like narrow it down to this, subject is like, you know, imagine it's a busy street in the middle of the day and you go up and you think, you know, I'm just gonna go out for a few hours today and just try and just have some conversations with people.

Joshua: 00:36:26

Just sit down.

Joshua: 00:36:28

Cause it all starts there.

Joshua: 00:36:29

You're not gonna allow to help someone more without going out and just sitting and speaking to somebody.

Joshua: 00:36:33

And you go up and you say, Hey, how are you?

Joshua: 00:36:36

And you smile at a person.

Joshua: 00:36:38

You know, what's the worst that's gonna happen?

Joshua: 00:36:40

They tell you to get lost.

Joshua: 00:36:41

They maybe say it with, with profanities and like, with worst language, what have you really lost there?

Joshua: 00:36:45

It's about like, you know, growing thicker skin around this stuff.

Joshua: 00:36:49

I still to this day sometimes have this moment where I know I'm with my backpack and I'm seeing someone I haven't met before and they're there with their sleeping bag and they're across there and I'm like, you know, I have this moment where I sort of have to breathe and go, yeah, this isn't about me.

Joshua: 00:36:59

Like I'm not, the, the reason I'm here right now is not to be, this is not for me to like, be liked or to be like, this is not, it's just, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna give my time.

Joshua: 00:37:09

And if someone might be in a difficult situation, it, it's gonna work out how it's gonna work out.

Joshua: 00:37:14

But I've just stopped holding onto this idea of how things should be in that respect.

Joshua: 00:37:19

But yeah, the, the thing that I, I want to just hammer home quickly is like, I used to think like a smile and how are you, and these things that seem like really almost like I used to think.

Joshua: 00:37:33

Of course.

Joshua: 00:37:34

How are you, seems like a question that's like a silly question when someone's clearly in a difficult position.

Joshua: 00:37:39

Like if I go and just smile and give eye contact to someone and they're gonna ask me for something, I can't give them all, everything they need in their life right now.

Joshua: 00:37:46

So like, I best not really interact with them and, it's actually so fundamentally important and should not be ignored.

Joshua: 00:37:53

Not, not only because they're being seen in that way when you are in a difficult spot is like, actually means a lot to that person.

Joshua: 00:38:00

But I also believe it's the beginning of whatever you want that to look like, to be able to, to, to make an impact in whatever issue you can.

Joshua: 00:38:08

It's like, it starts with a conversation, it starts with listening, it starts with going out.

Joshua: 00:38:12

And if you want to make a difference to whatever it is, like in this world, you gotta, you gotta go out and like listen and yeah, and base it on some experience and, uh, yeah.

Joshua: 00:38:22

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:38:22

That's kind of like a message.

Joshua: 00:38:23

I think.

Carlos: 00:38:24

I like that message in terms of, yeah, there's so many things there.

Carlos: 00:38:28

On one level, there's this idea of I'm going bringing it back to boundaries to make eye contact as, let's say, making eye contact with a homeless person saying how I, how are you?

Carlos: 00:38:37

And they asked you, can I have some money to be able to say, Sorry mate, I'm not gonna give you any money, sorry friend, but I wanna talk to you.

Carlos: 00:38:44

And to do that with strength and, and conviction rather than apology or then suddenly feeling really uncomfortable.

Carlos: 00:38:51

That's what came up for me.

Carlos: 00:38:53

And then, is kind of the stepping out of this comfort zone and not knowing what's gonna happen next, not holding onto this expectation it's all gonna be rosy and suddenly I'm just gonna be like, Joshua and I'm gonna change someone's life by this conversation.

Carlos: 00:39:07

It's like, actually it might go a bit wrong, but then it might go really right.

Carlos: 00:39:11

We have no idea.

Joshua: 00:39:12

Mm-hmm.

Carlos: 00:39:13

But unless we try.

Carlos: 00:39:15

We'll never know.

Joshua: 00:39:16

Yeah, you've gotta enjoy the not being right so far.

Joshua: 00:39:19

I mean, my relationship's just changed so much with the, the stuff that's not supposed to be right.

Joshua: 00:39:23

I sort of relish those moments sometimes if it gets a bit heated and a bit mental, I'm like, cool.

Joshua: 00:39:27

Like, bring it on.

Joshua: 00:39:28

As long as no one's hurt.

Joshua: 00:39:29

Like, you know, it's all just it, it can all just be so, you know, your relationship can be just not as, as heavy as it has to be.

Joshua: 00:39:37

I think you just gotta get better at sitting with some of the suffering in life.

Joshua: 00:39:41

I think I've tried to do some work and I'm still doing work to, to get better at that.

Joshua: 00:39:44

Like if I'm sat with somebody and, you know, they've run out of places in their body to like put this needle and they're like basically Ill, and they're in this really awful situation, I've got this choice to like, carry away from it and go, oh my God, my heart goes out to you.

Joshua: 00:40:00

My heart goes out to you and I, I, I look and I just feel so terrible and so awful.

Joshua: 00:40:03

Or I just sit with it.

Joshua: 00:40:05

I just sit with it and go, okay, look, this is where you're at right now.

Joshua: 00:40:09

This is where we are at right now.

Joshua: 00:40:11

What's going on?

Joshua: 00:40:12

And, you know, almost trying to find the hum the, the lightheartedness within that.

Joshua: 00:40:16

That's really something that's important because I don't go out, heart out all the time.

Joshua: 00:40:23

Because it's like people already know shit's real for them right now.

Joshua: 00:40:28

You know what I mean?

Joshua: 00:40:29

They don't need me gushing my, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

Joshua: 00:40:32

Oh, you're, oh, all the pity and all that emotion.

Joshua: 00:40:35

Like, we don't want that.

Joshua: 00:40:37

We want someone coming along and going, yeah, my life is completely different than yours.

Joshua: 00:40:40

Like, I may not understand how it's, but I'm gonna try and just sit and just be with this and just spend a bit of time, maybe walk a couple steps on that kind of path of empathy here.

Joshua: 00:40:49

And maybe we can have a good time together.

Joshua: 00:40:50

Maybe we can smile, maybe we can laugh, you know.

Laurence: 00:40:53

Mm-hmm.

Joshua: 00:40:53

Uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, yeah.

Joshua: 00:40:56

So, so, but, but, but you know, if there's people listening going, oh wow, this has got very deep, very quickly.

Joshua: 00:41:00

I'm a person who like wants action steps and I want to be able to like, you know, log on here and feel like, what can I do?

Joshua: 00:41:07

Well, honestly, if everybody on this call or anybody who watches this later on catches up with this, like, this message that we're talking about and some of the stuff we're covering here, it really does need people who have the skills time, and probably different brain than I have, the organization brain to be able to like, take this holistic conversation and really advocate for it on like a, a broader scale for society, but not just advocate for it, but also like ways to implement this.

Joshua: 00:41:36

Because what I'm talking about here is a street level altruism, you know, and, and, and, and what we're covering, but.

Joshua: 00:41:44

This is such a simple concept that I feel like could radically improve the numbers, improve the, the chances of people being able to, step forward in a more positive direction with their life.

Joshua: 00:41:55

Like at the moment, the hostile system, the way it looks for people in this situation is so isolating.

Joshua: 00:42:00

There's usually not a common area to commute and to kind of be together.

Joshua: 00:42:04

And, and there's reduced funding in kind of the mental health side of this.

Joshua: 00:42:10

It's being cut massively.

Joshua: 00:42:12

So like whether it's art, whether it's music, whether it's therapy of any kind, whether it's having a buddy to just talk to as you do when you go through certain programs like NA or AA or whatever it may be, but it's like this for me is like the missing piece to the puzzle.

Joshua: 00:42:28

Because it's, yes, it's systemic and it's housing and affordable housing and yes, it's all of the, the things that we need to, as a collective kind of raise people's level of care up.

Joshua: 00:42:38

But I feel like.

Joshua: 00:42:41

This stuff is, is, is so crucial to, to giving people the best chance, uh, like Happiness, at least a chance like Happiness, that they deserve at least a pursuit for that, you know.

Joshua: 00:42:50

So I, I often wonder with this work I'm doing now, what it'll look like in three to five years time, because I, I feel like I am on a bit of a transitional moment.

Joshua: 00:42:59

I wrote the book last year.

Joshua: 00:43:00

I continued to do this work and tell stories, but I think I'm gearing towards trying to take this stuff and actually trying to round table it a bit more to be able to implement it more in the systems that are already in place.

Joshua: 00:43:15

Like the really simple things, the kind of feel good things a level to, to, to help people, you know, feel better and feel more dignified and, and yeah, just give people a better, better chance.

Carlos: 00:43:26

I think I just wanted to just close off on that, this, this idea of like where you've come to and it feels like, through the power of storytelling, through the power of Krenn, something that people can connect with, but also something physical that they can actually read and go through, and I just wanted to pass on to Lawrence a bit here around, you know, our experience of storytelling and our experience of actually making, because it's also about making things people can, can relate to and look and experience.

Laurence: 00:43:54

Well, it's a skill in itself, isn't it?

Laurence: 00:43:56

You talk about hairdressing as a skill, but I think storytelling is a skill that I'm sure you got better at over the years.

Laurence: 00:44:02

But yeah, that's the thing that shown through for me when I came in touch with your work and the book, is just how well told those stories are, how simple the mission is in some ways, like you said, it's such a simple idea that is universal and its simplicity I think.

Laurence: 00:44:16

But but yeah, the one thing we find like color said is lots of people we meet have these ideas but don't action on them.

Laurence: 00:44:23

But yeah, lots of people just struggle with that self-doubt or struggle with the next step in terms of what platform do I use or you know, should I use word, should I do, should I use videos?

Laurence: 00:44:34

It's just that inertia that kicks in.

Laurence: 00:44:36

I think there's always a struggle.

Laurence: 00:44:37

But I think I get the sense with Joshua, it's more about.

Laurence: 00:44:41

When he switches off the overthinking part of his brain, he's able to just go into what's the easiest thing, what's the next thing?

Laurence: 00:44:47

So using Instagram, using that as a way to tell stories.

Joshua: 00:44:50

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:44:50

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:44:51

And I think that that is a really good way to also like, you know, round up too, is like I can sit here now and I can think back to like, Many different countries I've traveled to, organizations, grass roots organizations I've worked with in like a bunch of different cities.

Joshua: 00:45:06

I've been introduced to.

Joshua: 00:45:07

Amazing people, groups of people who are advocating for all kinds of issues.

Joshua: 00:45:11

Like, you know, the stories, the people I've met.

Joshua: 00:45:14

Like, I can think about that body of work, as you said, and, and now a book especially for someone who, you know, failed their GCSEs at high school.

Joshua: 00:45:21

Um, And it's, impossible to start any journey knowing exactly what's gonna happen with those, with those particular moments.

Joshua: 00:45:29

And, and, and I just think it's about building, like you said, it's about building, like it's, it's, it is, I, I, I keep this kind of ethos and, and I have done from the beginning, which is like, It's sort of like a daily thing, really.

Joshua: 00:45:44

And some, sometimes I've, I'm not so good at it and I always think I can do better the next day, but just trying to walk out into the world how I wish to see it, you know?

Joshua: 00:45:53

Like how try my best to each day, just try and find a source to go back to.

Joshua: 00:45:59

And, and then as you said, it's less obsessed with.

Joshua: 00:46:02

Exactly what I'm doing and, and, and, and you know, what that's gonna look like.

Joshua: 00:46:06

But yeah, now I sit here because of that and, and, and good things happen and, and, and, and, and it draws you into people who feel the same.

Joshua: 00:46:13

So yeah.

Laurence: 00:46:14

Mm-hmm.

Joshua: 00:46:15

Planning this stuff, especially basically in summary, like planning this stuff, like the altruistic conversation, the human connection, all that stuff.

Joshua: 00:46:22

It's not really like projecting figures and, and you know, what impact you're gonna create.

Joshua: 00:46:28

I'm not a charity or a not-for-profit, like I don't do that stuff.

Joshua: 00:46:31

I just, I try and go out with my best foot forward and and yeah, connect with other people who feel the same.

Joshua: 00:46:36

And, and, and I think that's a, a good way to start, you know, baby steps.

Joshua: 00:46:40

It's incremental, isn't it?

Joshua: 00:46:41

You gotta just build on, build on that, build on this feeling, you know, more so.

Carlos: 00:46:45

Yeah, we definitely advocate.

Carlos: 00:46:47

What we call the emergent strategy, hashtag winging it.

Carlos: 00:46:50

But um, being present.

Carlos: 00:46:53

I think there's a com What I'm hearing is there's a combination of being present in the moment, but also being true to what, what's driving you in that, that self-awareness that you talked at the beginning.

Laurence: 00:47:02

And also finally, I'd just say that as soon as, well, every time you and Carlos have tried to plan, you sort of look at numbers on a spreadsheet, it starts to lose the passion or the interest.

Laurence: 00:47:12

Uh, and just think about your work and how if you start to think about impact in that way, you, you'd lose the essence of what you're trying to do I sense.

Joshua: 00:47:18

Right, right.

Joshua: 00:47:19

And, and you know, that is something that, I mean, I'm afraid to say, I guess it goes against a lot of like some strategic kind of conversations, whatever, whatever it is you're trying to a achieve.

Joshua: 00:47:29

But honestly, I talk about like low in your benchmark.

Joshua: 00:47:32

For me, it really is actually important to sometimes go, like, you gotta remember, like if you.

Joshua: 00:47:38

In my conversation with my scenario, like, if I can help one person this week, if I can make 'em feel like they're worth something, like they're, they're worth, whatever, you know, like that's, that's a pretty good thing.

Joshua: 00:47:49

That's quite a good, if I can help a few people this year, like feel like they're, they've got another arm around them and maybe someone who gives a shit about them, like, that's, that's quite important, you know?

Joshua: 00:47:58

And it's, it's not a hundred people, it's not thousand people, you know?

Joshua: 00:48:01

But it's, it's, it's, we're in this time and, you know, I know we're running out of time, but we're in this time right now we're like, God, we're.

Joshua: 00:48:09

We do this terrible thing as human beings.

Joshua: 00:48:11

I feeling like we was responsible and we can do more than we actually can.

Joshua: 00:48:16

Like we are just a person with these immediate people around us.

Joshua: 00:48:21

Like, it's so hard, it's so, so hard on ourselves.

Joshua: 00:48:24

We're so hard and it's because we're constantly bombarded with information, but it's like, yes, be informed.

Joshua: 00:48:29

Yes, be aware.

Joshua: 00:48:30

Yes.

Joshua: 00:48:31

Read and do the research and, and, and, and knowledge really is power in that respect.

Joshua: 00:48:36

But I'm talking about lowering your benchmark as far as like, you're just this person and like, you know, you know that, that that's like your, your goal could just be helping out one person over the next few months, and that's gonna mean a lot to them.

Carlos: 00:48:51

Thank you Joshua.

Carlos: 00:48:52

Ah, wow.

Carlos: 00:48:53

So much there.

Carlos: 00:48:54

And hopefully, so we hope everyone who's listening or who will listen to this will get some sense of inspiration and, and energy and en empowerment.

Laurence: 00:49:05

One thing I was, yeah, you can see in the chat already, that ripple effect of helping that one person inspire so many others to go do something a little better every day.

Joshua: 00:49:13

Well, thank you to everyone listening.

Joshua: 00:49:14

Thank you to you guys as well.

Joshua: 00:49:15

Like, you know, being truly vulnerable here, I guess my, my figure's thinking like, bloody hell, I know I can go off on a million different things.

Joshua: 00:49:22

I'm the opposite of a person who's like, here's exactly what he do.

Joshua: 00:49:25

1, 2, 3, here's your thing, here's how you do it.

Joshua: 00:49:27

I'm just like, no, that ain't me.

Joshua: 00:49:29

I just talk a lot and I hope some of that was useful.

Joshua: 00:49:32

Love you a lot.

Laurence: 00:49:32

Absolutely.

Laurence: 00:49:33

I'm conversation.

Carlos: 00:49:34

You're in the right place.

Carlos: 00:49:35

The people in our community, people who follow what we do, the, this is the kind of stuff that they love and this is that human level of, of understanding impact.

Carlos: 00:49:44

So we really appreciate it.

Joshua: 00:49:45

Thanks.

Laurence: 00:49:46

Really grateful.

Joshua: 00:49:46

Yeah, Really appreciate you having me.

Joshua: 00:49:48

Thanks for, thanks for this chat.

Joshua: 00:49:49

It's been great.

Joshua: 00:49:49

Thanks to everyone listening.

Carlos: 00:49:50

Before we leave, is there anything that you'd like to point people to specifically?

Carlos: 00:49:54

We shared the book, was there anything that's going on soon that you'd like to bring people's attention to?

Joshua: 00:49:59

Yeah.

Joshua: 00:50:00

Okay.

Joshua: 00:50:00

Yeah, so, uh, yeah, as far as the shameless plug part of it, I would follow that up and back it up with the book.

Joshua: 00:50:05

You can get it like anywhere.

Joshua: 00:50:07

You just Google do something for nothing.

Joshua: 00:50:08

Cause that's good way to sort of highlight the stories.

Joshua: 00:50:11

But then shameless ask is, If that's part of this, maybe just to edit that on is, is, look, I always give talks about this stuff and I do that in like, education and schools and different things.

Joshua: 00:50:22

And um, yeah, if you have any contacts there, always just give us a shout if you think, you know, I, I I love going and, and talking about this stuff, so if that's something you wanna know more about then, yeah, I think that's it.